For example, the .340 Weatherby is obviously a much more potent round than the .308 Winchester is, but if a given shooter can't handle the recoil and shoot the big .340 with precision, he's likely to see better results out of .308. If he has practiced sufficiently and can shoot the .340 with reasonable skill however, he'll have an undeniable advantage working for him, especially when the animals run as large as elk, moose, and the big bears.

It's not the thunder that kills - it's the lightning!

AD

Depends on what you are hunting, and didn't we sort of divide it into 223, as one class, around 308 as the next, and then, for some reason, the 338-375 class, next being the 400's, then the 500's, and, we don't want to talk about the BMG, and then the 577 and larger class?

gs

I would also suggest then, that what you are shooting at may determine the effectiveness of the calibers, and, that they are all determined, as Allen said, by the hunter's ability to hit what he's aiming at.

I would rather have Saeed trying to kill a Cape buffalo with a 223, then me with a Vincent Buffalo stomper, or a 4 bore...

gs

I personally haven't hunted with too much variation between the 30 and 416 calibers so I cannot comment on the progression between them. There is a big difference between what a 416 Rigby with 350 gr @ 2800 fps can do to an animal when compared to a 180 gr @ 2750 fps from a 30-06. There is an even greater difference between the 416 Rigby loaded as before or with 400 grains softs at either 2400 or 2600 fps and a 50 caliber shooting 570 or 600 gr @ 2450 fps. The 50 is 200% more devasting. The Rigby is not nearly as much of a step up from the 30-06 as a 50 Magnum is from the Rigby.

Shooting solids on the other hand I haven't noticed as big a difference. With the solid you aim is to smash through heavy bone. This seems to be accomplished well with anything .416 or bigger.

Todd E

s

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

gs

The problem is that the great variations in the single instance of a shot makes it very difficult to determine a "real-life" difference. It's (almost) impossible to make two exactly the same shots on game in the wild.

Therefore an advantage of one caliber over another could only be measured by collecting large amounts of data. Even so, for one particular hunter, his experiences could be quite the opposite from the outcome of a strict statistical analysis.

I recently read a summary of a statistical analysis of the moose hunts on the property of a large forest company in Sweden. The number of used shots and distance traveled after the shot was recorded for over 8 800 moose during a period of 10 years. Used calibers ranged from 6,5x55 to 375 H&H.

Shots per moose varied from 1,16 (358 NM) to 1,83 (300 WM but only 27 counts). Distance traveled varied from 19 (again 358 NM) to 57 meters (8x57). Another interesting tid-bit was that the 6,5x55 had the same average for number of shots as the 30-06 (1,57) but a *shorter* distance traveled (43 versus 47 meters). But even in such a large amount of data you have other factors that come into play. I know some of the people that participated in these hunts and know that a large portion of the counts (over 200) for the 358 NM was one single hunter! His expertice will of course make a difference more significant than caliber.

So, to sum it up, if you would like to see a marked difference for your own hunting between one cartridge and another you would have to take a large step up in caliber and/or velocity provided that you could handle the rifle as well despite heavier recoil. And you would have to take a lot of game with both before you could be really sure of that difference.

With regard to whether a 1.25" bullet produces a bigger wound channel than a .94" bullet...YES IT DOES! The twist rate is much greater with the 50 than a 4 bore too.

I have seen buffalo get up (the buffalo was knocked down believe it or not Ripley) after being hit in the head (bullet missed the brain pan) and complete fore to aft penetration with a 50 caliber rifle. Now how many Pdogs can do that? My statements are not theoretical BS spewed out to impress someone. This is real life experience and if you wish to believe that some 30, 8mm, 338, 375, or whatever is just as good or better than a true big bore so be it! I do not care. If you hunt enough dangerous game your belief system will prove out natures law of natrual selection.

The 375 is a minimum for good reason. It is marginal at best as are the other 30 - 9.3mm bores below it. It will kill as will a 303 British. It just takes the animal that much longer to die (unless the brain is scrambled). This time differential can be problematic when the critter decides he does not wish to die ALONE.

By the way, once you piss these big boys off they are much harder to put down. That is probably why many game departments use fully automatic FN FAL rifles.

