MC

Reading your story reminded me of something my PH told me about after I had left Africa. I had shot my buff (by myself) with a first shot and an "insurance" shot with a 375 H&H. I happened to write to my PH some months afterwards that I had been reading a story in a barber shop gun magazine that the author said that the 375 was totally inadequate on Cape buff. I joked that maybe my buff had not read the book. My PH wrote back that he had been reading my letter right after returning with a client who had hit a buff no less than 9 times with a 416 Rem, all soft tissue wounds. (My PH was a firm believer in "Break bones") To this day, I am awed that 9 shots wouldn't put down a buff.

No 7mm's that is correct. Should have stated "real" 30 calibur rounds. .308 of course the other two you mentioned most likely a no go.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
I have been an elk outfitter in New Mexico for umpteen years now and I have two rules. No body hunts elk in my camps with a rifle under .30 calibur and no bow hunter uses less than a #60 pound bow with arrows at least 400 grains and NO expandable broadheads. Everyone who books with me knows these rules up front and they either come prepared to the above or they don't hunt. My outfit, my hunts, my rules, no problem. Those who don't want to play this way, I simply forwared them on to others whose rules are less stringent.

Larry Sellers

SCI Life Member

So you wouldn't allow someone to hunt elk with a 7mm RMag or a 7mm STW? But a .308, 300 Savage, or 30-30 would be OK?

Yes, absolutely, if you are a good shot and do not have to take any shot you can.

Since I've killed Elk in Idaho with a longbow, and three different compounds, four with a .54 caliber Hawken style black powder rifle, and one each with Contenders chambered in 44 Magnum and 35 Remington, a 99 Savage in 250-3000 and even one with a 94 in 25-35: yes I think you can kill one with a 25-06. You just have to practice, and be a hunter not a shooter-atter of every Elk you see. Nosler Partitions are very effective on Elk, but I would limit myself to standing still or slow strolling ones at 200 yds or less. The Partition will shoot clean thru a big Bull Elk from appetite to exhaust vent.

99% of the people who tell you you can't kill an Elk with a ____ are really saying that THEY CAN'T.

Take everything you read here with a block of salt.


Rich
DRSS

Will it work? Sure. There was a fellow over in Bozeman I knew that swore by his 22-250 as the end all elk rifle.

What no one has mentioned is the mood of the elk being shot. I've seen a "worked up" cow elk take two textbook 270 150gr NP's through the top of the heart, yes, no bones, this was a meat hunt OK, and run off, stop, mill around, and finally fall over almost dead. A 22RL behind the ear ended the day for her. Elapsed time, about 10 min, distance covered several hundred yards, open ground so the chance of loosing her in the trees was not a factor.

One time thing? Nope, less than an hour later the same story was repeated but with a smaller calf!

If you can whack a calm animal great. I've seen this same load drop a 6x6 DRT, bang-flop, didn't even roll over and kick, dead. If this is the only conditions you will be shooting elk under then by all means a 25-06 is fine. BUT, what happens if another hunter spooks a nice bull or even a big cow past you? Are you going to pass on that shot? Please don't BS me and say you would.

Then there is the whole black timber thing. I have seen a 286gr NP out of a 9.3x62 slam an elk to the ground with a "Texas Heart Shot" at under 100 yds, do that with a 25 or 270 or even most 30 caliber bullets and loads? Not so much...

The bull in my avatar was killed with a 25 wsm, the load I was using was only about 100 fps faster than my 25-06 is with the same bullet. Worked wonderfully, executed a good stalk, snuck to within 250 yds, shot the bull when as he was walking across a small clearing, dropped in his tracks, he was totally unaware that there was anyone around. It all comes down to shot placement. I prefer the 115 partition for my 25's. I find it to be more accurate than the 120's.
If you like the caliber and shoot it well use it, put the bullet in the right spot it will do the job.

Idaho Sharpshooter:

Reading through your listing of your "arsenal", I noted the Savage 99, 250-3000. Your'e the guy I have to blame when I advertised years ago in Shotguns News to get one and came up with nothing! (Being much older than you, I'm sure. I owned one once and used a 100 gr. on Eastern white tails. I killed white tails - but being an impatient teenager I wanted to drop white tails when I jumped them -and only the '06,180 gr. would reach up to the boiler room! ( The Savage did marvelously well on lung and chest shots.Fact. It was simply that our deer got more cautious and so I had to sit and wait on stand.

