It always seem sad when a firearm icon passes into discontinuence.
It has happened many time in the past.
The Kentucky rifle, the Hawken, the Sharps, and now possibly the Winchester Lever.
Historcally speaking the winchester was long overdue. It lated far longer than the others, mainly I suppose because of TV. Oh, its true it is light handy, and powerful accurate enough for a lot of deer hunting. But I think nostalgia paid an important role in the Winchester Levers continued success. My dad even tried to get me to go with a Winchester 30-30 as my first deer rifle. We saw an add in the local paper, 2 rifles for sale one a Win. 30-30 the other a ruger 44 Mag Deerstalker. WE went over to look at them. I came home with the Ruger. Nothing against the Winchester, I had just been seeing all of Bill Rugers ads about the success of the 44 in Africa. Even then I knew I was bound for Africa, and Bills adds influenced me no doubt.
We will miss the Winchester Levers. The Lever is an American Icon for sure. It was invented at just the right time when a fella needed rapid fire on the frontier. No other country has used the Lever like we have in America.
Foreigners own Winchester now, they just do not understand Its Icon Status, now it is just the bottom line. Same thing happened to our other Icon firearms, sales and the economy causing the changes. Even the Colt Peacemaker was brough back by TV.
SO, what is the Heir Apparent to the Winchester Lever.
The Heir must be percieved to be needed by the "modern man" [there is that term again].
It must serve a function, real or imagined, it must fullfill a deed, and a desire. It must be bought in sufficient numbers to continue its continued production.
I think the new KING is already here. IT IS the AR-15. In its many guizes and different models]
Most of the "old" lawmen used the Winchester Lever.
Almost all the current lawmen use the AR-15.
Out new TV heroes use it. Our REAL heroes use it.
Regular citizens buy them for fun and protection.
Time marches on.
It is the RIFLE of our time.

Marlin are nice rifles and still making them.

I like the side eject personally

It would be sad indeed to see the '94 fade away, it is a grand little pig rifle, here in OZ.
Hopefully someone, somwhere will pick up the production, like Browning did for some of the other Winchester products.

Cheers, Dave.

I never cared much for the "Winchesters" made after 1964 anyway, have since owned alot of Marlins. I still use a Marlin 1936 30-30 and a Marlin 1894 44mag and have a spare 1936 I may restore someday ala Doug Turnbull/Steven Dodd Hughes.

Man, it really is a sad day when somebody is seriously considering that the AR-15 should take the throne over the 94. I mean come on here, how many pickups ya think you're gonna find with an AR thrown behind the seat. How many tractors are gonna find a slot for an AR? Or horses with that black thing strapped to the saddle. I think not many. As far as what should take it's place,,,,I don't know. The mini 14 did certainly fill a few niches. I think the 94 was the gun of choice for several reasons, one of which is the low cost involved in owning/operating one. There is certainly nothing low cost about the AR, except maybe the ammo.

For me, I think the 94 will continue to hold it's own. I for one will proudly grab my Trapper when I need a lightweight reliable do-all rifle. I suspect that there are many more like me out there. And who knows, this could just be a marketing ploy to boost sales. Kind of a Garth Brooks thing.

Unlikely that the AR15 has anything to do with Winchesters dilema...consider the plethora of choices a buyer has of calibers and manufacturers--a new model or new make every 15 minutes.

This doesn't go on forever and the current retail scene looks more like an indication of speculative excess rather than reponse to buyer needs.

The solution is easy as always: cut costs or sell more stuff.

I saw an Dow Jones news wire this week where S&W announced moving into the long gun production of tactical rifles and some will also be made for the public.

In 1962 I craved and begged for a Mpdel 94, .30-30. In 2002 I finally inherited a pre 64 Model 94, last Fall I finally hunted the eastern timber hard with a 94 in my hands. I now appreciate them for what they are, and were. I deeply love my AR's also...

I own a buch of levers both Marlins and Winchesters. don't own a black gun, do think it is an heir to the lever and don't want a black gun.

quote:

AR-15

Not that you're wrong, but...Aaack! Thppt!

Sorry Gents, do not tar and feather the messanger.
When we grew up as kids we wanted a Winchester, kids now want AR 15,s.
For the mainstream public most all would prefer an AR 15.
Times change, styles, conditions, needs, and desires change.

