I killed my first mulie a couple weeks ago. The shot was a bit high and shattered his spine and he was was down instantly. He was a well developed 2 point, no trophy, but satisfying to me. I used my .44 mag with a bullet to the top of his skull to end his life. I'm wondering if he was a trophy I wanted to mount where I would place a finishing shot considering a hard cast .44 will completely penetrate. I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on this.

Allan D,

Ever given any thought to carrying reduced load fmj's? I know its not a pistol round,but I used 147 grn Hornadys out of my .358 win.Base of the skull thru neck did the job with little damage as per trophy considerations.Just a thought.

ABH

Allan D When I do not want to shoot in the head/neck area I shoot for the heart, trying not to hit the shoulder so as to minimize meat damage. On Whitetail Deer I usually put the coup de grace in the lungs, because I like to eat the heart.

If I can shoot again, and am sure of a good hit, I'll hold for the heart/lungs, and shoot again right away. No need to prolong any animal's suffering. If I can't get another shot for whatever reason, I move until I can get a sure shot and take it at the first available opportunity. They will be dead before I can walk up to them.

If I'm in thick cover, or trailing and come upon the animal suddenly at close range, then, on a non-trophy, I put it at the base of the skull, severing the spine from behind.

On a trophy, center punch the heart.

Carry a 22 Kit Gun and put the muzzle in his ear. One shot and no damage to the outside. Gotta watch the horns though.

Dr.Duc- I'm with you- I always carry my .22 pistol when I hunt.
In the ear is still the best shot.

Be carefull with this at short range as .22's have bounced off of skulls. I shot one in the neck at short range with my Woodsman and that hit the spine, broke it and was sucessful but that was luck.

I like the idea best here already mentioned. Shoot them again at a distance in the lungs. I don't bother worrying about the "meat damage" thing. I just get it overwith as fast as possible. I have too much meat in the freezer anyway.

Okay, this week I'm going elk hunting. I have a .22 kit gun. Would a bullet in the ear do the job on a big bull, or should I be wearing body armor?

By the way, as I said, my deer was down immediately at my shot, in rocky ground, no chance for a second rifle shot.

Anybody have an elk skull handy to tell me where the bone is thinest?

If you put it in the ear hole it will go right into the brain. There's nothing but the ear drum and some really fragile stuff inbetween. You can miss at any range I guess, but it's hard at 1". He'll jump when the brain gets hit and the head may jerk.

A .22 in ear hole will get the job done, have done it in the past on many antilope and it worked fine.

Not wanting to start a war here but you american hunters don't carry a knife or what? Stab your game to the heart and you will :
1) save a round
2) not make more noise than necessary
3) not waste more venison than needed
4) have and elegant attitude
Generally in Europe that coup de grace thing isn't considered ethical and is regarded as an act of barbary, it can be accepted only if the game is considered dangerous, wounded boar or red deer.

Just my $0.02.

KB

Hey Allan D, I'd encourage you to check your Hunting Regulations concerning the pistol/revolver you are considering using. Some states require a specific caliber as a minimum and a specific barrel length.

It would be terrible to have a great hunt and then get in trouble over something where your intentions are good, but illegal.

This can vary by Game Zone within a state too. In some parts of the Carolinas, it is OK to carry a 6" 22LR pistol/revolver while carrying a "Centerfire Rifle". In an adjacent GZ, it just isn't legal.

Best of luck on your hunt.

King Baboon we are going to be reading about you one day in the papers.

I wouldn't go within twenty feet of downed big game if he still has life in his eyes. I approach from some direction, other than the front. I will go for the heart/lung, or base of the neck if he is anchored good.

I despise a finish-off shot. I shoot the first time if I am 200% sure I won't have to finish up a mess. It ruins my taste for the entire experience. It's proof I didn't do my job well.