One last note. You only truly need enough penetration to traumatize the vital organs. I was only attempting to provide my experience to your discussions. My experience unfortunately has almost exclusively been with large calibers. I to, believe it or not, am interested in learning if there is a noticeable difference between the calibers as you progress up the scale from 30 caliber to 416.

Now you are free to flame away on me.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 03-10-2002).]

The South Carolina study has similar date at http://ulfhere.freeyellow.com/ballistics/game_study.html

My own observations, on whitetail deer, are that the 7mm Rem mag and 30-06 are about the same and that the .358 Winchester has more effect. But the bullets are not at all alike with the smaller ones similar in SD and BC and the .358 bullets much less in SD and BC.

In theory I seems obvious that the bigger bullet will be more effective with the costs mentioned by John S plus more meat damage.

Caliber makes a difference when you want or need to move more weight. I don't wanna get into the nitty gritty yet, but basically the more weight the bigger the punch, the heavier the bullet, in a lot of cases, windage becomes less of a factor. You make a bigger hole which gives you a better chance of recovering game. Heavier bullets:caliber fly better than light bullets:caliber.

I'll leave it to you rum/vodka/cognac drinkin' cigar afficionado's to quibble over the details, I'm just stating the basic to-do's, hahah...

Crawlin' back into my hide....

JR

I'm wondering if no matter how big the bullet, on hippo, rhino, buffalo, or elephant, if you don't kill them, do you only piss them off?

Also, what is the point at which one feels comfortable with a caliber, or better, bullet weight, knowing that if you miss the vitals, the bullet has a chance of breaking a bone, and planting the animal?

Perhaps the question should not bet caliber, but bullet weight?

gs

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

Perhaps the question should not bet caliber, but bullet weight?

Not just bullet weight, but bullet type plays a role too! on flight and damage..

I think everyone got uptight about my statement with regard to the 4 bore. At least that is the only thing I was questioned about. Lets see. I got questioned about penetration. I said the 4 bore did not penetrate as well as the 500's did. I got questioned about bullet diameter. I said the 4 bore had a hard cast alloy slug of .94" while the .500 soft points expand to 1.25".

The Rigby expands to about .75" with a soft point. With regard to penetration in my experience the 375 is not as good as a 30-40 Krag or 308 FMJ. The best penetrating round is a 410 solid at 2680 fps out of a 416 Rigby. Well that last statement excludes the 50 BMG.

Now I have provided my experience (at least some of it)and covered the big end pretty well. I would like some more insight into the performance of the medium bores.

One last note. The SDs and BCs of the various big bores I have shot vary with caliber sometimes significantly. I usually load to get the maximum out of the bullet available not necessarily the maximum out of the case. For instance the 505 Gibbs and 500 AHR are both capable of pushing 600 grains slugs well in excess of 2650 fps. I load my 500 AHR to 2400 fps because above this and the bullets begin to fail.

Socrates,
You can blow the heart and lungs out of a buffalo or bear for that matter and if he is pissed it won't hardly slow 'em down. In that case you must shatter a shoulder to turn the charge or, much better by far, the brain shot. The spine is typically an unlikely target when you are getting charged by a bovine *head is in the way), but is a possible target with a bear.

I hope I answered everyone's questions so I can sit back and learn about the medium bores.

Todd E

Todd: It's hard to believe that something at the weight of the 4 bore solid,nearly 3 or 4 times that of the 600 grain bullets you use in your 50's, and hard cast alloy,
at a reasonable velocity, would not penetrate better, considering it's diameter.

This really flys in the face of all my handgun experience, and many others, where given a pretty much constant velocity, the best increase in penetration comes by adding bullet weight, not caliber, or more velocity.

This with all bullets being Keith style, and cast very hard, with little chance of breaking up, or deforming.