Most of the public does not hunt deer, they do not dream of hunting deer, they dream of hunting terrorists.
Most of the public does not ride horses.
You might be suprised how many pickups have an AR 15 in the cab.[You just cannot hang a gun in the back window most places anymore].

Smith and Wesson "ain't comming out with no thuty-thuty."

I am not saying I like it, just that it appears to be so.

Well here is an interesting irony the new AR round the 6.8SPC is based on the 30 remington case which is a rimless 30-30.w/regards

I have owned and used several Win. 94 carbines and never really liked them much. I currently have a Mod. 64 rifle made in the '50s, something I wanted for years and I do like it very much. But, the 94 is simply so much a part of America that I doubt it will fade away and I sure as hell hope not!

NE 450 No2,

You may have a point that the AR 15 will replace the 94's what will the decline in hunting.

I wish that the 94 were replaced by a better gun than the AR 15 however.

As for myself I never took to the 94's, 71's or 86's for that matter. I have never owned a AR 15, don't even look at them and have zero plans to look at one.

Have owned lever guns, bolt guns, and a few of the "black" guns. In the end, the ARs and similar rifles never gave me that inner feeling of hunting that the others did. Oh, and I did hunt with the "black" gun once, 67-68, and have the wounds, etc., to prove it.

The Model 94 has never really been the same since Winchester in their continued infinite wisdom decided to build the Angle Eject. Hopefully some outfit that is actually in tune with the hunting fraternity will pick up the slack at New Haven. Look what the Italians have done with the whole range of Winchester lever guns and single shots. America ain't the same without a lever gun and I suspect that Marlin is trying very hard not to crack a smile. They are damn fine rifles. Unfortuneately, John Wayne never carried one. There is growing generation in this country who doesn't know John Wayne from Mr. Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Sorry Gents, do not tar and feather the messanger.
When we grew up as kids we wanted a Winchester, kids now want AR 15,s.
For the mainstream public most all would prefer an AR 15.
Times change, styles, conditions, needs, and desires change.

Most of the public does not hunt deer, they do not dream of hunting deer, they dream of hunting terrorists.
Most of the public does not ride horses.
You might be suprised how many pickups have an AR 15 in the cab.[You just cannot hang a gun in the back window most places anymore].

Smith and Wesson "ain't comming out with no thuty-thuty."

I am not saying I like it, just that it appears to be so.

You are very prophetic. The AR15, particularly its carbine version (M4gery as it is known by black rifle fans) will be the common rifle of the 21st century.

For every hunter there are ten shooters who either have never hunted and have little to no intention of hunting, or who are fed up with all the bullshit and time wasting involved in finding a place to hunt.

For them belonging to a gun club and participating in tactical or highpower matches is far more accessible, far more enjoyable, and far more relevant than hunting ever will be.

How do I know? I am one of them.

Hmmm...I've never eaten a terrorist, but I'll bet deer tastes better!!

I don't know the numbers, but most of the troops in Iraq are not fighting terrorists on a regular basis. If it worked the way in did in Vietnam, 80% of the troops were support in some way and the other 20% were in combat rotation so maybe a few thousand were "hunting" at any given time.

In my neck of the woods, we have more deer in Maryland than there ever has been...ever...and I really hope they out number the terrorists by a wide margin. There is a much better chance of finding a deer to shoot than a terrorist.

I shoot a couple thousand arrows a year, but only 6 of them shot and killed deer this year. I don't count rimfire ammo consumed, but I have bought small and large rifle primers by the thousand several times last year and I'm almost out now....most of the SRP were busted in an AR. Cheap Russian ammo, AKs and SKS also make a fun time in the back yard!!

HP, You are right I'm sure, but hunting is still available to those who want to pursue it. My youngest son says his friends are too lazy to hunt, but they will eat all his deer jerky if they get the chance!! I think we need to keep our kids hunting so it's not lost. The bunny huggers and the liberals will take it away from us if we let them whether you shoot an AK or a Win 94!!

I'll miss the M94. My first centerfire was a M94 Trapper 30/30. Shot my first moose (a calf) with it when I was 11 yo, 25 years ago...



To me, the passing of the 94 is a sad day.

Canuck

quote:

To me, the passing of the 94 is a sad day.

I am 100% with you!, eh?