With a pistol the task is even worse. No shock value. The initial round has usually shocked him all he's going to feel. I think the adrenalin masks any subsequent shot. Pump two in the heart/lung and try never to get yourself in that position again.

My other pet peeve is shooting a big game animal again, even though he is obviously dead. The second "insurance shot" just for the Hell of it for some reason, to me, shows a lack of respect for the animal that you've just killed. I won't do it. I won't allow my PH to do it.

Cold Bore:

I think that from the animal's point of view, it's absolutely the same to receive a second bullet or a stab. That said, it is a question of customs, finishing shot isn't acceptable here if you can do it with a knife. Why? I think you can retrieve the origins of this fact in the way of hunting of our ancestors : big game was taken with blade, before firearms existed, and the custom remained - in some hunts it is considered a great honor to be chosen for dispatching the animal. I would personally shoot a wounded animal only if I cannot reach it immediately, and if there is a risk to loose it. Even with (european, not african) DG, that's why I have a spear - personal choice. I have witnessed some 'sweetheart hunters' unable to stab a bambi and they start crying when you give them the knife to finish the job : do you think they deserve to keep on hunting? On the other hand, it is perfectly legal to blow away the head of a 15 kgs roebuck with a 9.3 at point blank, but the man who does it is not a hunter, he is a butcher as far as I am concerned, just a question of elegance. As for red deer, don't get me wrong, it is here the noblest game animal, and yes a wounded/cornered stag is considered dangerous, even more than a wild boar. A pig can maul (cut) you very bad, a deer can kill (stab) you.

Kensco:

'King Baboon we are going to be reading about you one day in the papers. '
I know, they always tell me I am nuts and will end up gutted by a pig

[ 10-21-2002, 15:42: Message edited by: King Baboon ]

I have thought of hunting as many things (necessary, enjoyable, returning me to my basic nature, natural, envigorating, etc.) but never as elegant. That is an interesting concept to me and one that might be best explored in another topic.

I have administered a coup de grace to game one time. I did so with a hard cast .38 Special to the back of the head of a yearling buck. While it has never otherwise been necessary, it seems inevitable that it would be at some point in a hunting career. The alternative is to allow the game to needlessly suffer. I will not do that. I may misunderstand but I think allowing game to needlessly suffer is many other negative things AND inelegant.

[ 10-22-2002, 00:48: Message edited by: Hobie ]

Kensco - Excellent comments and you are exactly right. I once made the mistake of trying the "knife thing" on a mule deer buck just as King Baboon suggests. Got my ass kicked all over the side of the hill and before it was over I thought I was going to be the one who died!

Frankly, I think a lot of people do the "coup de grace" thing for nothing. Most fatally shot animals will live for a moment or two before breathing their last and the only real way to shorten this time is a bullet to the brain and a 22 isn't a terribly reliable instrument for delivering it. That buck I tried the "knife thing" with taught me to have better manners than to walk up on a large wounded animal.

There is something obscene about shooting a dying animal full of holes. 99% of the time these animals are totally in shock and beyond feeling. Just give them a minute to die in peace. JMHO It doesn't matter to me how much meat I might have at home in the freezer. I feel a sense of duty to make an animal's death as useful as possible...even if I have to give a lot of meat away. I don't hunt just to prove I can kill something.

A poorly shot animal, i.e. gut shot etc. is another matter and obviously must be put down ASAP.

Hobie, I perfectly agree with you as to the necessity to rapidly end the suffering of your game, but a well-placed stab is a quick death and there is no inelegance involved.

I have a hard time swallowing that a finishing shot is less ethical than waiting to walk up to the animal to do the knife thing.

I did it once with a cow elk, as I had run out of ammo (please don't ask....). Very much a negative experience.

The animal will almost always suffer needlessly if you wait and walk up with the knife. Put another round in it as long as it is breathing, no question in my mind. JMO, Dutch.