Crap happens. While it's true that shot placement is everything, I feel like the question should be: What round would you rather be firing when your bullet ends up where you didn't intend it to. For me the answer is a 200grn TSX.

MC

It's nice to hear someone emphasize the fundamentals. It's never too often to hear someone emphasize -"bullet placement -bullet placement -bullet placement".

Of course a 25-06 WILL kill an Elk. But it is insufficiant in so many ways.
A .25-06 is probably at the top of it's game as a long range Coyote cartridge.
Don't know why so many folks try to take a under powered rifle to do too big a job. I think it's due to most folks reluctance to the recoil of sufficiant rounds. My bottom rung for Elk would be a .30-06 with 180s. Minimum.

I thought we had already decided that a 25-06 is sufficient, but here the thread lives on... hahaha

Those who do not believe in a 25-06 and its capabilities has most likely never used one. hehe At best a coyote gun? That is real humor. 180 gr being the min? Really, all those elk which died at the barrel of my 280 shooting 150 gr'ers must never have heard tale.

And Larry makes me SOOOOOOOOOOO glad I do not have to place my hunting experiences in the hands of a guide. He must want only the magnum, first timers (not that everyone who uses a mag is a first timer) in camp because they don't know much about the game they will be killing. hahaha

Relax boys. Use what you have confidence in and go hunt! They kill elk at the local game farm from 40 paces with 22 shorts! Don't judge another's choice until AFTER the choice fails--- the choice failing, not the shooter.

TODD- Go kill'em with a handgun this year! You know how to get them dead.

DWright
how many elk have you personally watched die?

As I remember the 25-06 was Bob Milick's favorite elk rifle caliber. Bob killed several elk with it, too.

MC

"They kill elk at the local game farm from 40 paces with 22 shorts!"

I am calling Bullsh*t on this chest pounding statement.

In a light-hearted post, I referenced how the local game farm kills their surplus cow elk, which are nothing more than tame farm animals living in 2 acre pens. So you are right SG, it may only be 30 paces, depends on how long one's legs are. They bring their cull cows into a corral which is 80 feet across and shoot them in the head with a 22 short. Kinda hard to discharge a 30-378 within the city limits. Call BS all you want, you don't know me and I don't know you. The local mobile butcher kills cattle up to 1,400 lbs (that is the max weight for his hoist) with his 22 short.

If you think I am "chest pounding" then it just proves that you know nothing about me. Grow a sense of humor, lighten-up, and go hunt something rather than get on a web site and try to police the world. Your world may be much different than that of another man.

My good friend back home wanted a .25-06 for his "elk" gun, till he saw another friend use it to hunt deer. Great cartrige, but not the best for elk.

But then I hope to use a 7mm Mag someday, so take that with a grain of salt.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

The .243 Winchester is probably used on elk more often than most people think, primarily by local "meat" hunters. No more elk are lost to it than to .300 magnums...

I curious where you got your information??

I knew a handful of locals in Coeur d'Alene, ID who got their elk every year with a 243. None admitted to losing an elk...all claimed 100% kill and retrieval. Every one of them spoke of waiting for the right shot...fwiw.

A 115gr worked well for a friend of mine. Mid-lung shot at about 125 yrds. The cow elk dropped at the shot, got up and traveled several yards. The Nosler partition exited.

I've shot a few elk with a 25-06 using 120g Partitions. I always worried that it was too small. But they all dropped and rarely needed a second shot. Mostl;y lung hsot, spined or neck shot.

I broke the stock on that gun 8 years ago and bought a 270WSM which has also dropped a bunch of elk since becoming my primary rifle.

If I'm right in thinking that your Elk are about comparable in size to our Red Deer then the shocking news is that thousands of Reds are killed in the UK by the humble 243!

This is in part due tour gun laws meaning that the 243 is a very common "all-round" calibre, it being the effectively the lightest calibre legal for deer and relatively easily licenced for varmints, but also due to the fact that the other 5 species of hunt-able deer in the UK are much smaller.

