Well, it's that time of year again and along with bugling elk and cool fall days also comes a lot of bullsh$*%ers. I dont know how many yeyhoos tell me about the deer or elk they shot at 1000yds. Now I know that there are a select few of you that this is possible,BUT, not for 99% of the hunters out there. I mean please, most guys can't even see 1000yds let alone shoot an animal! Living out west, I do a lot of shooting , and I feel very confident out to 450yds, but I don't even like to shoot that far if I don't have to. So please, give me a break, not only can you not predict wind patterns that far away, but I doubt that most of the hunting rifles out there are even set up to do it.
Hey! let's "keep it real" this fall, buy a range finder and quit lying!!!!
Happy hunting.............wapiti7

Wapiti, I echo your sentiments. Through a lot of practice and learning, I've executed some shots on game out to 500 yards, but it takes a lot being right for that to work for me. I think you are really right on when you say not many rigs are even set up to shoot at 1000!

Here's to getting closer!

Ask one of these long range hunters how far the wind will drift a .300 Mag bullet at 1000 yards and you'll find out real quick who are the shooters and who are the BS'ers. 400 yards is a heck of a long shot, 300 yard shots are really pretty easy with a rest, that next 100 yards doubles the difficulty, and the next 100 doubles it again.

I think that those hunting video's Beyond Belief are sometimes a bad thing. Showing extreme range hunting and showing what gear they use encourage average shooters to take low percentage shots. I personally do not like to shoot anything over 300 yards, and I have yet to find the need to.

I was hunting mule deer on my dad's property with a kid on his first deer hunt. We spotted two bucks at about 250 yards and I asked him where he wanted to shoot from. He said that he wanted to get closer so to make a long story short we got busted and they ducked into the field and we lost sight of them. His dad chewed my butt for not making him take the 250 yard shot on the deer, I told him that his son wanted to get closer, and he said that his rifle was good to 500 yards. I was using a .243 and the kid was using a 6mm Remington, it is doubtful that a 13 year old would get a clean kill on a 250 yard shot if he wasn't comfortable with that range. Needless to say I stopped hunting that day and defiantly gave up the guiding business. The kid finaly did get a nice buck on the third day and the shot was taken at about 100 yards, which is pretty a pretty reasonable shot for most hunting situations.

My longest elk kill is 335 yds with a 30/378 Weatherby. I think I am a little better hunter than to try a 1000 yd shot. I'll stick to sneeking up on them a little closer. My own personal ethics tell me I owe it to the animal.

I like deer at 60 yds standing still or walking very slow.

To me, a buck at 1000 yards is the beginning of the stalk!

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
.... 400 yards is a heck of a long shot, 300 yard shots are really pretty easy with a rest, that next 100 yards doubles the difficulty, and the next 100 doubles it again.

I'll add to that.... 200 yards is pretty easy, 100 yards closer doubles the difficulty, and 50 yards closer than that doubles it again IF WE ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT HUNTING, NOT JUST SHOOTING.

As for the exaggerators - well, it wouldn't be hunting season without a few good "yarns" to laugh at!

What about the ole' boys that have that deer story ever year..."He came out at 500 yards and I just put the hairs on his back and laid the hammer down on him...." Just gives me a smile. A good many hunters will call a lasered 200 yards 400 and a lazered 300 will usually be 5-600 yards. 99.9% of hunters can't accurately field estimate yardage. That's why they make LRFs and they work like a charm. If the animal is past 300 and you don't have a LRF in hand, blind luck is the only thing that will get you a kill.

Reloader

I haven't hunted where you can see at those extended ranges. My longest kill is at a little under 400 about 375 yards. It was pure blind dumb luck. I have just gotten into reloading and one thing the range time has shown me is, HOW GOOD I AM NOT, I am getting better, but my limit I think is 300, and then only under perfect conditions. You guys that can do it I take my hat off to you. I am learning. Thanks for your help.

quote:

Ask one of these long range hunters how far the wind will drift a .300 Mag bullet at 1000 yards and you'll find out real quick who are the shooters and who are the BS'ers

I'll add to this story. I have an aquaintance that tends to BS a little. He was bragging about a doe he shot at 750 yards. He went on and on. Finally I said "How much did you have to hold over?" (Shooting a 300 WIN MAG). He says "None, I just put the crosshairs on her back and fired..."

I just laughed and walked away knowing he was as full of bull as a Christmas Turkey.