I had to use my knife on a good size mule deer a couple years ago. I don't want to get into the whole story 'cause I try not to think about it too much. I've been big game hunting only three years. This was my first trip alone. I missed the first shot and should have quit shooting when he started running but didn't. Second and third shots hit but badly, fourth was a miss. Now the gun was out of ammo, I was running toward where the buck was last seen grabbing for ammo out of my pocket. I spilled them all over the ground and didn't stop to pick them up (another stupid mistake). Finally got to the buck......don't even want to get into it or describe the scene. I knew what needed to be done, he was very much alive, and I was physically sick to my stomach. I jumped on him from behind and slit the throat. Then I jumped off and threw up. He finally died. Made three promises to myself then, 1) never shoot a running animal over 100 yards away 2) always have extra ammo somewhere and 3) practice more so I don't ever make another mess like that one. I guess I'll stick with another close range shot. I'd rather lose meat than go through that experience again. In CA carriing a .22 while deer hunting is a no-no.

NoCAL

No shame in your story NoCal, we've all been there, or some version of it. Yours is the proper response. Curse yourself for ever getting in that mess then re-think what got you there, and learn from it.

Some hunters never remember that last step.

While we are on the subject of dead and/or dying game, what's the deal with pulling the heads off of dove?

My deal was always, shoot-um, pick-um up, squeeze-um by the throat if needed, put-um in my vest. I then hunted (about the third time I hunted dove) with the engineer I worked for in the company. He had his 5-year old son with us. He'd taught the kid to pull the heads off of dove after they were shot.

Two things bothered me. I didn't think it was healthy for a five year old to be taught to pull birds heads off, but that was his father's business, not mine.

Secondly, it wasn't the kid's business to pull the heads off the birds I killed. After he did it a few times I started racing him to the downed dove so he wouldn't behead them. After about thirty minutes of that I had an off-to-the-side talk with the lad where I described to him what I would do, to him, if he touched any more of my dove. Problem solved.

But, I've hunted with others over time that had the same practice. What's the deal?

I agree with King Baboon. Properly used (i.e. after having mastered the technique = knowing where and how to stab & sweep or cut) a knife works as fast as a bullet. Not later than 2 days ago, I put a wounded Roe to sleep with my knife (stabbed where neck and brisket meet, sweeped blade L & R to cut the aorta and death occured in seconds). I've seen the same technique used on Red Stag in Scotland. However, this can get dangerous with as powerful an animal and demands more than fair and swift coordination (my stalker approached the Stag from a dead angle, grabbed an antler and let himself down on the neck in one movement. The animal being pinned down, he used his knife as above). Throat slitting is just as effective but then, I dislike the gurgling sound and gaping wound. Germans have a proprietary technique for Roe : they straddle the deer's back, steady the head and insert the very point of their "knicker" knife between the 2 first vertebrae, severring the spinal cord. On Stag (1)and Wild Boar (2), I use my rifle, shooting high in the neck, close to the head for (1) and behind the ear, minding the angle to avoid damaging tusks for (2).

That knife thing seems a little too exciting for my blood. I'm afraid I'd end up with a ride like Pecos45 described.

I've seen too many mistakes at the bull fights here and in Mexico. The bull is down, but not out, and the gentleman eases up behind him. He then moves to pop the bull at the base of the skull, severing the spinal cord. It doesn't always seem to go as planned.

I would say at least 30% of the time he has to hit him more than once. At least 5% of the time the bull gets back to his feet before being dispatched. Remember these guys do this for a living, not once a year or once every five years.

Not good enough odds for ol' dad.

I'm sticking to the weapon that delivered the primary hit, and I'm going to be some distance off.

You guys from the old country are way too scary for me. I'll watch you do it, and help you to the clinic if it doesn't work out, but that's as far as I go.

I don't let the critters suffer. If the first shot only puts them down, I shoot 'em again with my rifle as quickly as I can, in the neck if I can see it. To heck with all this trophy and knife nonsense.

