Where have all the high country mule deer gone? Gone to cougers, every one (Peter, Paul and Mary, I beg your forgivness).

Let's get one thing straight right off the bat. I hate predators -- especially those that negatively impact game that I like to hunt. Here in Georgia, it's coyotes and red-tail hawks, among others, that have assured that small game hunting, especially quail hunting, is a distant memory of the past.

In the past, predator control was a major, if not the major, tool of game management. Today, predator control is not even mentioned as a management tool. In fact, most effective predator control actions are against the law. We should strive to LOVE predators is the message delivered by game departments, the news media and our education system. After all, predator populations are barely hanging on.

Bullshit! Predator populations are at an all time high, as compared to the available habitat. And sometimes I think that I am the only one who knows it.

Now, that brings me to the couger problem out west. I've heard every explanation in the world presented as to why there has been such a dramatic decline in the mule deer population in the high country. However, no one wants to admit the obvious -- the mule deer decline coincides with the couger population explosion. Just consider this, a male couger will kill up to 50 deer a year. A female with kittens may double this amount.

Last season in Colorado, we hunted a corner of a ranch where the usual large populations of game had disappeared. Then we found out why -- couger. We found fresh tracks crossing a CRP field. I asked the ranch owner what I should do if I happened to see one of the cats. He smiled and said "what I don't know won't hurt me."

That reminds me of the ranchers near Yellowstone who have to deal with introduced wolves. They adopted the "shoot, shovel and shutup" slogan to deal with the problem. Frankly, I wish they had managed to kill them all. That's all we need -- more predators impacting game.

What are your thoughts on this subject? Is shooting cougers for game magagement reasons really wrong? (OK, I already know that the chances of seeing a couger without a set of hounds is somewhere between slim and none.)Would you shoot one (out of season) if the opportunity presented itself? And, would it be so bad if mountain lions were sent into a major decline?

Sorry I rambled so much. It's really an emotional issue for me. Like I said -- I HATE PREDATORS!

I think its great that I can still go to a few places in America where man, if not for his guns, would be just another link in the food chain. It helps to keep me hunble.
I found your remark about hating the predators that took the game you liked to hunt very reveiling.

I dont hate predators but there are a lot of people in CO. who do. The guy I hunted Elk with wont even bother booking Mulie hunts anymore the CO. population has plummeted so. Overhunting was a major reason, as was changeing habitat, but if I heard ONE major reason from the folks there it was the Lion population.

A DNR can say what it wants but ranchers and hunters are out on the land more and they SEE when a population is down, or up. Lions are definately up!

While I dont want to see the cats exterminated I dont blame the folks out there for being angry about the "Politicizeing" of game management. And I suspect, since their Govt. failed them, that some will take the matter in their own hands..............10

Ditto Beemanbemes remark, I did get a chuckle out of that fourth sentece myself.

While I certainly believe that game management by politicians is outrageous, I also realize that I too am a predator, and no more special than the others. However, when the need becomes apparent, It would be "natural" for me to keep competing predators in check. Here in Oregon, a group from Ca. with big $$$, managed to convince voters that it was cruel to hunt cougars/bears with dogs. The consequence is that now I see 1 or 2 cougars per year in deer season. I worked in the woods for 15 years and saw only one cougar in that time. We can still hunt them, though I don't. Human/cougar contact is becoming commonplace. I suspect that in time our own deer populations will be affected. The lousy thing about the aforementioned ballot measure was that the game people were not allowed to publicly enter the discussion, as they are not to influence policy. To bad, I thought that we pay them to do just that, in their field of expertise. Silly me-------ChuckD

Funny, But I find it pretty hard to "hate" preditors just because they are doing what comes naturally. So a few hunters go without so many deer...no big deal. On the other hand I don't believe that preditors should be put on a conservation pedestal either. They should be managed just like any other resource out there....

Like pete said they are fun to have around if we could hunt them. Hunting wolves and cats can be great fun. Throuble I have with the whole idea is that the anti's don't want you to hunt them and they lie about there numbers so you can't.

I think if you're managing your own land you have a great deal of discretion as to how you deal with the wildlife, particularly out West. If you can prove livestalk damage the DOW folks are usually very cooperative and no laws need be broken.

When on public land the issues are different - which is why I'd like to see no more public lands.

