The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Velocity velocity velocity!!!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Velocity velocity velocity!!! | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Velocity is the name of the game, speed kills! Big slow heavy bullets are obsolete, velocity is what gives a bullet it's killing power. Momentum is useless, I can roll a big heavy bowling ball down a lane, and make all 10 pins fly, that's momentum, my .270 will barely knock down one pin. My .270 will kill anything on the planet, the bowling ball might kill a small rodent, but it travels so slow they could jump out of the way. | ||
|
| one of us |
Don't you just hate it when people go off their medication? | |||
|
one of us |
quote: Yes, | |||
|
| <ovis> |
Looks like we're ignoring shot placement once again, not to mention having the proper weight bowling ball for the job!(  | ||
|
| one of us |
Gsf1200 That has got to be one of the most insane post ever typed. At no point in your rambling was there anything that resembled a rational thought. Everybody who reads it is now a little dumber for having read it. | |||
|
| <MontanaMarine> |
GSF, Good info, I guess a 17 Rem should be one of the best choices for an all around hunting rifle.  MM | ||
|
| one of us |
GSF, I guess that's why all the PH's carry a hyper-velocity rifle for a "stopper". | |||
|
| one of us |
I went to extreme to illustrate a point. To many people think the slower a bullet moves the better. | |||
|
| <MontanaMarine> |
quote: Roger that, But I do not think there is any measureable difference in the killing power of a .270 pushing a 130 gr partition at 3100 fps and a .308 pushing a 150 gr partition at 2900 fps. Both loads with similar bullets will perform pretty much equally. Bullet placement is the most important factor. MM | ||
|
| One of Us |
GSF, reckon how our founding fathers did it with all those muzzle loaders? Sure speed kills...in the proper circumstances. But all hunting is not the same. I can only conclude that you jest with this thread, for your statement is surely funny.  ------------------ | |||
|
one of us |
You have got to be kidding. Do you have any experience at all with big bores and hunting? I don't think you do, I don't think you have much experience with your .270 either if you say it will kill any thing on the planet, sure it will kill, a .22 lr will kill anything on the planet if you pump enough rounds into what your shooting or let the animal die a slow painful death from not usuing enough gun. Have you ever shot a game animal with your .270? How aboout with a 45-70 pushing a 350 gr bullet at 2000fps? If you had you wouldn't have made such an idiotic post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------ | |||
|
| Administrator |
Gentlemen, Here are two extremes on bullet performance, I understand a PH has proven that a 22 LR short will kill an elephant if shot just behind his shoulder as the front leg moves forward. I have also read of elephant hunters in the last century who have pumped upto 28 4 bore lead bullets into an elephant before they dropped it. ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
|
| one of us |
quote: Damn! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think GSF has missed the point again. And I would venture that Saeeds post reflects an extreme and not a normal occurance. Given normal circumstances, I will take the bore over a .22, but don't want either of them. Try location, location, location as a theme to hunt by, meaning bullet placement and use an adequate caliber. The bowling ball argument is like the one I have heard before that asks would you rather get hit by a volkswagon travelling at 70 or a bus travelling at 5. Stupid argument and irrelevant. How about a bus at 50 and volkswagon at 90. Neither but they both will kill you. | |||
|
one of us |
I have never known an animal to outrun any bullet. | |||
|
| one of us |
I think shooting a 4 bore rifle that many times at one animal might be almost as painful as having the elephant run over you. | |||
|
| one of us |
I would surmise that fellow developed quite a flinch by the time it was over. | |||
|
| one of us |
Yeah, But think how he felt when he took the gun back to trade in on a bigger gun and all he could find were 20mm Bofors cannon! Last time I got a ticket I was eligible for Driver's Ed and they showed us a movie that indeed supports the claim that speed kills. | |||
|
| <JerrBear356> |
Velocity kills, but too much velocity ruins the meat. You need the right combo. | ||
|
| <333-OKH> |
