"Big wildcat" is a relative term. I think Saeed gets 200 fps more then the standard H % H factory loads, and, I don't think he's all that enamored with the round, just something he put together. Ask him if the extra 200 fps over a standard H & H 375 makes that much difference, and, I think you will get an answer, if he's not being humble, that the most important factor is his shooting ability, and bullet placement.

If it was not, he'd be using the 577 T rex.

gs

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 03-14-2002).]

P Dog, I'll try to give you some mid cal feed back...In my younger days, I put alot of PA venison in the frezzer using a 22 mag. Kind of neat what they can do up to about 75 yards when you put it behind the ear of a deer. But most of my hunting was done with a 30-06, great gun, still have it. But I wanted something that shot flatter for long range kills. So I bought a 243. worked great on groundhogs, but after I lost a nice buck with a lung shot at 350 yards, I bought a 7mm rem mag. With this rifle, I have killed deer at to 600 yards with no loss. The difference in caliber on the 7mm and 243, is there a difference???? but there is more bullet weight and speed. I have since bought a 300 win mag, mainly because I wanted one, but also because I now live in the mid west with access to some excellent Elk hunting and wanted the extra punch. I personally feel that it is not so much just the diameter of the bullet that makes the difference as the difference being comprised of two factors... Bullet weight, speed. But then again, if you can't place the shot, it makes no difference what you use... Just my 2 bits Ed

Ray,
Unfortunately the heart shot does not guarantee a quick demise. I have blown hearts out of animals that have managed to run quite some distance. If this animal is of the dangerous variety it can get a little exciting.

You did not answer my question though. Would the animal die quicker with the 416 or 308 if shot in the exact same spot?

I have seen four bison through the heart. They were shot with a 30-06, 300 Win Mag and a 338 Win Mag. Not one of them went down with the shot. In all honesty they did not even seem to notice they had been shot. They just stood there or pranced a little and after a couple of minutes dropped. They essentially suffocated on their feet.

I do not need to watch someones vidoes to see how animals react to being shot. I have literally shot and killed hundreds of critters over the years. Some of the toughest have been crows and pigeons. I have shot them multiple times with 22 LR and they still wouldn't go down. Hell I once shot a pigeon with a 45 ACP at about 10 feet and there was a terrible thump the bird was knocked backward a bit he got up and flew off. I found the flatten bullet in the dirt mixed up with a little blood and some feathers. Believe it or not.

Todd E

I imagine the bullet out of the largest barrel would create a bigger hole as long as both expand as they should. If both bullets were solids, then for sure the bigger one would create a bigger hole.

But my point was that:
1. Allen day's statement makes great sense.
2. A heart shot has a greater chance to kill the animal sooner than a lung shot, even if that is not always the case. Most bears (not all) drop pretty fast when shot through the heart, while other may continue moving a few yards without a heart, but still, in most cases it takes longer to suffocate and bleed (lung shot) than to die from massive blood loss from the heart, since it's under pressure.

I will tell you about two cases where bears died fast. One of the cases was not documented (both true):

a. A couple of years ago there were two moose hunters near the Denali Hwy. One was Native, and his white friend from the Lower-48. They were walking on a trail, and a grizzly charged the Native guy and toppled him. While the bear was chewing him, the other hunter shot the bear through the heart with a .30-06 at point blank killing it on the spot.

b. Last year near the area I hunt moose, there was a trapper who was also hunting moose with a couple of friends. He saw a large grizzly bear, and took a shot at it with his .375 H&H. The bear ran, so they waited about 20 minutes and started tracking it. A while longer, the trapper saw the bear on its back, perhaps 40 yards away, so he got closer. But then he noticed that the bear twitched one if its legs and then the bear had jumped up and charged, so he didn't have time to fire his rifle. The bear grabbed his legs and toppled him, but before it had time to chew him, his hunting partner shot the bear through the heart at close range. The trapper survived with scratches on his stomach and chest. Before tracking this bear, the trapper though that it had been shot through the chest, but when the bear jumped him, he noticed that the bear's guts where hanging out through a hole on the stomach.

Ray,

In my experience there is little blood lost with a heart shot. This seems pretty logical when you consider the heart is the pump and without it there is no pumping and therefore no blood pressure. On the contrary a major arterial hit produces massive hemmoraging and rapid bleed out. Either way suffocation is the final result. Since either the lungs are gone or the pump oxygen rich blood isn't getting to were it needs to.

The only sure one shot kills result from brain or close spinal hits. All the others are dependant upon the individual animal and their response to the trauma induced to them by the projectile.

Todd E

It is true that sometimes a heart shot my not create massive bleeding, but the bullet may paralyze the heart or put a big hole through it. So far most of the moose I have killed have dropped with one shot through the heart, and some others with a shot through the center of the lungs. But the fastest kills have been from heart/shoulder shots. I won't take neck shots.

Two years ago I shot a moose a little high through the lungs. This moose was 100 yards out, and I used a 230-grain FS. By the time I had reloaded the chamber for a second shot the moose was down. The bullet must have hit an artery, because when I walked to the moose blood had been sprayed all over the vegetation at the other side. I haven't had the need to fire a second time, except for a time or two.