Unfortunately here in Colorado a lot of private lands, due to poor game management, are becoming breeding grounds for Chronic Wasting Disease - and in these areas Cougars are the best alternative to legal hunting in keeping the disease under control.

As I suspected, "new ageism" has found its way into the hunting population. Think about it, what was our attitude toward cougers and wolves 30 or 40 years ago -- they were shot on sight -- many times with a government agency's blessing in the form of a bounty. Today, "we (humans) are just another part of the food chain." Peace baby!

Get ready to turn in your guns guys. PETA is winning!

My favorite maxim on cougars: the three Ss (shoot, shovel and shut-up). There, I said it. Flame me.

Jordan

It is interesting to see the respondants against major predator control all come from East of the Mississippi.

People who want predators as a major part of the Western ecosystem know little of the existing ecosystems out here. There are millions of acres of summer/fall range for our ungulate populations, but the winter range is miniscule in carrying capacity. Deer, elk, sheep, moose, etc are trapped between Main street and deep snows (with very few exceptions). This makes them easy prey for predators. We humans have decimated the winter ranges, and changed the ecosystems so that wolves, cougars, coyotes should have a smaller place in it. Even Yellowstone's ecosystem is incomplete.

And a cougar can easily kill 50 mulies a year. Here in Utah we have an estimated population of 4,000 cats (conservative). 4,000 x 50 = 200,000 dead deer. Our Mulie population is around 400,000. Then 20,000 hit by cars, 35,000 harvested by hunters. ??? by coyotes. See why our mulies havn't recovered??

-Oh yea. We planted 26 bighorns to their historical range a couple years ago. 5 dead the first week by cougars. The DWR sent out the Gov't hunters and they shot 14 cougars in 1 week in a 4 square mile area.

There is room for predators, just not that many.

Mgc, sorry, I lived almost twenty years west of the big river. (okla) And I've hunted, camped and traveled extensively in Colo and Wy so I understand your anger against the cliff dwellers "back east" minding your business. I assume that you own a working ranch and make your living raising sheep or cattle. Oddly, however, few ranchers that I've talked to would like to see the predators eradicated. Controlled yes but what is the point of living 50 miles from town if all you have to look at is sheep?

Loren what? No more public land? So I guess you would have shopping malls and condos on you hunting land? Belive me, I do live in the east, and if it is not public land somebody is going to build something on it. So long hunting. Ungulates, predators everything. I believe that predators should be hunted to reasonable levels to maintain a fear of humans in all the predators, provided there are sufficient for a few to make it. "D"

You should be called GAKILLER and not dishonor the name HUNTER.

There, got that off my chest.

Firstly, predators (Cougars, Coyotes, Bears, Wolves) have their place in the grand scheme. YES, their no's DO need to be controlled through hunting now that we compete with them for the same game. HOWEVER, I don't know one genuine hunter who wishes to see them exterminated. My best friend is one of those "Yellowstone Ranchers" of which you speak. He's had to have Grizzly Bears trapped-off his place, and does lose some sheep to Cougars and Wolves. Still, he loves the wild places and believes they're not truly wild without these animals... I feel the same.

We do, however, need a season on wolves. They breed like rabbits. They have, however, killed-off roughly half of the coyotes in Yellowstone Park.

Brad Amundson

<<<<<<<<<It is interesting to see the respondants against major predator control all come from East of the Mississippi>>>>>>>>>

MGC I think you made this statement without thinking. First off it isnt true , secondly even the individual States shouldnt be allowed to make these decisions. CO. has as many , or more , liberals as many Eastern States.

These are decisions that must be made by Professional Wildlife Managers..........period! They dont belong on a voteing ballot and they arent populast decisions.

Only a professional is trained to manage these animals , and , due to the encroachment of humans they must be managed. Even if hunting wasnt the right of every American , and , a big slice of our evolution. They would still need to be managed by culling.

Been to Vail lately ? Or Denver ? You shouldnt want Lion decisions being made by populast vote in your own state any more then you'd want "Easterners" decideing them.

Strange but when I gave 4 years of my life to my country there was no question on the form if I was an "Easterner" , "Westerner" , "Northerner" ,or "Southerner"..................10

Being a top predator I happen to be uncommonly fond of other predators. The idea of hating them strikes me as worse than absurd or comical. It is downright pathological. I admire their hunting craft. I don't even view them as competition, though perhaps as prey and yes, I would support management by hunting of predators.