What about a bowling ball at 2500 fps? Course the recoil might be a little unruly, but then it should kill like a 270; GFS, would you like to run this experiment and post your results? ------------------ | ||
|
| One of Us |
quote: Jerr, no argument that velocity CAN often enhance killing properties, but too much velocity can do more than ruin some meat. It can also produce some spectacular failures, whereupon the one likely to get killed may be the hunter if it is a dangerous animal! I'll take my direction here from the guys who have spent a life time hunting the big dangerous critters. I think all of us would feel pretty naked armed with say a .220 and a big grizzly suddenly stood up in front of us. I think I would shout, "Special Delivery for Mr. Bear," gently hand him the rifle and run like hell. Never forget: ------------------ | |||
|
| Administrator |
DB Bill, "...I think shooting a 4 bore rifle that many times at one animal might be almost as painful as having the elephant run over you..." Some were actually knocked off their horses by the recoil! ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
|
| one of us |
Well your comparisons are like apples and oranges. Try comparing a slow big bore and a small fast bullet. Both respected for their ability to take the game chosen. Example I shoot a .300 Win. Mag. Pretty fast as .30 cals go. I also used a 45/70 Contender a few years. Let me tell you that slow moving 350 grain bullet from the 45/70 flatened deer every bit as well as the 165 grain bullet from the .300 when used at approprite yardage. For my life I would take the 47/70 if attacked by a dangerous animial. Speed alone is not what kills. The correct projectile put in the right place at the right velocitys for it to work as intended is what kills. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
The only redeeming factor to velocity without going to the extreme in either direction is trajectory..If trajectory is all important then velocity is a valid point. On the other hand it is the enemy of penitration, the scourge of bullet integrity, a destructive element to the preservation of edible meat and the cause of many wounded animals when carried to the extreme. It has its place but so does the heavy slow bullet..Use them both as needed. ------------------ | |||
|
| <Don Martin29> |
Velocity is the name of the game! It's the only way to improve our ability to hit the target. We just need to use bullets that will stay together. Using the "45-70" is living in the 19th century but that's ok as this is a hobby. | ||
|
| one of us |
I guess if velocity is all there is, we can forget about woodscraft, stalking ability, range estimation, and marksmanship as facets which will help us hit our targets. Just buy the latest screamer, shoot a box a year, and brag about your velocity the rest of the time. And if you miss, its 'cause the bullet failed, not you of course. ROFLMAO. | |||
|
one of us |
To Elmer Kieth Time for another haunting! | |||
|
| one of us |
How big a hole will a bowling ball make in moose? Will ball nock moose down? If moose knock down, is it a strike, or two balls to knock moose down a spare? Somebuddy who knows please help? | |||
|
| one of us |
What does velocity have to do with accuracy? Nothing. The two are not linked. Certain rounds, weapons, etc... are inherently accurate. Flatter trajectories are considered more accurate but that's a pretty shallow way to look at accuracy. It may make it easier to hit but not necessarily more accurate. The funny thing about woodcraft and shooting ability is that some seem to be trying to separate the two from hunting. If they do not remain intertwined I see serious ethical problems and the antis having some credibility about "murderers". The hard part is that "woodsmanship" is much harder to teach/learn than marksmanship. All I can offer for evidence is from sniper training. The majority of failures were in stalking, not shooting. The marksmanship requirements were difficult but once you qualified the hard part started-stalking. Get busted-go home. Trajectory is just that-know your bullets, dial in your dope, and hit your target. Sorry if I ranted. I just used to hear non shooters use low velocity as an excuse-rifles and handguns-look at what happened to the 1911. Best, j ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
[QUOTE]What does velocity have to do with accuracy? Nothing.[QUOTE] My .264 is most accurate at the highest velocity and pressures. At least in my case, velocity must have something to do with it. | |||
|
| <Paul Machmeier> |