That said UK hunters tend not to shoot at great distances and the ethos of picking one's shots is fairly deeply ingrained, if only because of the game dealer!.

If one were to ask around however most people recommend at least a 6.5mm of some description with the .270 being the queen of Scottish hill stag stalking rounds.

Our continental cousins broadly agree, with something like a 7mm firing a 156 or heavier bullet being the recommended minimum for what you guys would call still hunting but considerably more, 9.3mms, for driven shooting.


Just a view from across the pond.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
I have been an elk outfitter in New Mexico for umpteen years now and I have two rules. No body hunts elk in my camps with a rifle under .30 calibur and no bow hunter uses less than a #60 pound bow with arrows at least 400 grains and NO expandable broadheads. Everyone who books with me knows these rules up front and they either come prepared to the above or they don't hunt. My outfit, my hunts, my rules, no problem. Those who don't want to play this way, I simply forwared them on to others whose rules are less stringent.

Larry Sellers

SCI Life Member

Actually its my tag, my hunt, MY MONEY, my rules! Thank you for being so upfront, I will not consider you for the NM elk hunt I am actively researching.

I get a kick out of all these comments about how it will work if you place your shot well. No cartridge will work unless you can do that. If you do place your bullet well almost any cartridge will work. Nothing magical about being over .30 inches.

Heavy .30 cal. bullets are much, much better at breaking the heavy bones of a bull elk than any .24 or .25 cal. bullet. Don't expect other experienced hunters to condone the use of varmint/deer rifles on elk. Yes, they will get the job done once in awhile, but not consistantly.

Ghubert, bull elk run 650-1,000 pounds depending on sub-species. They are therefor 2-3 times as big as a red deer, although they look quite similar.

+1 to another voice of reason,Howard
they don't die,
if you don't hit them where they live
doesn't matter what the projectile is
and shooting them in the ass as they go away from you in the timber wasn't a lesson i
learned in any of the elk camps i was brought up in.
if you couldn't bust their neck at 60 yds
you didn't shoot.
they are NOT hard to kill and can be thought of as super sized whitetail, 700 lb. whitetail,
anatomically the same animal.
the first dozen i killed as a snot nosed kid was with a .243,the next 4 dozen with a mix of weapons mostly a 270 and 130 grn bullets and the several hundred i watched die with clients a mix of weapons.
the big thunder guns and magic bullets don't have any edge on a well placed 25-06 or 243
when it comes to making elk die.

I have a friend who hunts elk with a BOW! Can you guys believe that? He can shoot a 700 lb bull elk with an arrow and it dies! Amazing...... Of course he must hit the bull in the VITALS.

RavenR- I gotta say you have a great way of writing a response. Very nice. If I ever needed a guide for elk (which I won't ) you'd be the first in line.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
I have been an elk outfitter in New Mexico for umpteen years now and I have two rules. No body hunts elk in my camps with a rifle under .30 caliber and no bow hunter uses less than a #60 pound bow with arrows at least 400 grains and NO expandable broadheads. Everyone who books with me knows these rules up front and they either come prepared to the above or they don't hunt. My outfit, my hunts, my rules, no problem. Those who don't want to play this way, I simply forward them on to others whose rules are less stringent.

Larry Sellers

SCI Life Member


Actually its my tag, my hunt, MY MONEY, my rules! Thank you for being so upfront, I will not consider you for the NM elk hunt I am actively researching.

I get a kick out of all these comments about how it will work if you place your shot well. No cartridge will work unless you can do that. If you do place your bullet well almost any cartridge will work. Nothing magical about being over .30 inches.

Howard, you beat me to it. I agree with you that it's my hunt and therefore my rules. Like I posted earlier, I shot my first elk in 1966, and I shot my 33rd elk in 2008. Fortunately, I've never had to hunt elk with an outfitter, especially one who would push "his rules." I've seen another 10 or so elk shot by friends that I was hunting with, who shot their elk with their .257 Roberts, .270 Win, and 7 mm Rem mag. These were all one shot kills that needed little or no tracking.