But let's address the fundamental premise of this rant. The deer population out west is plummeting due to cougars? Show me the data! That quick calculation of 4000 x 50 = 200,000 would result in zero mule deer in about five years. Predators are self limiting (unlike humans), but they require large game populations, about 400-to-1. High country winter pressure may well be a major problem but who caused that to happen? Disease is more of an issue I bet. My brother found about forty dead deer on his Montana farm in just a few hundred acres this fall. The real problem is that man is both reducing the range of the habitat and also increasing the hunting pressure. Maybe we should cut back on hunting deer? Or is that out of the question?

Also, this rant was started by a "cliff dweller" from Atlanta. And don't lump me in with your view of "our attitude" toward predators 40 years ago. That was driven by farmers and big business who would rather see every last predator be exterminated than lose just one head of cattle. That kind of thought process reminds me of my friend's dad, when I told him about an awesome gorge that I discovered on some hunting land near where I live. He told me I ought to buy it and turn it into a landfill and I could make a fortune.

All I can say about the suggestion that hawks have spoiled somebody's quail hunting opportunities is that if I ever see a quail hunter dusting a hawk with his shotgun, he'll rue the day.

Harold,
The problem with preditor protection programs in most states is that it is all consuming..there is no common since in the programs, especiall the Federal Govts policy on preditory birds which is a damn joke.

At one time Idaho had the greatest population of Pheasant in the US and the protection of birds of prey has diluted that population to zilch when combined with habitat distruction and hunting...

You can drive from Twin Falls to Sun Valley and see a hawk on near every telephone poll, house cats abound wild on farms and foxes and coyotes are thick because fur prices are down. Lions are more common than ever. the damn Magpies are destroying nests because they are the National Bird of Mexico, albiet our Magpie is not the same bird that Mexico recognizes, I never have figured that one out...Uncle SAm at his best...

We are shooting the game and not the preditors, Now I ask you, does that strike you as sound management policy OR politics based on emotions...

I think your emotions are flooded my friend, nature is out of balance and we must manage it to suit our needs and we must do this in an intelligent and responsible way and that includes hunting the preditors and the game animals, and keep them in balance..Most of us given a choice prefer the game animals wheather you like that decision or not..I prefer a balance and I don't hate any animal other than some humans...

All I'm saying is preditors need some controls.

Also be carefull who you jump if you catch them shooting a hawk, you to may rue the day, it may be Jeffery Donner or OJ Simpson, Osama Bin L, who knows

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I have seen areas completely devoid of mule deer pronghorn, or whitetails that had hundreds the year before. It was caused by lions, we found one canyon completely littered by bodies of deer that were killed by the lions. The deer couldn't get out of the canyon because of the deep snow, but the cats came in and feasted all winter. The same year while I was elk hunting, I saw lion tracks every day; my nephew shot one of them(legally with his bow).

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JD

OK, I'll go into some detail as to why I started this rant. It actually has little to do with cougers, other than the fact that the ranch owners I know in Colorado are convinced that cougers are the primary reason that mule deer have virtually disappeared from the high country. They claim that in the 50s and 60s the high country was full of deer and couger tracks were seldom encountered. Today, cougers are seen with some regularity and deer are almost never encountered. They believe that the only thing keeping mountain lions from from flooding over to the valleys are the large populations of elk in the area that keep the lions sated now that the deer have all been eaten. And still, more and more lions are being encountered down low. They even found a female raising cubs in their barn last year.

What REALLY ticks me off is happening right here in GA. I am a quail hunter. But if I want to hunt wild quail, I am either going to have to pay a thousand bucks a day on a 10,000 acre plantation, or go to another state, like Texas, where they still have quail. Now, the state DNR has put out all kinds of propaganda on why quail have disappeared: modern farming practices, timberland management, and the elusive "unknown reasons" when quail are missing from habitat that 50 years ago would hold healthy populations. They never even mention predator proliferation, because to do so would be politically incorrect.

Unfortunately for the state and its politically correct attitude, Auburn University, along with a quail management research station in North Florida called Tall Timbers, have done extensive research into the bobwhite's decline and have come up with the undisputible fact that the explosion in predator populations is a primary cause for the quail's demise.