Congrats on the moose.. nice going for a 12 yr old!

cheers
seafire

I currently own one Winchester 94 and have killed one deer with it. It is more or less a novelty. I own seven AR-15s in various configurations and have killed six deer and numerous varmints with them. It serves as my primary home defense weapon. When working at my property in the country or camping there is nearly always an M-Forgery in my Jeep.

NE 450 No2 is very insightful regardless of how enotionally you are attached to your saddle carbine.

When the founding fathers suggested that every good citizen had the right to be armed they did not at the time mean that the citizens should be able to own a long bow. They had the current military arms in mind. The same goes today. Every good citizen should keep an assault type firearm in their home and be prepared to use it if the need should arise.

you guys are missing something one of the endearing features of the 94 in the day was cost
instead or ar think sks how many of those are
kicking around

Yes, we all know that the AR-15 is getting very popular. Because it is a fine weapon. And yes, we've even seen John Wayne carry a "Black Gun" in Green Berets. But all in all I think this an unfair comparison. Yes the AR has many uses, and is ( or can be ) more accurate. But the same thing can be said about any production gun made today. I can spend $1000 on a nice AR, or I can spend $279 on a Stevens. Either way I will have a gun that will likely out shoot the 94. But quality of accuracy is not what made the 94 endure. It was nostalgia! Period!

Even if they never make another 94, it will likely remain on top of the "Historys Most Famous Gun List". Simply because of---Nostalgia. All of us that grew up with one, will probably always have one. And we will likely pass it down (with some great stories)to the heirs of our thrones. And they too will know the nostalgia of a great gun.

So, while I appreciate your feable attempt to nominate a Black Gun as heir to the thrown, rest assured that that seat is in no way at jeapordy. The Winchester 94 shall remain King of it's domain.

Oh yeah, one more thing. You are right. It would seem that the kids of today do lean more towards AR-assault type weaponry. I'm sure that this comes from modern TV. But keep in mind that these are also the kids who think Michael Jackson is white. Think about it. It's scary.

Given only 200 workers are to be let go, I have to believe Winchester wasn't making many '94s, that or they had a large investment in automation and/or outsourcing that went bad.

Regardless, the '94 will be around again before long. It has nice lines and works about as well as most of the leverguns. Uberti or Rossi or ... will pick up the slack. It is sad that the plug was pulled just when nifty options like 26" barrels, octagon barrels, the .25-35, take-downs, etc. were all becoming factory offerings. When I get back to the US, a Legacy was on my list of guns to check out at the 'shop. So it goes. The Marlin is a fine alternative, in many ways superior -- and perhaps that's what did in the current incarnation of the '94.

Jason
Do not misunderstand my first post.
This is not my "feeble attempt".
Mearly an observation.
I never said I wanted it, agreed with it, or liked it.
I just "noticed" it.

If you read way back into the history of civilian arms, each icon that fell from favor was sorely missed by many, still the new survived, for a while that is, until the next icon.
As I said, times change, needs change, desires change, society changes.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason Doss:Oh yeah, one more thing. You are right. It would seem that the kids of today do lean more towards AR-assault type weaponry. I'm sure that this comes from modern TV. But keep in mind that these are also the kids who think Michael Jackson is white. Think about it. It's scary.

Yes, today's generation are all a bunch of fools. Only you posses the wisdom of the ages.

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain: When the founding fathers suggested that every good citizen had the right to be armed they did not at the time mean that the citizens should be able to own a long bow. They had the current military arms in mind. The same goes today. Every good citizen should keep an assault type firearm in their home and be prepared to use it if the need should arise.

Hear! Hear!

The Second Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with hunting or "sporting" arms. Sporting firearms are a happy by product of it, not its reason for being.

Be very, very suspicious of liberals who come around pretending to be pro-2A by claiming that "hunters need not fear that we will take your guns away". Once they are done taking (if they can) the scary, black guns, your hunting rifles will become "high-powered long range sniper weapons" and next on the ban list.

Mark my words.

Got to agree with most of the points made here. In my mind's eye I can see the line- up of shooters at the range I frequent; most of the younger guys are shooting AR15 variants with several SKS' thrown in the mix. Seldom see them use a lever or a bolt action, for that matter. Also don't see many wheelguns among that crowd; mostly pistols. If I see any of them shooting the pistol gansta' style I move down the line.