Sorry Greg,

Not feeling in very good shape today. Mabe tomorrow better?

King B I just noticed you are from France. We have a French OIM who hunts on his days off. Pigs and Roe Deer in the Alps. Driven hunts he tells me. They sit on a stand and the men and dogs drive the game towards them.

The deer don't look like much of a trophy, but the pigs look interesting; as big as the deer.

I shoot them to quickly end their suffering if it looks like my first shot was marginal. I've only had to do this a few times over the last 20 years or so of hunting. It seems like the knife thing is a european custom, one that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Cartridges are cheap, if the animal isn't quickly expiring then I put another bullet into it. I also don't see the logic in carrying a pistol when you've got a rifle already. There's nothing the pistol will do that the rifle won't do better so why tote the extra weight? I once went elk hunting with a couple of shall we say "city guys". The first day they both carried revolvers in shoulder holsers, K-bars hanging from their belts, their rifles, oversized binoculars, two extra boxes of ammo in their packs, etc. One even offered an extra revolver to me, I politely declined. After toting all that crap up and down mountains for a day the next day the revolvers, K-bars, and huge binos were gone and the ammo boxes were chucked in favor of five extra rounds in a zip loc bag.

If I'm putting a finishing shot into an animal I usually shoot them where the neck meets the head. If it's something I want to mount I'll put the bullet behind the shoulder. I don't head shoot them, too messy and unnecessary. I once finished a doe off by shooting her at the head/neck juncture like I usually do. I forgot that I was hunting with my .375 H&H that day and stuck the barrel in place while holding it by the pistol grip in my right hand, turning my head before I shot. When I shot the rifle danged near flew out of my hand and the checkering on the bolt took a good bit of skin off of my index finger. I won't shoot that rifle one handed again.

Ive shot two bobcats in my hunting career, and on the second one I used a shotgun. The first shot put it down but not out. I walked up to it from behind, saw the chest moving, and shot it again in the neck, just behind the skull, and that was all that was needed. I dont know if bobcats are considered "dangerous" game, but I would hate to be sitting on the thing when it gets loose and pounces on my face if doing for the knife deal.

I would only use the knife if 1. it was too dangerous for some reason to shoot again, such as if the animal was laying on a large rock and if they bullet could have a chance of richoceting back at me or others 2. Didnt have any other bullets, for some reason 3. Cant think of anything else.

This is good reason to always make sure of the first shot.

King Baboon-

Interesting posts I must admit. Do you personally know of anyone who has been injured attempting a knife ending stab?

Regards,

Buell

Yes Buell,

I know of several people who have needed some surgery after 'boar fighting'. Even a guy I used to hunt with had to stay a couple of days at the clinique and received 30 o so stitches.
I am fortunate enough to have never been injured myself, I have stabbed some roebucks, wild boars, warthogs, one impala, and speared a kudu. Not had to fight a lightly wounded (i.e. able to stand up and charge) old boar yet though.

In the neck!

Let me see if i've got this right. In Europe a finishing shooting is inelegant.
In the USA risking hospitalization by knifing is foolish.
I guess one difference is that here we have no 20-30 pound (10-15kg) animals that we eat.
I've finished small game with a head shot from a large stick but that's another story.
Also off topic is that Capstick wrote of hunters being killed in Africa for not 'paying the insurance'.

Well, inelegant or not, I'll not wrestle a large animal with a knife. My wife hit a deer once and I had to put it out of it's misery with a small clasp knife, not much fun. With anything bigger or with real horns, no thanks. If required, a second shot is cheap insurance. - Dan

I've read all the direction this post has taken and there seems to be more cultural bias than concern for the animal. I do this stuff for a living every day and I promise you I have never "enjoyed" killing one.
Every PH I ever hunted with said "Put another one in him" as we approached. Obviously dead animals are not always. I had a friend who euthanied a dog and put it in a can only to have it meet him at the door in the morning.
I'm gonna have to go with Dan