Most of the elk that I have shot were with .30 caliber bullets, but again, like I posted earlier, I did drop a big 6x6 bull in his tracks with a 117 gr Sierra Gameking bullet from my .257 AI, I made a one arrow kill on a 5x5 bull with a 54 lb recurve bow shooting a fiberglass arrow with a Bear broadhead, and the last elk that I shot was a cow that instantly fell dead from a 160 gr Accubond from my 7 mm Rem mag.

I have never wounded and lost an elk, nor has any of my friends that I was elk hunting with. Other than my first elk, which I started shooting at waaay to far away, but did finally get him, all of my other elk were shot at under about 250 yds, and the closest shot was the bull that I arrowed at 10 paces.

A lot of guys like to brag about their 600 or 700 or 800 yd or longer shots, and several Outdoor TV shows glamorize long shots at animals. I tend to think that the closer you get to your animal, the better your chances are of making a killing shot.

An elk shot in the foot at 300 or 400 yds with a .375 H&H magnum is not a dead elk, but an elk shot broadside right behind the shoulder at 100 or 50 yds with a .25-06 is a dead elk.

quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:

An elk shot in the foot at 300 or 400 yds with a .375 H&H magnum is not a dead elk, but an elk shot broadside right behind the shoulder at 100 or 50 yds with a .25-06 is a dead elk.

Well said........and heck it's a free country, the outfitter can make any rules he wishes for himself and how he chooses to run his business. No issue with that. I do take exception to the insinuation that he somehow is more ethical or more of a "high class" outfit because of some silly self imposed rule.

If you want a meaningful stringent rule why not make one that requires your guides to get all hunters with a a maximum of 150 yards before allowing them to shoot?

Perhaps the guide has had to track an elk 8 or 10 miles into a 'hellhole' that was shot with an under 30 caliber rifle that did eventually kill it with a well placed shot but did not kill it quickly.
My cousin shot a small Pa deer that ran a long way when shot with a 25-06 through the lungs. I shot mine with a 338wm. I dropped right there with the same placement--- at the tender age of 15 I learned, shot placement is king, bullet size is queen and personal favorites are generally the jokers!

Buckeyeshooter, you can't believe that!! I've been hanging out in AR for a number of years and the next deer/elk/elephant/etc that wasn't DRT when shot with a .243 and such will be the first one.

you folks back there in ohio and tennesse,
you hunt alot of elk?
theres always stories like your cousin and
my cousin.
i accept these stories as the cartridges weakness.
but a good rifle in poor hands
don't make it a bad rifle

Nobody ever talks about the game that was shot at and not brought to bag. Normally no one knows whether they were hit or not. How many times have we heard the statement. Oh, I got a shot at one but missed, too far away, or he was running, etc. I've also seen hunters deny shooting at an elk when they didn't kill him, and nobody tells about wounding one years later, those incidents just get forgotten. I want to hunt with a gun that will produce a good kill even when things go wrong. Anyone who says an elk that is gut shot with a .25/06 is the same as one gut shot with a .338 is either inexperienced or prone to hallucinations. NOBODY MAKES A PERFECT SHOT EVERY TIME.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
Perhaps the guide has had to track an elk 8 or 10 miles into a 'hellhole' that was shot with an under 30 caliber rifle that did eventually kill it with a well placed shot but did not kill it quickly.
My cousin shot a small Pa deer that ran a long way when shot with a 25-06 through the lungs. I shot mine with a 338wm. I dropped right there with the same placement--- at the tender age of 15 I learned, shot placement is king, bullet size is queen and personal favorites are generally the jokers!

Friend, I saw a guy hit a Nebraska deer with a .338, in the lungs, and the thing ran over 100 yards. I have also seen many a deer hit with a .223 (legal in Nebraska, with the right load) and be dead right there.

And for Mr Sellers, an honest question. Are you saying my .308 would be better than my 7MM Mag?