In the 1800s, predators, including raptors, were shot on sight by virtually all farmers -- and there were a LOT of farmers in the South. Consequently, small game was allowed to prosper. Today, anyone who would dare to harm a raptor not only is breaking federal and state law, but ostricised in the press and community. Therefore, few farmers bother.

I still remember the first red-tailed hawk I ever saw -- I was 12! Today, I have to guard my dog's litter of puppies when they are out in the yard because two hawks have made it a goal to steal one. Hawks are everywhere, and no one ever even thinks about doing something to reduce their populations.

Recently, a bunch of landowners near Albany, GA had had enough and did something to protect their quail hunting interests. They distributed poison-laced quail eggs on their plantations. Did it help? Yes, but the end result was arrest and state charges. Then environmental groups got involved and 11 plantation owners, owning over 300,000 acres, were brought up on federal charges of impacting protected species (raptors). In other words, give it up, quail hunting will be sacrificed to the gods of "new ageism".

And I won't even go into the former wildlife management area in Florida which has been closed to deer hunting because the deer there are needed to feed the four or five panthers that reside in the area.

I don't want all predators gone (with the exception of those introduced over the objection of the local population), but I do want their numbers reduced to reasonable levels.

[This message has been edited by GAHUNTER (edited 02-24-2002).]

Until then F&G change their tune in the west I personally will be shooting and not bothering to shovel!!!!

Ray, I am not opposed to hunting predators. What I take exception to is the idea that anything that competes with man's unrestrained desire for endless consumption of nature must be destroyed utterly. If wild predators need culling, I submit that humans need culling in a worse way. Nobody evertalks about managing OUR appetite or population. Why is that?

The real reson why we have few quail in the South is not raptors, which are still relatively few in number, but rather the damn coyotes that have been moving in here over the last twenty years. Now if you want to shoot coyotes by the truckload, be my guest. They are not part of this ecosystem (till recently) and they are wiping out the quail, turkey, and deer and also crowding out the foxes that did live here. Feral cats are a problem I know. My brother lived on a pheasant and grouse farm in Montana till this past fall. He shot cats and weasels regularly.

We've got cougars back home. I have seen one in my home town late one night and I know others who have seen them. We also have more deer than you can shake a stick at. The cougars have been around forever and it hasn't made a dent in the deer population in that part of the state. Cougars may not be hunted under any circumstances.

I still don't buy the argument that because I see few deer (out west) and I see the odd occasional cougar that all the deer clearly were killed by cougars. The cited instance of the dead deer in the canyon proves nothing my friend. Those deer may have frozen, starved or died from disease and been scavenged for all you know. I am not disputing the likelihood that the cougar population is up and that it may need culling. That may well be true. I am just skeptical that this is THE CAUSE of the deer decline out west. It certainly had nothing to do with the very sharp decline in the deer population in NE Montana this year. Colder winters, reduced range, hunting pressure and disease are the major causes I still believe.

I live in far northeastern Kalifornia---where the Cougar has become the de facto state animal. I enjoy seeing a Cougar in the wild (granted it is a rare event since they are so secretive---in my entire life I have seen one). However I object to the management ethic which grants them such protection as to permit their populations to skyrocket to the point where I can no longer enjoy my favorite sport: trophy mule deer hunting.

A few years ago I spoke with some friends back in my home territory of Cache Valley, Utah who told of cougar tracks covering virtually every deer track coming out of the canyons in the winter and an anecdotal story of an aggressive cougar covering an archery deer kill within hours of the deer being shot. Granted, Utah hunts cougars. My point is I don't think we hunt them nearly enough in the west generally. Kalifornia is merely an extreme example of the lack of control of cougar populations.

The anecdotal evidence suggests Cougar numbers have sky rocketed and at the expense of big game herds, especially mule deer.
Two years ago, in Modoc County, California, the Fish and Game killed 25 cougars on depradation permits in one winter. They killed five cougars on one ranch in one night (a game bird ranch). The F&G up here seems quite aggressive in going after Cougars on depradation permits because (IMHO) they too are big game hunters and understand the Cougars devastating impact on mule deer.