At 1000 yards it's not hunting it's shooting. It is not that hard to get under 200 yards on deer or even elk, even in an open field, unless you are just plain lazy.
Erict,
You are so very correct. When you are talking about hunting and shooting you are speaking of 2 different things.

You guys probably wont believe this, but Ive "seen" deer @ 1000 off.. Of corse, that was before the eyes began slip sliding away.

A lot of "geared up" long range hunters dont even realize just how far away 1000 yds is.

Wapiti,

You dont actually think we are going to get through a fall without the Magnum sized egos coming out and the hip boots going on do you?

Lest you forget, hunters are the best BS'ers in the business..

I agree with all of you guys. To me a good hunt is defined how close you can get to an animal to get a clean shot. Prior to my college career it was spot and stock with a 54 caliber sidelock muzzleloader shooting a round ball. The farthest shot I ever took an animal at was 60 yards. With a modern rifle, I am comfortable to 300 yards and beyond that I better try to get closer.

In my experiences, the average shooter using "over-the-counter" rifle is capable of 250 yards. I am going to steal someone's ideas from another forum. You should shoot as many bullets as your distance, meaning 300 yards you should shoot 300 times and in different shooting positions. That way you are familiar with all aspect of the shot.

1000 yards should be best left to Benchrest shooters and miltary snipers.

1000 yds?? Of the guys I hunt with, none of them have a rangefinder that even registers that far out!!

Ok I have two questions. #1. 30378 you are hunting with that big overbore cartridge to shoot Elk under 300 yards or less? Why not use normal 30cal or a 338? #2. How many that posted about getting closer are also using a big overbore or even a magnum? The reason I ask is those big overbores and magnums were made for taking 500 yard+ shots. So if you are only shooting at 300 or less whats the point? Also lets get over the if its past this range it is shooting not huntng. Hunting is finding the game shooting is when the shot is fired at ANY RANGE.

I shoot the 30/378 because my wife bought it one year for Christmas when they first came out. Keeping the peace. Overbore, not if you load it right. You can load it down to 300 Win Mag or crank it up to max. Hunting, loading, all of this is WAY beyond one dimensional.

Wapiti I agree, I wish people could just listen to themselves sometimes about these ridiculously exaggerated shots. Every year I hear some of the 7-8&900 yard shots on Elk and Deer. Couple years ago a guy at work was talking up his 800 or 900 yard Cow Elk story so I asked him " What range is your Rifle sighted in for and how far over this Cow did you hold to hit her? And his reply was not a surprise " I didn't have to hold over at all I shoot a 7MM MAGNUM and when you sight them in for 100 yards they just shoot flat out to over 500 yards so all I did was put it right on her and dropped her".
All I could say was "wow Bill that was some unbeleiveable shooting!" ( I meant every word! ).
For me I am lucky and have had a chance to load and shoot a lot for the past 30+ years, I load all my own and shoot, shoot, shoot. What all this has taught me is that 400 yards is a LONG way past 300 yards and anything past 450 isn't going to get shot by me. I've only attempted a handful of shots over 350 yards and I've been patient and lucky and made excellent shots on all the long ones attempted. My Two longest shots were a Bull Elk at 425 yards ( dropped with a 30/06 ) and an Antelope at 400 on the nose ( dropped with 2 shots from a 22/250, after the first shot he just stood there so I hit him again ).
In defense of us Western shooters sometimes there is no opportunity to get any closer than a long poke at them. Take for instance the Bull I shot at 425 yards these Elk came out of a finger of dark timber heading across the open to a further patch of timber walking, I had a rest on my backpack over a log when they came out in the open I was across a basin from them there was no chance to get any closer as any direction you would go was only taking you further away from them and if I hiked the hour over to them they would be gone and even if they were there then I'd be on the same hillside with them and no shot till I was on them which means no shot with a herd of elk.
I prefer to have them all at under a hundred yards standing broadside but it doesn't seem to happen that way.
The experienced shooter who practices at 300 and 400 yards and knows his rifle and who has the morals to pass on the shot if the angle is wrong or wind is uncertain or other game too close to the intended target are the guys in my opinion who are qualified to take the long shots.
Remember we are not Military Snipers who can be just as effective wounding the target ( taking it out with a wound or a kill eliminates the target) as killing it, these are animals that deserve that one clean killing shot that we should deliver to them.
Whatever you do don't shoot beyond your abilities game animals are not target practice.

