Just interested in how you perceive Alt's deer management changes in the state. Are you seeing more or less deer? Are you seeing larger bucks? I saw fewer deer than I have in other years. I did harvest two doe, but saw no antlers.

Bob257

I think Alts plan or Antler Restrictions and Herd REduction is the best thing to come from the PGC in years. PA is finally on the right track. I saw more big bucks this year on public land than ever before. The taxidermist I use confirmed this as well. Just some real monsters out there ...more so than in years past. Getting the herd back in balance and improving the age structure....I am all for it.



Here are a few from SW PA...This season

I shot an average 8pt.We [3hunters] saw less deer than before.The new laws seem to be trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

I think they are definetly on the right track. We have some property up there ( Rothrock State Forest) that gets literally overrun in orange on opening day (in a state where kids don't go to school on the first day of deer season), the new rules give deer a chance to grow into that MONSTER on the picture. WOW! I am impressed! jorge

Bob257: I believe the changes in PA's regulations will be great if the majority of hunters will accept the idea and be willing to limit herd numbers by harvesting does. There are still a lot of hunters throught-out the NE that believe that does must be protected in order to give birth to the bucks that they all want. As far as those respondents that mentioned seeing fewer deer this year, I spent a lot of time scouting in Maryland, Viginia and PA this past fall and deer numbers seem to be reduced in all of the areas that I was in. Other hunters that I talked with seem to agree with me. I think that a lack of mast the past few years plus a harsher winter in 2002-03 may have had an impact on the survival of yearlings - I encountered quite a few dead yearlings during the 2003 spring gobbler season here in Maryland.

Strangely enough I was just talking about this subject a few moments ago with a co-worker/ fellow hunter. The overwelming philosophy among most of the hunters in our area has been to "let the little ones walk", and it has made an enormous difference in the quality of deer in our part of Iowa. This was not the case 30 years ago when I started hunting, and the difference shows. I hunt with my brother up around Butler Pa. occasionally. I haven't been out there to hunt now for about four years, but the last time I was there, Gary Alt was just beginning to make the changes he wanted to see public, and oh my what an uproar. I think within the next few years, the hunters of Pennsylvania will see the light and will really appreciate the difference quality deer management makes. You guys have a beautiful state, and great hunting areas, and in time, you will have great deer to harvest.

Cheers,
DGK

.could someone explain how a smaller deer herd will improve hunting for the average hunter? Didn't most hunters have fun seeing a lot of deer and shooting a small buck? Isn't hunting supposed to be fun rather than a compition for the bigest rack?

I read some regulations at the PA game commission site trying to understand what the law is for firearms hunting.

There are some vague references to three point or four point requirements for various areas. Nothing was specific.

We were thinking of trying PA again next fall. I still have not given up on the idea but it's not a lot of fun.

They mention that bucks that are shot and don't quite meet the minimum points might be left in the woods. So they are going to put radio's on the deer so they know where they are and what has happened to them at all times. Is this something like Onstar?

The more I think about this the less I like it.

I live in the SE PA shotgun area. I'm in the special regulations area with two extra weeks of doe season. Tommorow, 1/10 is the last day.

In this area, I have seen more deer than ever and many spikes and Y's that are getting by which should grow to be good bucks in the next few years. Its nothing to see 15-20 deer herded up in small woodlots.

We have lots of deer, particularly does, hence the extended season. Part of the reason, unfortunately, is the rapid expansion of development which is pushing more deer onto less available cover. The other problem is some places where the deer are cannot be hunted, and many refuse to allow hunting where it would make sense and be safe to do so. Since we can't thin the herds by hunting effectively, the population grows.

On the other hand, I have a cabin in Clinton County (North Central PA) and wouldn't even think of hunting deer there. I see so few deer that it wouldn't be worth the trouble to hunt there, yet it is hunted hard by many.

I think Alt's antler restrictions are a good thing, but nothing is perfect. What works in one particular area may not be the best for all areas since topography and demographics are so varied across the state.