25-06 - 120grn - 300 yards - 1351 foot lbs
300WSM - 180grn - 300 yards - 2382 foot lbs

I hunt elk with a .30 caliber because after 4 hours of climbing in the dark, I want to be able to take a frontal shot at a bull 200 yards away if that is the only opportunity I am going to get.

swampshooter
we're not talking about wounding elk with
a 25-06,we're talkin bout killin'em with it.
listen fellas there are a handful of us on the forum that live here in the west and have for many yrs
we hunt elk like you fellas hunt whitetail.
it is our #1 game animal and has been
for 30+ yrs.
i understand owning and hunting with a big enough cartridge to get the job done.
i also understand the 25-06 is not the "ideal"
cartridge to go off in pursuit of an elk.
and requires careful use of the rifle to ensure
it doesn't result in a wounded and lost animal.
as every rifle does
but to say that it can't be a stone cold killer of elk or any other north american member of the deer family, out to say...125 yds
when it IS used properly,just woundn't be true.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Anyone who says an elk that is gut shot with a .25/06 is the same as one gut shot with a .338 is either inexperienced or prone to hallucinations. NOBODY MAKES A PERFECT SHOT EVERY TIME.

ravenr, just to make a point, we folks in Ohio and Tennessee do hunt a lot of elk. And we spend a lot of money in your state. Tourism is now #1 in Wyoming.
Those big strips of hard stuff are called roads. They lead all over this country.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Ghubert, bull elk run 650-1,000 pounds depending on sub-species. They are therefor 2-3 times as big as a red deer, although they look quite similar.

Thanks Swampy, our red deer average around 2-300 pounds in the lowlands, exceptionally up to about 400, going about a third or so less on the hill in Scotland.

I can see that yours are considerably larger, considering that the chance of shooting reds was reason that I got a 30.06 as my first deer rifle, I 'll agree with the majority and say that the 243 isn't enough gun unless one is prepared to take head and double-lung shots only.

Thanks for the info btw mate.

Regards,

Gh

I haven't heard anybody say a 25/06 wouldn't kill an elk. A 25/06 will not normally leave a blood trail. Blood trails start at .30 cal. It also lacks penetration and bone breaking ability. I'll guarantee you it won't break the shoulder joint on a large bull elk. In order to reliably kill, a shot must be nearly 100% broadside and at a stationary animal. Their are much better elk rifles available. Some of you guys need to man up and learn how to shoot a big game rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
you folks back there in ohio and tennesse,
you hunt alot of elk?
theres always stories like your cousin and
my cousin.
i accept these stories as the cartridges weakness.
but a good rifle in poor hands
don't make it a bad rifle

Just because we live east does not mean we don't hunt elk. You know both Kentucky and Pa. have huntable populations. Now, getting a tag is something different. If you are comfortable using an under 30 feel free. I don't even own anything smaller than 30 cal and I do not see that changing.

I was going to be done with this thread, but.....

Swamp- Now that is some great humor. "Blood trails start at .30 cal." That has to be one of the most asinine statements I have heard in quiet some time. Hahahaha Thanks for the smile. No blood trail with a 7mag or 280 or 25-06 or 22-250..... That statement shows your novice experience and lack of trying to understand the issue. And if you shoot an elk in the guts with a 25-06 or a 338 mag ALL you have is a gut shot elk. That is one thing that should be constant in any discussion.

I hate to hear a guy claim he can frontal shoot a bull with X caliber, but can't with Y. You get 5 inches of wind-drift and you just raked the bull down his side, rather than kill it.

And all those who claim people need to man-up and hunt with a mag. Those same people need to understand the flip side of the coin. It isn't about being a man. It IS about hunting with the gun you are comfortable with. Know your rifle, use it and take solid, ETHICAL shots. It really isn't that hard guys.

I won't even go into the Super-Powers of a bull elk with titanium shoulder joints, which could never be broken by a 120 gr projectile traveling at 2,000 feet per second.......

quote:

In order to reliably kill, a shot must be nearly 100% broadside and at a stationary animal.

now you're starting to catch on , swamp!
and for what ever reason the 25-06 is in your hands when you leave the house

being a skinny 12 yr old
or a light framed woman
elk rifle got broke in a horse wreck...
didn't think i would see an elk in this area...

those ARE 2 of the rules for its use.
its really more about understanding the rifle
is it light for elk and moose? yes
will it kill an elk or moose? yes
what do i have to do to ensure the kill?
get close
wait for a nearly 100% broadside
a)put a bullet thru both lungs
b)put a bullet thru the heart
c)break its neck with a bullet
stay away from the big bones,(shoulders)
following these rules make it an elk cartridge