I like those stories too Snellstrom, they get me chuckling everytime.

It might be just me, and I don't include 7mm Magnum shooters that actually know what they are doing, but to me its always the guys who have a 7mm Mag or a 338 Mag that tell those stories.

I worry about people that try to shoot live game at 1,000 yards. Something tells me there is a lack of respect for animals somehow mixed in there.

I would get a thrill from hitting a silhouette at 1,000 yards, but feel guilty if I ever attempted such a shot on live game. I think I've been a hunter too long.

One of my dreams is to hit a praire dog or ground hog at over 500 yards.

I have met guys that have, and have even tried to shoot 500 yard targets (pretty hard if you are not familar with wind drift). The amount of equipment and care needed for a 1000 yd varmit shot convinces me that most of these guys who claim to take big game at such ranges are doing so with a typewriter.

30378 I can see keeping the peace I just thought it was funny for that big overbore 30 never to get to stretch its legs. It takes a lot of knowledge and practice to shoot long range. Longrange to me is over 500 yards. 500 yards or less to ME is a normal shot but I do not shoot much under 300 yards anymore so maybe thats why. No it is just not the 7mm shooters I hear all the time that they just held right on with the old 06 and the deer was at 500 yards. I also had a guy pull up one day when I was shooting in my neighbors field working up a load for my 300win. He gets out and says what are you doing I was trying to be friendly so I said oh just working up a load for my 300. He asks how far are you shooting I said 305 yards. Then he looks at my rifle and say thats a nice scope what power is it. I said it a 6-24 then he says well with a scope like that you should have all those rounds touching. I said really? Then he goes off about how they used to shoot 20 rounds in a milk cap at 300 meters when he was in the army with a 30/06 and he told me he was a old sniper. Now I know a real sniper and the first thing is they do not go around telling people they were a sniper. So I thought well lets ask him some questions. I said well what bullet did you use? He replies oh we used 55gr accelerators and they only drop 10inches from 100 meters to 1000. After that I knew he was full of shit. I said well nice talking to you and put my ear muffs back on and got ready to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Wapiti, I echo your sentiments. Through a lot of practice and learning, I've executed some shots on game out to 500 yards, but it takes a lot being right for that to work for me. I think you are really right on when you say not many rigs are even set up to shoot at 1000!

Here's to getting closer!

What a great discussion. The truth Fish30114 is that not that many rifles are set up for 500yds and even fewer shooters.

I practice at knowm ranges to 300yds. I plink at unknown ranges beyond that and confine my game shooting to well under 300yds. My rifles are sighted in to Max PBR w/8" vital zone and I live within that on game. Max PBR is calculated with my cronograph and the checked with live firings. My 243 is a coyote rifle and uses a 5" vital zone. Max PBR is about 275yds w/75gr V-Max. That is a long shot at an animal the size of a coyote.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
I think I've been a hunter too long.

Perhaps you have been a hunter long enough rather than too long!

While I have confidence of being able to hit a target at those distances, if one knows the distance, say via a range finder.. and one has a very stable rest.....

HOwever, I don't have confidence in a bullet being able to do its job humanely....

I don't advocate it for the novice.... and I include Seafire on my list of Novices...

but on optic,I just came across this web site I thought I would share with you guys....would be interesting to watch to both potentially learn something, but also check out the myths....

cheers
seafire


http://www.thebestofthewest.net/longrangeshootingforhunters.html

I WILL not say that deer at 1000yds is impossible with a first or second round. I will say it is impossible to do it with 99.9% of the equipment most people take into the field with them. I will also say it is fairly impossible for 99.9% of the shooters to hit anything at that range with a first or second round because they have no concept of what their gun, bullet or themselves are capable of at that range.

I used to shoot at LEAST 1000 rounds at 1000 yards every year, because I enjoy the discipline required to do it well and I have about a ten minute drive to a place where I have over 1700yds of range to play on..
and since the last forest fire I have an equivelant of an artillary range measured in MILES if I had the gun for it.