I don't know what the answer is, but I think Alt's plan is a good start. Perhaps the Game Commission will further restrict shooting of does in the low deer population areas where it is needed to increase herds in those areas. No matter what they do, someone's bound to be unhappy about it. It's going to be a long, slow process before we see real improvement and will certainly take several seasons to see any change.

khornet......two(2)deer are standing side by side during hunting season...a big 10 pointer and a spike.......which one do YOU shoot...just curious???



Iron Buck.....great deer

Moved out of PA in 1996 after 20 years of living there. I went back this past fall to hunt bow season with friends and I was shocked. I saw more 3 and 4 year old bucks that I had even thought possible. I hope my good fortune was the result of Alt's changes. Perry county's deer population has definatly taken a turn for the better.

Joe

khornet/Savage 99: PA management policy is gradually trying to create a higher quality deer herd. By allowing many 1 1/2 year old bucks to live, the age structure of the buck herd will shift, creating older, more mature bucks. This is the primary reason to have the antler restrictions. In most of the state, a buck needs to have 3 points on one antler to be legal. In areas where deer numbers and forage condition allow it (SW PA), a 4 point per antler exists, as these deer are in better shape overall, even at 18 months of age - witness the photos posted by Iron Buck. There are some exceptions to these rules, for junior hunters for example. Anterless allocations are increased to keep the overall deer population size the same, thus making up for the reduced buck harvest.

Throughout PA and many other northeastern states, the buck/ doe ratio is so unbalanced, that increasing doe harvest and reducing buck harvest would be beneficial to both hunters and the herd. As it is right now, my home state of Maryland has a similar situation and there has been some discussion about limiting buck harvest and increasing doe harvest here. It is not unusual in western MD to see very little rutting sign in Oct/Nov - there are simply more than enough does for every buck and there is no need for bucks to compete for or try to attract does. In many areas of PA and MD, deer populations need to be reduced to insure a quality deer herd - this is especially true in urban areas, where the primary population control is currently the automobile. Body weight and antler developement is miserly in areas where there are simply too many deer. Even with the increased doe harvest, deer numbers in PA will certainly be sufficient in most areas to ensure an enjoyable hunt.

It is true that some bucks will be harvested and left to lay when it is discovered that they don't meet the antler restriction - my father remembered this happening in the 1950's/60's when PA had a three point law - guys would kill spikes and walk up to them hoping to find a third point. We can only hope that honest hunters will do their best to abide by the law.

I have hunted in PA for over 30 years and I personally support PA's decision in this matter and am looking forward to seeing the results as time progresses. From some of the reports that I have heard, buck quality improvement is already being seen.

Savage 99 - I have a spare copy of last years' PA Hunters Guide that I would be glad to mail to you if you want it - PM me if you are interested.

I would shoot the 10pt.Oldguns would you have your son,daughter or friends see no deer all season so you could see one quality deer[what the hell is a quality deer].Maybe it would even score high on your silly scoring system.Hunting to me is to be enjoyed not to try and rack up a high score. that sounds more like a contest with other hunters.

khornet....so you shoot the 10 poointer hmmmmm......a quality deer is a mature deer

I grew up in PA and manage to go back and hunt the first few days of gun season every year. I hunt in SW PA and saw way fewer deer this year than years past, heard way less shooting, and saw less hunters. I did see bigger deer on average at the butcher shop. I did see a whopper buck, but it was screened by brush, so didn't shoot.

I would say the antler restrictions are working. I am torn as to whether I like them or not. It is nice to see bigger deer, but historically that is not what hunting was about in PA. I guess if it really is for the good of the deer pop, I'm for it, but am not convinced. I even remember reading the guys in Deer & Deer hunting said it's not a good idea, so Alt is not the only expert with an opinion.