The great majority of these guys will likely never hunt with a rifle; as mentioned above, hunting areas are becoming scarce and permission to hunt is more difficult to get.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason Doss:Oh yeah, one more thing. You are right. It would seem that the kids of today do lean more towards AR-assault type weaponry. I'm sure that this comes from modern TV. But keep in mind that these are also the kids who think Michael Jackson is white. Think about it. It's scary.

Yes, today's generation are all a bunch of fools. Only you posses the wisdom of the ages.

It is our responsibility to teach the younger generations about hunting, shooting, and freedom. Freedom is far from free, it actually has the highest price of anything that is so willingly paid!

When was the last time you introduced someone to the shooting sports? Nate

Personally I think the mod 94 is a great gun, and hopefully whoever starts making it some day, does a great job. All that said however, I am partial to the marlin 336 myself.

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't entirely agree. First, as someone else said, look more toward SKS or AK. Secondly, the AR15 (or M16) was dieing as a millitary rifle the minute they introduced it. Not since the M1 Carbine has the millitary been looking harder to replace/rework any given rifle. The friends I have in Iraq have all had their M16s replaced with AR-10equivalents or back to the M14. It seems the M16 doesn't hold up under ANY theater of engagement, unless a rifle range is a theater of engagement. Mine didn't in Nam, and they are no different today. I don't own a Ronco Jam-o-matic and I never will again.

The civilian world is just a little behind, as is often the case. The regular officers are getting the AR, while the TAC are getting MP5, AR10 and M1A.

Just my opinion. We will see in 50 years if the AR catches up to the 94.

Larrys;I think you are a little misinformed about the AR they were prone to jam when origially introduced but now if properly cared for are reliable arms.The reason they are being replaced in some military units is the lack of stopping power inherent with the .223 round.They are now being upgraded to the 6.8SPC which as I understand it about the equivelent of a .270.You mention the AR10 and it is essentially a larger ar15 reciever firing the 7.62nato round.w/regards

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
I understand where you are coming from, but I don't entirely agree. First, as someone else said, look more toward SKS or AK. Secondly, the AR15 (or M16) was dieing as a millitary rifle the minute they introduced it. Not since the M1 Carbine has the millitary been looking harder to replace/rework any given rifle. The friends I have in Iraq have all had their M16s replaced with AR-10equivalents or back to the M14. It seems the M16 doesn't hold up under ANY theater of engagement, unless a rifle range is a theater of engagement. Mine didn't in Nam, and they are no different today. I don't own a Ronco Jam-o-matic and I never will again.

The civilian world is just a little behind, as is often the case. The regular officers are getting the AR, while the TAC are getting MP5, AR10 and M1A.

Just my opinion. We will see in 50 years if the AR catches up to the 94.

Given the fact that the M16 has been our standard issue rifle for longer than the M1903, the M1, and the M14, and that whatever mechanical malfunctions ail the M16 also ail the AR10 (since the work in the exact same way), I fail to see anything that would indicate you know much about the current status of small arms in the US military.

Only SOCOM has the variety of weapons you are talking about. And the M14 is a stop gap measure as a Designated Marksman Rifle until development of the M16-based SDM-R is complete.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason Doss:
So, while I appreciate your feable attempt to nominate a Black Gun as heir to the thrown...

THROWN??? Now that's funny! Freudian slip, Jason?

Pennsylvania has almost 1 million hunters, all of which are banned from using semi-auto rifles for any form of game taking. No semi-auto handguns, either. No matter how scarce M94's get and no matter how popular the AR-15's get, I don't see the PA game commision changing the hunting laws to allow using legal clones of an army combat weapon.

An observation: I see very little use of the black rifle at the three gun clubs I belong to except those who shoot the high power course. Those folks are as dedicated accuracy bunch as you'll ever see. Also safety conscious and polite. Every other time I have seen one being used, it is with steel-cased russian ammo that ends up under foot instead of picked up and discarded properly. The shooters are just happy to send their rounds down range, to hear the 'bang.' None ever cared to post a target much less desire a tight group. Gun slobs in the truest sense of the word. After being around those louts, I'm sorry the black gun manufacturers are still in business and the Winchester M94 is no more.

Interesting obervation.

I think the lever action has gone from staple to specialty item, while the AR has almost gone from novelty to staple.