The impact of man upon nature is such that it is no longer a self-regulating eco-system (at least not in the Continental US) and therefore, prey-predator relationships must be managed. In my opinion, regarding the cougar, they have been mismanaged in favor of increased cougar numbers and to the detriment of the human predator. Given that we have the power to control that outcome, I would rather we do so in favor of the human predator. I am not advocating elimination of cougars. Quite the contrary: I enjoyed seeing the one I saw years ago. I also admit my motives are selfish: I would rather kill the mule deer than the cougar doing so wholesale.

The import of the three Ss ethic (shoot, shovel and shut-up) is that it is a hunters attempt to grapple with F&Gs management which has permitted couger numbers to skyrocket at the expense of deer populations.

Jordan

Looks like I've struck a chord with some of you on both sides of the issue, which is exactly what I was trying to do. Let me just make one thing very clear, I am not an indiscriminate killer of animals. I don't even relish the kill when hunting game, and like shooting predators, which are normally more intellegent than ruminates, even less. When I do it's only because I feel like it's something that needs to be done.

All I want is for us to consider the attitudes of our fathers and grandfathers on this issue. Were they bad people? Were they simply "unenlightened"? Or were they taking wildlife management into their own hands for the sake of their own survival, economic or otherwise? And if so, was that such a bad thing?

I have hunted mule deer on the middle fork of the Salmon for over 10 years now and know hunters who have hunted it for thirty. The mule deer population in there has been stable with the exception of one element - weather. In 1992 the winter almost wiped out the population, in 1997 it did it again. There are plenty of cougar in the area and they do take deer, that is part of the scheme of things and always has been. Bear can also take a large number of fawns and calf elk. Outfitters will tell you to shoot all the cougar and black bear you see. Not for any sound reasons but to increase the animal population that brings them the greatest income.

If mule deer population drop drastically, the cougar population will do likewise, it is their source of food. The idea that the number of cougars will be at an all time high and the mule deer almost extinct is ludicrous. The populations of each are directly linked, whether up or down.

Shoot them on site? No way, unless I have a tag.

Chic

Cougar season is 10 months long here in Oregon..All year near the population centers and I keep a tag in my pocket so I won't have to "shovel and shut up"...

Interesting and thought provoking thread. I suppose the need for more predator control is true, in the last decade Ive encountered more predators than the pervious two decades before that and very few things like rabbits are numerous as they once were, BUT! I do not believe that cougars are the #1 reason that Utahs mule deer population is at an all time low.

Some years ago an agressive predator control program was introduced to the vaunted Bookcliffs reigon because that trophy area was no longer a trophy area. Now, because of the action taken it once again produces some of Utahs finest Mulie hunting. Whay they did was they closed the area to hunting for two years and further limited the number of permits allowed thus protecting the herd from the most notorious predator the world has ever seen....US! I wish they would use this strategy in more areas of the state. I would gladly sit out a year or two to be able to go back to a quality hunt in my favorite areas.

Do you believe in self perpetuated predator control enough to risk imprisonment? The answer to that is my answer to this thread. I have a wife and kids to think about. However, as I write this I am thumbing through a cougar proclamation and contemplating a cyote hunt in the morning..

[This message has been edited by Wstrnhuntr (edited 02-24-2002).]

First off, My statement concerning "East of the Mississippi" was only in reference to the first 10 posts of this thread.

10Point - I said Western Ecosystem, ie. Utah, WY, CO, MT, NV, ID, AZ, etc. I don't think I was trying to say "Westerners" are better than "Easterners".

BEE- Our place is only 1,000 acres. We have a great Elk herd. (14 mature bulls on it last year) Our deer herd is struggling due to coyotes and cougars. Heck we had cougars kill a sheep on the front porch of the cabin last year.

Anyway, cougars are the Main problem with our deer herds here in Utah. Also the main problem to Bighorns in New Mexico, deer in Arizona, Nevada, etc.

And yes the numbers DO pan out. Go with 4,000 cats x 30 deer per year = 120,000 deer. Over 1/4 of our Statewide population. Conservatively. That is too much predation for the herd to recover from bad winters. Also human harvest of 35,000 deer were bucks, a relativly non-essential part of the herd. (Because our Buck/Doe ratios are good enough)

Just don't sit in Alabama or Virginia and claim to know about the problems our Mule Deer herds are facing. Instead, come on out and shoot a cougar. (Lawfully of course)

Like I said before, predators are good, just not as many as we have.