However, as diameter does get to large, the optimum penetration is lost. For example, a 45 Colt is outdone in penetration by a 475 Linebaugh, but, the 500 can't generate enough speed to get the larger diameter bullet to penetrate furthur then the 475, and, you can't add enough bullet weight to get more penetration either.

gs

I have never shot a 4 bore, but everything I have ever heard was that the 4 bore did not penetrate as well as a 450 NE. What I was actually told once was that the 4 bore performed penetration wise about the same as an 8 bore. I have experience with an 8 bore and it could not penetrate a rail road tie at 30 yards! That was if I remember correctly a 1300 grain slug and 320 grains of Fg! The frontal area is too great for the measly velocity you get. The bore guns are only good for about 1250 to 1500 fps. They produce so much smoke from a shot that you are literally blinded unless there is a good stiff breeze. In my experience a good 3" magnum 12 gauge was as good a penetrating round as the 8 bore. Now how many people would hunt dangerous game with a 1 3/8 ounce 3 in 12 gauge slug? Now I will add that we did not shoot wheel weights out of the 8 bore for fear of tearing up the old damascus steel barrel. We fired what we had been told they used in the days when that rifle was in use. That being paper patched lead! That stuff is soft.

The bore guns went away for a reason. They lacked penetration, they were too heavy, they produced awesome smoke screens, and finally the lighter Nitro guns outperformed them hands down.

Todd E

Intresting that you couldn't use harder materials... Never heard that one...

gs

There you said the right words....

The bullets in your 500 expand to a bigger diameter than the 4-bore have....then it do bigger wound channels....

How big diameter do you think a 585 nyati can expand to whit 750 grain woodleigh soft nose bullets...?

As far as, the buffalo goes. I guess it was a bad shot. I missed the brain pan. The bullet struck the nasal area and punched through the pallet, into the neck muscle and through the thorasic and abdominal cavities before exiting through the pelvis between the legs! I would have to say that was damned good performance for both caliber and bullet, after all it made it through approximately 9 or 10 feet of buffalo. The buffalo was hurting pretty bad too. It was exhaling chunks of lung and liver the size of your hand and losing massive quantities of blood. His buddies surrounded him for a minute or so before I could put the finisher into him. They came over when he went down, one nudged him with its nose the others stood facing me with their asses toward the wounded one. Once the wounded buffalo got up they walked around him for 30 seconds or so and then the little party broke up and I got a second bead on his head, bang end of story.

If you haven't been over to Africa you really should go. If it is too expensive (I can understand that) the American Bison is relatively the same size (actually bigger in my opinion)and much more affordable. You can buld yourself a 500 and shoot one of these big boys and then you will know for sure and these nagging questions will no longer be there. I really wish Overkill would do this at least.

Socrates,
A knowledgeable old English gentlemen as I remember was the one who told my Father not to shoot hard cast or jacketed bullets in the 8 bore. Therefore, we shot the paper patched rounds. A single shot 8 bore shouldn't be too expensive to make. You could build yourself a muzzle loader and then you too could see how the 8 bore works first hand.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 03-12-2002).]

I'm not doubting your word one bit, just pointing out it surprised me, and the reasons why.

I'm sure using soft lead, terrible penetration, in particular with such a large frontal area...

gs

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

I agree the soft lead does tremendously reduce penetration. Again the bore guns were replaced for a reason. The 450 NE is no more powerful than a 458 Win Mag. The 450 NE is considered to be vastly superior to the 8 and even 4 bores. How many guys that post here give the 458 Win Mag any respect?

The bore guns are nice novelty items. I really believe though that you could get yourself a muzzle loader made up pretty cheap. Just think of the questions you would be asked at the range! Particularly after someone watches you pour 300+ grains of Fg powder down the pipe!

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 03-12-2002).]

Have the loaded rounds, with 270 grain softpoints, from federal sitting here, waiting for the rifle, and, I've got the dies and reloading presses, waiting to be setup.

While an 8 bore sounds intresting, I'm going to work up, little by little.

I also, find it weird that the 458 gets so little respect, yet, many people have, and use this caliber, and, report it kills very well.

I guess it's inability to push 500 grain bullets at 2400 fps make it the Rodney Dangerfield of big bore rifles. Weird.

Yet, it recoils too much for many, so they end up with a 416 or 375. Very strange.

I think perhaps the reason for the end of the big bores was not game performance, but recoil.