Me? I have both!


ETA
Wonder why the most popular gun website is AR15.com, not leverguns.com ?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason Doss:
So, while I appreciate your feable attempt to nominate a Black Gun as heir to the thrown...

THROWN??? Now that's funny! Freudian slip, Jason?

Pennsylvania has almost 1 million hunters, all of which are banned from using semi-auto rifles for any form of game taking. No semi-auto handguns, either. No matter how scarce M94's get and no matter how popular the AR-15's get, I don't see the PA game commision changing the hunting laws to allow using legal clones of an army combat weapon.

An observation: I see very little use of the black rifle at the three gun clubs I belong to except those who shoot the high power course. Those folks are as dedicated accuracy bunch as you'll ever see. Also safety conscious and polite. Every other time I have seen one being used, it is with steel-cased russian ammo that ends up under foot instead of picked up and discarded properly. The shooters are just happy to send their rounds down range, to hear the 'bang.' None ever cared to post a target much less desire a tight group. Gun slobs in the truest sense of the word. After being around those louts, I'm sorry the black gun manufacturers are still in business and the Winchester M94 is no more.

Yep, I forgot Pennsylvannia, with its retarded hunting firearm laws.

Semi auto firearms are legal for hunting in all other states, even those where shotguns are the only legal repeating firearm for taking deer.

And God forbid someone actually have FUN with a firearm. Hell, you would freak out if you saw what bump-firing is.

Your characterization of people who simply enjoy sending lead downrange as "slobs" is pathetic, I must say. If they were shooting TVs and leaving all the pieces there, or covering people with their muzzle (a major reason I don't shoot sporting clays any more, all the asswipes with Krieghoffs waving them around), I would agree. But nooooooooo, they are not shooting YOUR way, which is the ONLY way. That's what makes them slobs.

They refer to guys like you as "Elmer Fudds" over at AR15.com. Which, BTW, has far more members than just about ANY gun site on the net.

Bump firing, my idea of fun with a gun.

100% legal w/o NFA tax. It's all in how one uses the rifle's recoil impulse to push the rifle fwd against a stiff trigger finger to trip the trigger again and again and again, thirty times over.

Yep, the millitary loves the M16 so much that the millitary budgeted $29.5M for the development of the XM8 and an additional $26M from the Army for deployment to a brigade because they love the M16 soooo much. Colt subsequently sent a contingent to congress to protest and ironically the budget was cut for the XM8 only. It seems congress does bow to some pressures.

Maybe you need to check up. Neither of my buddies are in SOCOM and were issued M14s, just grunts around Fallujah. The current failure rate in the sand box is estimated to be 60-80%. That is why Colt just got orders to replace 50,000 of them in August. They work so well.

Again, not an heir to anything.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Yep, the millitary loves the M16 so much that the millitary budgeted $29.5M for the development of the XM8 and an additional $26M from the Army for deployment to a brigade because they love the M16 soooo much. Colt subsequently sent a contingent to congress to protest and ironically the budget was cut for the XM8 only. It seems congress does bow to some pressures.

Maybe you need to check up. Neither of my buddies are in SOCOM and were issued M14s, just grunts around Fallujah. The current failure rate in the sand box is estimated to be 60-80%. That is why Colt just got orders to replace 50,000 of them in August. They work so well.

Again, not an heir to anything.

The XM8 is dead as of October 2005. It is not dead because of Colt (which if it weren't for the M4, would be dead by now). It died due to multiple unsolved failures, particularly degradation of the polymer shell under heavy sustained firing, and inability to meet weight targets. In essence, the XM8/G36 is fine for German and Spanish soliders who do little more than drive around in UN APCs, but it sucks when asked to function in a real battle. Amazing how low HK has sunk.

Your buddies were issued M14s because that's what was available right off the bat for Squad Designated Marksmen. The replacement WILL be M16 based. Call Lt Colonel David Liwanag of the US Army Marksmanship Unit for more info, since they are developing and have fielded T&E units of the new M16 SDM-R.

I would like to see a link to a report showing the failure rate you claim.

As for the Army looking a replacement, no shit, sherlock. They do that for every rifle they have ever had.

BTW, FN is the only supplier of M16A2s and A4s right now.

onefun, yep I slipped, good catch.