I will say when you are used to shooting at a 12" circle at 1000 yds, a deer or caribou or any other "large game animal" at 600 yds seems pretty close in comparison. Especially if you are hunting/shooting with the same equipment you shoot at 1000yds.
You do get to judge the wind and weather and range fairly well. Also for any rifle I may use at distance I keep a windage/drop table taped to the rifle for the load in the gun.
My longest game shot to date was using a heavybbl .308 on a car hit deer that was dragging itself across a beet field. At the time I was in LE and the rifle was part of my carry "kit"(rural dept in a very rural area with a mutual response agreement, so everyone was ready all the time) I estimated the distance at 650 with almost zero wind and pulled the trigger. Now maybe the deer chose that specific moment to die and I missed but I don't think so. No one was volunteering to slog the beet mud to check the COD, but I believe it was the Sierra 175gr Matchking.

NOT advocating 1000yd shots,
but I know some guys who shoot steel buffalo targets with BLACK POWDER at 1000yds with cartridges that look like bananas and they will amaze you with the way they hammer at that range with IRON sights.

Target shooting, I've shot a lot farther than most, but if you can't get within 400 yards (realistically 300 yards) of big game, you've got some problems, and shooting is the least of your worries. Quite a few people can shoot at long range. Many more have no business pulling the trigger at 300 yards. If you don't regularly practice long shots, or if there is much breeze at all, NO ONE has any business trying to reach out there with their weapon. JMHO

gd

My longest deer shot was 307 yards on a Mule deer in Sonora. I reloaded, turned around and shot a second one a similar distance (I only got the yardage on the first). Win mod 70, 270win, 140gr TSX @ 3000fps, Zeis VM/V 3-9x42 scope, used Stoney Point sticks (the long ones) standing up. I didn't like that as much as kneeling, but because of the brush, had to.

I don't remember, but it didn't seem as if the deer looked too small to make me feel uncomfortable. Ironically, I do remeber the elk I shot at 279 yards, (Win mod 70 300Win 180 TSX @ 3000 fps, Swarovski 3-10x42). My guide has a set of collapsable sticks, sitting, but they felt very unsteady. As far as I can remember, the elk seemed small, so go figure.

I do feel comfortable shooting to 300 yards without hesitation. I don't think I'd shoot at a deer over 350 yards unless I had to, but I don't. Elk/moose I'd go 350 with an appropriate rest without thinking.

Optics, knowing your drop and a rest are important. The most important thing with long range shooting is knowing when not to pull the trigger.

Last winter a friend of mine and me were quite humbled shooting with some wind at long range(300-400 yards). We both ended up harvesting caribou but did not do it the way we like to. The open tundra can be real tough for range estimation...many times you shoot at animals and they are alot farther than you think they are.

After the many-shots-at-one-animal humbling experience we borrowed a rangefinder and set up some targets at 200, 300 and 400 yards. The wind was not blowing that hard, but we felt like we really stunk it up. We decided that our max range should be more like 300 without any wind and 200 with wind. I shoot a 280 and he has a 300 win mag. The 300 and 400 yard targets with 5-15 mph variable winds made us feel foolish for taking the 350+ yards shots with 20-25mph winds. Have you looked at what a 150 grain 7mm bullet (2800 fps)does at 300 yards with a 10 mph wind???? The thing that is really eye opeing to me is the difference between drift at 300 to 400 yards with 20mph winds.

With some practice, the distance is a variable that is easy to overcome. With wind, I think the amount of practice would have to be enormous to make me comfortable taking a long shot in windy conditions.

My experience and my conclusions don't need to change someone else's behavior, but I reccomend that at some time everyone sits down with pencil, paper, a calculator and a reloading book. Could change your opinions on what you think you can do. Make a range card, go to the range on a windy day and see if you can kill an elk at 450 yards........

-phil

This was posted on Long Range Hunting Forum

Long Range Hunting Fourm

Bull elk @1302 yards
A good friend of mine called me about a week ago and told me he had a brother who had drawn a limited entry bull elk tag for the Wasatch unit in Utah. He said his brother didn't have a real accurate gun and was wondering if I would help them out by letting him use the 338 thunder. He also told me that they had spotted lots of bulls, but most of them were out of range of normal guns and since his brother has bronchitis and arthritis, a long range plan might be in order.

Well, how could I turn that down?!

So, Friday night we scouted and found a good bull up high but a bad storm left the high country with dang near impassible roads so we decided to hit some mountains in our backyard. Saturday afternoon found us glassing some nice country full of elk. We found a local bull that has become fairly well known in the area as the biggest bull on the mountain face but because of where he was, most people with tags have left him alone. That's because he was on a super steep, super thick and nasty mountain face that you literally have to "pull" your way through. Very bad spot for older knees and lungs.