I'm very convinced the more you turn hunting into a trophy sport, the more you turn it into a business. The more you turn it into a business, the more money it costs to hunt. The bigger your deer get, the more likely out of state hunters will want to come in and pay cash to lease private property to hunt. The worst is if antler restrictions ultimately results in less hunters. Less hunters = less money for the state. All of a sudden, the state starts putting jogging paths & bike trails in your favorite state game lands to attract other recreational activities. Well you can't have hunters & joggers there at the same time, so hunts on state land now become controlled shoots on designated stands on designated days. My imagination is running wild...but there could be a price to pay for bigger deer and forcing a change of traditions.

-Lou

oldguns,you didn't respond to the rest of my question.

pagris,

Thanks for the offer. I should write the PA F&G and get the latest. As I mentioned the website is not all that clear.

We used to hunt stay near Grove City and hunt in a town named Victory I think. We were on my buddies private woodlot but plenty of others were as well.

I think my old PA buddy is thinking of driving just across the line at Port Jarvis, NY and us hunting somewhere between there and Scranton. That section of I-84 has plenty of road kills for sure. I have to confirm where the rifle areas are as well as thats what I want to hunt with.

Well I grew up in PA in the days when everyone went up the mountains to hunt (Potter, McKean,ect counties) I would see sometimes 100 deer in a day and be hard pressed to see a buck. There was also harldy any deer in the farms country areas where I grew up north of Pitsburgh. It has reversed itself in the past few years with more deer than I can ever imagine. If we do not control the does it will be just like the "good old days" lots of deer but no bucks. Now in the area I grew up just north of Pittsburgh there are more deer than you an imagine. And nice bucks are starting to arrive. Gary did a great job on the bear and I am comnfident he will succeed on the deer. Shoot your doe be proud of it and be patient the big busks will come.

I used to hunt Pens,N.Y,N.J,in my younger days.Does-everwhere,tough to see a buck and out of desperation would shoot a fork.
I applaud any game management that improves chances for nice bucks.
There are 2 reasons for hunting
1 "trophy",meaning you value the looks of the animal and
2 meat

Any land will just support so many animals thru winter
so a sound management will limit the herd to what the country can support,making the herd stable and self renewing.If it is legal to shoot spikes and forks,in short time thats all you will get - for the most.
If you dont let the little ones grow there will be no big ones!Seems self evident.The roar comes from folks that absolutely want to score-now,not in 2 years when things are in balance.They dont want to even let a spike escape.
And apparenltly,some call that "having fun". re::
Isn't hunting supposed to be fun rather than a compition for the bigest rack? ...
Well I submit hunting aint no fun, there is nothing more important than hunting and most if not all,including your young 8 year old,would prefer to shoot an 8 pointer over a spike.Ergo- you need to protect the spikes and forks etc,else there wont be any 8-pointers.

So the law should restrict deer hunting to the old ones.

Now to make the meat hunters happy and allow for limited
carrying capacity of the land-you probably have to shoot does- preferably the old fat ones without fawns.

Now come nobody again and question that hunting is serious business

sheephunter

Ironbuck, if that is your deer, congratulations, one heck of a good buck! personally I am in favor of the restrictions. I primarily hunt in the SE corner special regs area and typically hunting property here may only be small woodlots of 5-20 acres. If I chosea to try to have any kind of quality deer management by passing a decent buck to let him grow my neighbor's kid would shoot him on his property. Now those 1.5 year olds have a chance to get smarter and bigger. With all the doe licenses you really need not shoot small bucks for meat, shoot a doe instead. Just my belief and I know it is not for everyone. Now this year I have heard from so many people who hunt "the mountains" who may or may not have had an opportunity at a good buck but the consensus was the same less deer and hard hunting. This is not what PA hunters are used to but will have to get used to. There is alot of information coming out in the papers and such that deer management in PA my not be all that is represented and that the real goal is to minimize the deer herd in order to benefit "non-game" interests. The comission and Gary Alt still have refused to divulge a couple of the primary big money donors ($1,000,00) to the deer program. Speculation is high that it came from an organization not animal friendly. Sportsman, I suggest you all watch carefully what is going on and try to find all the behind the scenes info we can as the true goal of Alt's plan may not be for the good of the deer but more for thed demise of them and our heritage.