The decline in muld deer populations is much more complex than the relationship to predator numbers. It may be related much more to modification of the habitat. When mule deer populations were high in the 50s and 60s, the range was in poor shape for livestock (more browse, less grass). By increasing the grasses and decreasing the browse, we have improved the land for livestock (and elk) but decreased the forage available to deer. We have also controlled fire, so the brush is getting too tall for deer. In many areas now you can see a browse line which shows how high an elk can reach. In short, we have made the habitat more favorable for elk and less favorable for deer. The decrease of winter range, which was mentioned earlier, is also a major factor. Much of the winter range is at the lower elevations, which is often private. I would like to see all of the public lands remain that way to preserve as much wildlife habitat as possible. It will also ensure access to those of us who can not afford the trespass fees. In many areas, the game and fish agencies have been reluctant to reduce permit numbers, so overhunting can also be a factor.

The mule deer decline is a complex issue influenced by a number of factors. Anyone who will blame it on one individual factor, such as predators, is pretty short-sighted and uninformed.

Dale, yup!

Great post Dale. You are right the change in Enviornment (both winter and summer ranges) is a large factor in overall Mule Deer numbers. Very well said. But High Country/moutain mule deer numbers have been heavliy impacted by the predators today. Too many predators have been one reason for the slow comeback of deer from the 1990's die off. No doubt there are many reasons to mule deer decline.

Even the Olympics here in Utah has caused our mulie population to take another hit in the stomach.

[This message has been edited by MGC (edited 02-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by MGC (edited 02-24-2002).]

Predation is a significant factor in wildlife mortality, but not as significant as the habitat factors. Predator populations follow the prey base, with a lag in time. For example, if deer numbers rise, coyote and mountain lion populations will rise, but with a lag time of a few years. If the deer numbers drop, it will take several years for the predator population to drop. Predators are a factor but do not control the prey base.

Several of you who have posted on this thread are from Utah, so I will give you an example you should be familiar with. Look at all of the new development in southern Utah County, from Spanish Fork down to Nephi. The foothills and valley along I-15 are prime deer winter range, but are now unavailable either due to development or the fencing along I-15. There is plenty of deer summer range in Utah, but in most areas the population is limited by the amount of winter range. And now we are reducing the winter range even more.

No one is complaining about the increase in elk numbers that corresponds to the decrease in deer numbers. That is due to the habitat becoming more favorable for elk than deer. (For the readers from the East, elk are grazers and mule deer are browsers, so their needs are different.) If we were to convert the range to more browse, we would see an increase in deer numbers and a decrease in elk. This would happen regardless of what we do with predators. Blaming the decrease in deer numbers on predators is a way of avoiding the responsibility for the impacts we have created in their habitat.

Having said all of this, I still never pass the chance to thump a coyote. In the areas where I hunt mountain lions in northwestern Colorado and antelope in Wyoming, I see a lot of the damage they do. The coyotes are especially rough on the deer on the winter range in parts of northwestern Colorado. However, I feel that mountain lion populations should be kept to reasonable numbers by regulated sport hunting, not indiscriminant shooting. Mountain lions are great game animals.

MGC being one of the frist ten I think you missed understood my post. Did you read the part about only if we can hunt them. Preator hunting is good sport.
What really pisses me off his the anti's putting them on a pedistal not letting us hunt them and control them. Hunting lions bears and things is great fun.
Just having them around to look at isn't as much fun. Do I want to kill them all no I want enough around to beable to hunt them. I would love to break out some of my old newhouse wolf traps and have a go at them.

quote:

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Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
Here in Georgia, it's coyotes and red-tail hawks, among others, that have assured that small game hunting, especially quail hunting, is a distant memory of the past.

!

---

Sounds more like the loss of game, where you are, is due to road hunting "REDNECKS" spotlighting,and poaching, more than from redtailed hawks! Just a guess, however!

I think large preditors should be hunted year except during puping season. My grand father shot any hawk, fox, or coyote he saw for the whole time I was growing up in the late 30s, and early 40s, yet after my grand father got too old to shoot them the deer came back in droves, the Bobwhite were thicker than ever, the doves doubled, and our cows got some of the grass, and barn feed that the thousands of jackrabbits, and rats had been eating. Come to find out it wasn't the preditors, at all, but six cousins, and myself and our families, because we were brought up, shooting everything the walked, flew or crawled, year round regardless of season!