Anyhow, we watched him Saturday until nightfall and put him to bed. The plan being to get out there at first light and locate him and dump him from long range.

Sunday morning. We found him first thing and not more than 100 yards from where he was bedded down for the night. So we drove our rigs up to the top of a little hill and started getting things thrown in our packs. 7mmrhb stayed down below with a spotting scope and walkie talkie to inform us of the bull's movements as we started the hike to our pre-planned shooting spot.

Uncle B and I had all the shooting gear and optics in our packs and my friend and his brother had fairly empty pack frames for lugging meat out.

Because of my buddy's brother's bad health, it took us awhile to get to our shooting spot but we finally made it. The bull we wanted was up and herding cows and seemed unaware of us 3/4 of the mountain down below. I quickly got the rifle rest set up and the crosshairs on the bull. A quick look to the ACI and it said .91 cosine. The GPS said we were at 5300 or thereabouts and my thermometer said it was 42 degrees. The bull was ranged at 1302 with the Swaro rangefinder (which immediately gave a bounceback in the pre-dawn light) so I plugged everything into my computer and it said to dial up 22.75 IPHY from my 326 yard zero. Up the scope went and then a quick check on the wind and there was not even a breeze. Uncle B was on the Leica 77 spotter and 7mmrhb on my Swaro 80 down below so we had good coverage of the shot.

Ward got comfortable and squeezed the trigger. Boom! After about a 1.5 second flight time, the bullet made a thud. The bull turned his head like he had been hit and something seemed wrong. He took a few steps and then started backing up while his cows started scramming out of there. I quickly chambered a new round for my buddy's brother and settled the crosshairs back on the bull. "Fire when ready" I told him, the gun is pointed at him and is perfectly steady". Boom! A long pause and then a clear "crack" came back as the bullet entered his front quarter and broke bone.

The bull quickly turned downhill and went crashing into some aspens. We knew right then that we had our bull!

So with 7mmrhb keeping an eye on him from below, we packed all our gear up and headed up the unbelievably steep mountain ahead of us. It took us about 3 hours to go about 600 yards up the ridge and another 3 hours to cut across over to the bull. THe scrub oak and aspens were so thick that I dared not put my gun or pack or varmint rest down for fear of never finding them again! So we lugged ALL our gear up the 3000 foot vertical ascent to the kill site. Once there, we found the bull had slid down into some really thick, nasty aspens and would be in a bad place to work on.

Upon inspection, we found the first shot low and back in the neck and the second shot in the front quarter. It looked to be about a 10" group. No bullet has been found yet, but still lots of butchering and trimming left to do to the meat. I will show a pic of the bullet if we find it. The neck shot went straight through leaving a half-dollar sized exit hole.

After de-boning him and taking the cape and horns off, we loaded up our packs with meat and headed out. We got about halfway down the mountain before it got dark so out came the headlamps and it was another hour and a half after dark when we reached the truck. What a rough day but it was worth it!!

Congrats to W.T.! We knew you could do it! Thanks to my friend for the invite and for a great day. I hope you can get the rest of that meat out tomorrow with your lammas. Thanks to Uncle B and 7mmrhb for your big parts in the hunt.
We couldn't have done it without the entire team effort. And we couldn't have done it without the long range capability. The time restraints, health restraints, and location of the bull made it a "long range only" kind of hunt.

One of my greatest learning experiences was when I purchased a LRF. Now I go around estimating the range and checking it with the LRF. If you want to really screw yourself up guess the range to a storefront across the street at night. It will range quite a bit different than what you think.
When I first got the LRF I was looking at two rolled ridges on the same side of the canyon as me. Figured the far one would be my extreme max capability of 350-400 and the close ridge being around 250. They ended up ranging at 300 and 500. Glad I didn't see any bucks over there, I'd have ended up looking silly and wasting ammo.
My longest shot to date has been 286 yards. pretty comfortable with that distance but I'd much rather get them at 15 yards, WAY more exciting.