GSF 1200 Weatherby just called, you have a job offer or was it Lazzaroni?? However your PH just cancelled your African DG Safari. More to it than just velocity, 2300-2400 fps, good quality bullets, good section density, peneration, all with bullets stable at resonable velocity which hang together. At least that's my choice! | ||
|
| <Dr. John> |
here is an experiment I did. I had a 6mm rem in a ruger m77. I also had a 458win mag in win mod70. 6mm load 55gr nosler balistic tip at around 3800ft/s, the 458 load 350gr speer at around 2350 ft/sec. lined up many plastic milk jugs filled with water at 100 yards, set side by side about 3 feet apart. shot one jug with 6mm. blew up...spectacular show. BUT.....then shot a jug with the 458. blew up main jug, knocked over the 2 other jugs at either side, and made a nice huge crater in the mound out back. trust me...that "slow" slug is what I want to use. and I never have to worry about the bullets failing as much as with the fast cartridges. always works. that's a good thing | ||
|
| one of us |
Velocity can be good and can be bad when I am p dogging lots of vel is very good. When shooting really big stuff you need enough to get your bullet into the proper place break bones ect. But not to much so the bullet fails. Saying it is good or bad depends on what your shooting both gun and game wise. | |||
|
| one of us |
Just read my last post and would like to clarify and seek input. I stated that velocity has nothing to do with accuracy. In other words just because a rifle has a flatter trajectory at a given distance doesn't necessarily mean it's more accurate. If a given weapon/cartridge combination hit a given POI (within cone of fire or standard deviation) you have it's accuracy. Applying that accuracy is marksmanship. I used to have trajectory tables of various rounds so that the rifle could be fired without seeing the target and still hit. Granted, there was a lot involved but the principals and concepts of the weapon/cartridge accuracy still apply. That's why I don't believe that velocity has a large play in what many call accuracy and I call marksmanship. If a 300 turboshortmagplus consistently hits X-1 at 500 meters and a 45-70 consistently hits X-45 at 500, is there a difference in accuracy? I don't think so. Both are "equally" accurate. Marksmanship is putting each on target. Granted flatter trajectory may make it easier but let's not be a victim of too much technology overriding the need for superior marksmanship. I won't start on "hunt" ability or terminal ballistics. I have ideas and observations but I'd like to keep learning from you guys. By the way I do shoot a .17, 30-06, 300wm, 376 steyr. I like them all but I'm also one of those guys who carries a 45 ACP only because they don't make a .46 ACP. Best, J ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Don Martin29, You ever heard of target practice? Range time will make you a better shot than high velocity will. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
quote: Ever heard of wind drift? Your morgage is on the line at your next 1000 yd match in a class that allows "300 turboshortmagplus'." Do you "bet the farm" and try to win with a 45-70? If so, good luck finding a nice cardboard box somewhere...because you won't win. | |||
|
| one of us |
JonA Absolutely. Read your mirage, heat waves, wind, etc.... Apply the dope and take your shot. I've shot quite a bit at a km or better. It's called marksmanship-applying the accuracy of your weapon. I never said it wasn't easier with some rifles than others, but each weapon has it's own accuracy. Once we know how it shoots, we can offset the effects of sun, wind, etc... and still hit our target. But, still, I refer to that as marksmanship. I guess it may be semantics, but it's the way I learned it. ------------------ | |||
|
one of us |
I was going to weigh in with a long response, but your post made me too dumb to come up with a response, so I leave you with the following instead: WHATEVER! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Greg R (edited 05-16-2002).] | |||
|
| one of us |
GregR Why did my post make you dumb. I know it sounds weird, it's just the way I clear it up in my head. Of course every round or rifle has limitations. I just don't like seeing velocity being used as a crutch for a lack of marksmanship. It takes practice. I'll go back to my hole now, but I would love to hear what you have to say. You certainly have done a lot of things that I haven't. Most of my knowledge comes from military training. J | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Velocity velocity velocity!!!
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