I don't hunt bears, but my hunting partners do, and their favorite shot is through the heart. Most drop on the spot, specially those that are not aware that we are somewhere near.

And what the f..k did the bear do to you?

gs

Socrates: Nothing.

I have never had a bear charge me nor my hunting partners. I don't like bear meat, so I don't hunt them. Grizzly and black bear seasons in Alaska overlap, so while my hunting partners may hunt all these species, I hunt moose only. At times they ask me to accompany or help them them on bear hunts, since they also help me when I kill a moose.

Bit short, Ray.
What I was intrested in is what prevokes bear attacks?

gs

Socrates who cares what the bears do I like shooting them. I like shooting a lot of things. Most haven't done a thing to me. I a have shot hundreds of big game animals and who knows how many thousands of small game amimals. Its all fun.

Ray and Todd a heart lung shot is a good killing shot the animal well die most will go for a bit after wards. Lung shots most well go for about 50 to 100 yards. The best I like a some what front faceing shot breaking the neck shoulder and raking heart and lungs most of the time drops them right there. But some times they still run nothing is 100% that why we hunt if we were always sure would we hunt. Or breaking shoulder raking heart and lungs and breaking off shoulder works well. For these you need a good bullet heavy for caliber. When in dought I like to shoot them more then once. They things that can hurt and kill you should always have the insurance payed before you get to close bullets are cheap.

p dog shooter: I agree with you about heart or lung shots; with my hunting partners they seem to work on any game, and for me at least on moose... with outstanding results. Winters here are very long, so I have lots of time to watch moose in my backyard and memorize the exact location of the lungs and the heart from different angles. Then in September I leave the city for the hunting grounds, and have been lucky enough to kill a moose each year for the past seven or so seasons. Now it is fun just to be out there hunting and enjoying the outdoors with my hunting partners, but a moose every now and them is very welcomed. It is very easy to drop a moose with one shot (from a large or small gun) once one has learned the location and can hit that spot. It becomes somewhat of a routine to drop a moose, but that's easy part.

Socrates: I have no idea why bears charge humans. I see bears all the time while moose hunting, and my hunting partners and I have had to scare them away from our tents. Some have raided our campsite, and a few years back a black bear destroyed an empty tent I had erected at a remote location. According to some biologists, bears and other animals may easily get exited when the "safety zone" around them is invaded by other animals or humans. Most times they run (once they realize a human is near), but sometimes they charge to pummel the invader regardless of kind.

Female animals (bear, moose, and others) are very protective of their young, and bears keep a large safety zone around themselves. Calving moose can charge humans, dogs, and anything that gets too close, but their safety zone seems to be smaller. Male moose are known to charge when cornered, during the rut, or when injured; but no moose charge can be compared to a bear charge. I have never been charge by bears, but for the past 100 years a great number of people have been mauled in Alaska. So far, about 56 humans have died from bear mauling in the past 100 years (about 1 person every other year). Getting too close to a bear food cache or kill could be trouble, as well as quietly "sneaking" too close to a bear that is not aware of one's presence; in this instance the animal may feel cornered and charge. Most bears are not predacious, but every now and then one comes along. Also, as we get older our hearing is lost. There have been some cases where humans with hearing loss haven't heard any noise until bears were on top of them.

The following site has lots of information about bear/human confrontations in Alaska. You will notice that a great number of victims were hunters, but the rest were people enjoying the outdoors. After reading the information on the front page, take a look at the "Slide Presentation" for the details.

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/century.htm

Thanks Ray.
I guess they are not all as tame as Bart was.

I recently watched a guy that goes out, and takes a camara into Alaskan Bear country. He's still alive, and he does not carry, so, so far, he's been lucky.

Griz get within 10 feet of him, since, I guess they figure he's no threat, and, so far, he hasn't run into a bear in a bad mood.

Went through a book called Elephant Man. It was about a kid that wanted to be an elephant trainer.

His main message was people don't realize animals have tempers, too. You piss off an elephant, or he's having a bad day, and he leans on his trainer in a stall, and, the trainer dies. Elephant wasn't really mad, just a bit pissed. However, people die when elephants are pissed. Guess it's the same with buff, bears, and, I guess elk???

Course, deer can nearly kill you, in their season, not ours...

Odd that the smarter the animal, in the case of whales, the better behaved they are.

If killer whales get mad, it's really scary.

But, they seem to have great self control, as do all the great whales, except for sperm whales, more or less.

I really enjoyed the films this guy took, getting close to the bears, watching them for over ten years, and, they are still around.

One, rather large, male griz, almost came at him. Still, I'm betting he figures he'll be ok, and I hope he's right...
gs

Socrates: A few years back there was a guy who worked at the University of Alaska (I think). He was Japanese, and since he had lots of experience with bears he would get very close to them. Then somewhere in Russia, he was "spending time with the bears," and one night while he was sleeping outdoors (by the bears) he got killed by one. The rumors were that he had decided to sleep outdoors since he was so confident the bears would not bother him.

I don't remember the guy's name, but he was well known around the world. He died about four years ago.

While I share their desire to make sure the bears continue to exist, I would prefer not to argue with St. Peter about the merit, or intelligence, of sleeping, unarmed, with dangerous, wild animals.

I wonder which way you go on that one??

gs