Can you imagine a 4 bore, or 8 bore, going off, with no modern day recoil pad?
How many broken shoulders did that produce, and, how many bad shots ended up in dead hunters, since, by the time the smoke clears, the elephant, or buffalo is 3 feet away, and mad as hell...
gs

Actually I can. I fired my Father's 8 bore double the first time when I was 16. It kicked about like my Fathers's friend's 500 NE H&H Royale. The 8 bore weighed around 18 or 19 pounds if I recall. The 500 was I think around 11 pounds. My 505 Gibbs was a little stiffer in the recoil department. The 505 weighed about 10 pounds. The 8 bore sadly burned in a house fire back in 83 so it has been silenced forever.

Back in the late 60's and early/mid 70's these classic cannons were cheap as hell. I think the 8 bore went for about $1500, the 505 was $1200 and the 500 H&H was I think $3000. We made our own brass for the 8 bore by the way.

Todd E

Thanks for the information.

gs

He went on to say that this would define a rifle for non-dangerous game but that he felt that for dangerous game that hunters may never leave the big bores.

I read a comment once from a member from Denmark, perhaps it was here, who said that preditors have less of an ablity to deal with such shock.

To me the .45's are high kick and low hit. I don't have a use for one. If I was going to Africa for dangerous game I would rent one. I have owned them and to me they are not a lot of fun.

quote:

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:
So you have two bullets almost with the same BC and sectional density and Vel.. But one is a bigger caliber then the other one. When does it start to make a differants to what it hits. Does it show in a 30-06 and an 8mm with the same type of bullet or to have to have a bigger size differants to have it show up in the feild.

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The only difference worth mentioning between my dear 8x60/.318" and a .30-06 is the uncountable amount of cases, bullets and loads for the .30-06. For my 8x60 there are only three or four several bullets available, if I don�t got a swager. The performance in the field is equal.

As you put it, there should be larger differences, if they should be percievable.

Best regards,

Fritz

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...the mark of the hunter is the ability to get close.

[This message has been edited by Fritz Kraut (edited 03-12-2002).]

While I am a caliber fan, in the minority here, it seems, doesn't a large mass, already larger, expanding bullet, expand to larger size then a small, skinny one?

In other words, if we took a 220 grain partition, in 308, and compare that to a
375 300 grain, expanding bullet, which is going to have the largest mushroom, and the greatest penetration?

Just for arguments sake, how about if we put the 308 bullet in a 30 inch RUM, at 3000 fps,
and, the 300 grain, in a 375 at 2600 fps?

And, for added comparision, move up to a 458 bullet at 2200 fps, soft point, or something like it, or all bullets partitions???

Then we can bring Todd in with his 505 Gibbs, and get a really giant hole, with an expanding bullet...

gs

gs

I agree with "allen day" on this one. There are too many factors in determining which cartridge is "best." I have seen a moose drop with one shot through the heart, and if you watch the hunting video "Love Thunder And Bull II," you will see a moose taking one .416 shot at close range through the lungs, then the moose runs around the hunter and then drops with a second shot from the same gun. In this case at least, my friend with his .30-06 made a big difference.

[This message has been edited by Ray, Alaska (edited 03-14-2002).]

Although I doubt that if that particular moose was shot with a 30-06 through the lungs he would have gone down as quickly as he did from the 416 hit. As long as both shots were made with soft points.

I once saw a moose take four hits in the chest and one in the jugular with a 338 Win Mag. Bullets used were 230 grain fail safes.
Which would have been better in this instance a 30-06 or a 416?

Todd E

In my example above (in my previous post) the difference was made when the smaller .30-06 bullet punctured the heart. The larger bullet from the .416 passed through the lungs missing the heart, so the moose had time to run around. It was probably half dead with the first shot, but still running. The guy was trying his .416 in Alaska before going to Africa.

Most of the moose I have killed have dropped with one shot from my .338WM. I use 230-grain FS bullets, and last year a 250-grain NOS. However, I learned to shoot moose with my hunting partners' help. At the beginning it was most difficult to learn the exact location of every vital organ, but once I did it was very easy to hit the right place. Since I am a meat hunter I only take shots through the heart or the center of the lungs. It means that I aim low on the chest so the bullet strikes right behind the shoulder bone. This shot will sometimes break one or both shoulder bones, and it will also hit the heart.

Have you watched Saeed's videos? If you do you will notice how fast the game he shoots drops when the bullet hits the right spot, and how much longer it takes if not. He uses a big wildcat, .375/404 I think.