In plain terms: "IGNORANCE THINNED OUT OUR DEER, AND OTHER GAME, NOT COYOTES" Fortunantly things change, but I will agree the lion should still be on the preditor list, not the Game Animal list. PREDITOR CONTROL is not a synonym for "ERADICATION"!

Talk about PeTA, well people who want to wipe out ANY wildlife is just as bad, and are the flip side of the same coin. They want to SAVE everything totally, and the other side wants to kill everything TOTALLY!

It seems to me, someplace in the middle is a lot better! Controled USE of a RENEWABLE resourse , whether preditor, or prey. Seasons, and bag limits for everything is the key, IMO!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

It isn't just the predtors with the high profile names such as wolves, hawks, egales,yotes and cougers that are causing the decline of game animals. As an eastern I can't even begin to under stand what is going on in the west with game predtor management. Here in Michigan I live on a great lake. We have ducks and Geese that nest here. The skunks, coons, sea gulls, foxes, crows, and magpies raid the nest for the eggs. Then raid the small clutches till the young learn to hide and evade. Now there are some areas of Michigan where the geese & commarants are a problem. All those for named predtors should be managed just as sporting game is managed. A species (any) has to live with in its own habitat. When the wolves are so plentyful that there isn't enough wild game food chain animals they will kill and eat livestock, I dislike sea gulls with a passion but I don't want them all to disapper eather, but when the land fills are so covered with them at a distance it looks snow cover thats to many. And Just what makes a person a gane manager? Having a degree from some high flutin collage don't always cut the mustard. If ya don't know crap from cobbler and have no common sence all the school is going to do is give ya what some one wrote in a book.The eastern book may not work in western lands or vice versea. I feel Ya gotta live it to know it. 220 swift 22-250 good dump chicken medisine.

[This message has been edited by alleyyooper (edited 02-25-2002).]

Macd37, I would have to say I agree with a good deal of your post. However, I do think your lip-curled use of the word "redneck" was a bit excessive.
You know, you being a texan and all. Perhaps your condescension is why texicans are rarely liked outside of their home state.
Since I have moved to West Virginia and started frequenting some of the various rooms, I find the philosophy of "it moved, lets kill it" that you attribute to "rednecks" is pretty widespread up and down the east coast.

Harold,
I sure don't disagree with you...I don't believe in eradacation of anything. I am a firm believer that all game, including preditors need to be managed and kept in balance...

Except the coyote and cockroach which will be here when mans knowledge of Nuclear Energy destroys the world..they will survive and prosper, I have no doubt...Coyotes speak English you know, but only a few of us know that.

I did find your remark about the coyote a little contradictory however....One must not pick and choose least he is no better than those he scolds you know that.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Mac,
I am going to remind you of something that has obviously slipped your mind ( age does that to some). What brought back the deer on your ranch was the eradication of the screw worm, plain and simple, you know that!

Now you guys can go back to shoot'en um!!

I have been told that the deer on the atkinson ranch had not backstraps, my hunter decided that...Must of been some strange preditor.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I dont belive in " Predator Eradication " they should be controled YES. GAHUNTER in your 1st post you sounded like you wanted to make all Predators go the way of the Dinosaur do you really feel this way? If you do then you give all hunters a bad name and only strenghten the agenda of Org like PETA because you make hunters look like blood thirsty Killers who want all ungulates(sp) for them selves to slaughter. If you just belive in reasonable Predator controll thats fine but you came across awfull strong in that 1st post.

With Predator control I think we the Human animal need to enforce some Human control all around the Earth; or Predators are going to be the least of our problems.

The deer in the canyon were killed by lions. They were trapped in the canyon by a very early snow during bow season. They were all dead by the middle of October, most of them were left there to feed upon later. Some had no marks on them other than where the cats had grabbed them and choked them to death. They were originally spotted by air a few days earlier.

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JD

Ray;I live in SW Montana near the Bridger Mts and game birds are becoming almost non-existent due to birds of prey.There is a hawk of some kind every where you look on sunny days.The eagle migration starts next month and I will have to keep my pup inside or loose her.Last spring I counted over 40 bald eagles at one time in the trees by the hay meadow.I enjoy seeing them but they are really taking their toll on birds and the 3 years of drought have made it easier for them.