Had a guy tell me one day he just shot and wounded an elk at 600, running. I asked where? and he said 400 yards through the woods here to the clearing. The clearing was no more than 200 yards. I believe the wounded part of the story, he had a long day tracking that one in the snow.
Great thread
Best advice I ever heard was to aim at hair not air because for every critter undershot there are 9 overshot, due to over-estimation of range no doubt. That one I believe every word, and it works too.
Joe

It's funny that none of the responses have even touched on "angle" as a variable in "real life" long range shooting, especially in the West. I don't hunt anywhere you are going to shoot a flat 600 yards, let alone 1000 yards (unless it's straight across three drainages. Here's a simple shooting problem that may confront many hunters in the Western US. You're shooting a .300 Win mag, using 165 grain nosler ballistic tips at 3200 feet at a mule deer a lasered 500 yards from the top of a drainage to the bottom at a 45% angle. What's the bullet drop and can you shoot right at the deer?

quote:

You're shooting a .300 Win mag, using 165 grain nosler ballistic tips at 3200 feet at a mule deer a lasered 500 yards from the top of a drainage to the bottom at a 45% angle. What's the bullet drop and can you shoot right at the deer?

Shoot as if it is 353 yards. Not sure of this exact load, but I'd guess about 10 to 11 inches of bullet drop. Leave the crosshairs on his back but still on hair.

I killed a deer at over 12,000 yards about six years ago.

I was shooting a 155mm howitzer. We were fring high angle missions (somwhere around 40 degrees of elevation above the horizontal). It took 62 seconds for the round to reach its target. About 20 seconds after the rounds had been fired one of the forward observers called a cease fire due to animals in the impact area. The rounds were already in the air by that time so there wasn't much we could do. The FO said the results were pretty ugly.

quote:

I like deer at 60 yds standing still or walking very slow.

Its hard to beat an honest man!

And I'll do that one better: I'll take a deer out to a hundred yards, stopped and looking the other way. ...And hopefully standing between me and the road too.

quote:

Originally posted by GA DEER HUNTER:

quote:

You're shooting a .300 Win mag, using 165 grain nosler ballistic tips at 3200 feet at a mule deer a lasered 500 yards from the top of a drainage to the bottom at a 45% angle. What's the bullet drop and can you shoot right at the deer?

Shoot as if it is 353 yards. Not sure of this exact load, but I'd guess about 10 to 11 inches of bullet drop. Leave the crosshairs on his back but still on hair.

With all due respect, you are wrong GA Hunter. You are guilty of regurgitating the same bullshit most outdoor writers have written for years - hold for the horizontal distance.

The correction is 1-cos(angle) X total bullet drop (total bullet drop being drop from a barrel parallel to earth). Assuming 50 total inches of bullet drop in the above example, our bullet will strike 14.5 inches higher than without an angle. So if you zeroed at 200 yards, you would hold about 21 inches high. The "hold for the horizontal distance" theory would have you hold for 11 inches of bullet drop, which would clearly cause a miss.

The "hold for the horizontal distance" theory will cause you to miss low, or in the case of a rifle sighted in for 300 yards, to hit high at ranges less than 300 yards. It takes a bullet longer to fly 500 yards than 353, angle notwithstanding. The reason the bullet hits higher than on level ground is because of the angle of the target and the distance of the bullet from the line of sight.

What are the rules regarding hunting elk with spotting scopes and walkie-talkies in Utah? Anybody know?

quote:

Originally posted by wapiti7:
Well, it's that time of year again and along with bugling elk and cool fall days also comes a lot of bullsh$*%ers.

These days I am more tempted to get out binoculars and watch awhile before starting to cut the distance down to something like a fifth of that 1000 yards, maybe learn something new.

Without a LRF, it"s just irresposible guesstimation after 200/250 yds. Most of the LRF"s I"ve seen (including my own!) don"t work reliably past 400/450 yds.
Yesterday I was shooting 1 litre milk jugs out to 350 mtrs in wind and rain. Lying prone, on a good rest I could relaibly hit a 5x9 inch container. Further than that, I could"nt hold the LRF steady enough to get a reading.
I was holding about 5 inches into the wind, and just below the first reticle down on my Leupold Varmint Hunter. I also had the advantage of being able to shoot at the center of a bullseye target first, the walk out and see the strikes.I marked the strikes, walked back to the firing point and saw where the strikes were in the scope, and then just held that poinmt on the target.
For anyone to be shooting at that distance, or further without accurate range measurement and a range card is just irresponsible cruelty.
good shooting

quote:

Without a LRF, it"s just irresposible guesstimation after 200/250 yds. Most of the LRF"s I"ve seen (including my own!) don"t work reliably past 400/450 yds.

The Swarovski will range reliabley to at least 1000 tards umder even the worst condition, under good conditions mine has ranged to 1900 yards.......