A little long but...here's my take on AR in Pa. You have to pass on small bucks, no problem with that. Now according to AR's in Pa. a buck must have 4 points to a side with a point at least an inch long in my area. Spikes, 3's,4's,5's,6's are off limits to me. No big deal yet. O.K. here comes a 12" wide 8 point, estimation 1.5 year old buck. I let him pass because I've shot my share of racks so anyway he walks. He goes down over the hill & another hunter spots him. BANG ,he's dead! Perfectly legal under AR.Should I begrudge this hunter? NO. IMHO you can't control a public herd like a high fenced operation.

Another Scenario-
You see a spiker, illegal according to AR so you have to pass. Next year he's a 4 or 6, again you pass. Following year he's a bigger 6 or decent 8. During the years he's been protected, that buck has bred does & passed his crap genes on.
Now remember, we're talking about a public deer herd. Do you think it's right for a Game Agency to tell you you have to "trophy hunt"? AR is a means for establishing a population of older and larger buck, but that it's not a management style that will cater to the desires of every group of hunters. I personally am kinda on the fence so to speak. I want to shoot big bucks, but what about a guy who has never shot a buck in 20 years of hunting? Or the guy who just starts hunting & is not a junior? For the majority of these hunters, if they can shoot a spike every other year they are happy. Would they be happier if they could shoot an 8+ ptr every other year instead of a spike? Absolutely. But that's not gonna happen with AR+HR. Of these guys, they may end up shooting a larger deer than they are used to, but due to lower deer densities they aren't going to harvest a large deer every other year- they are going to harvest a large deer once every 5 years or maybe have to wait even longer.

I'm sorry, but even though the hunt isn't supposed to be about killing, there is no point in hunting if you aren't happy with your chance of a harvest. For guys like me I'm willing to hunt all archery, rifle, scout year round,and I'm OK knowing that there will be plenty of days afield without even seeing a deer. But to the huge amount of hunters who don't want to do this, who only want to head up to the mountains for opening day of rifle, having to do this for years w/o a harvest WILL add to the hunter attrition rate.Remember, it's one thing to get the members of a camp or a few property owners to agree to self imposed AR in order to increase the size of bucks harvested over time. I'm all for that. It's another thing completely to impose AR across all private and public lands across the entire state and expect a million or so deer hunters to all of a sudden be happy with it.

Also, in 2000-2001 a total of 203,221 bucks were taken in Pa. before Ar. In 2001-2002 with AR, the PGC said there would be a 40% reduction in buck harvest. The grand total buck harvest for 01-02 - 203,247. You see IMO, the bucks have always been there. People usually shot the 1st one they seen. But last year they had to wait & pass up small bucks & actually spend time on stand. Guess what? They were rewarded for actually hunting a whole day by shooting a AR legal buck. We actually shot more bucks with AR imposed. I find this a little ironic.

IMHO, some area's will never produce great racks. Around me the deer are like cattle, they have alot of choices when it comes to eating. Other area's, they eat browse. When the state imposed AR, nutrition was never brought up. Genetics is only part of the equation to growing bigger racks.
You shoot an 8point one year, next year nothing. 3rd year 8 point, 4th year nothing. See the trend? IMO your still not letting bucks reach maturity, as soon as it's legal according to AR, weather it's a basket racked 1.5 year old 8 point, or a 4.5 year old 10, he's dead. I'm of the opinion that AR was just the carrot in front of the horse's nose to get PA hunters to shoot more doe to reduce the herd size overall, which is what the PGC, PA DCNR and USDA Forest Service are really concerned about.

Tped, do you have a link about the money the PGC got for the deer program?

My beef with the new regs isn't that I can't shoot small bucks.It is the idea that the heard has to be smaller to produce these large bucks you lust after.I know three hunters who live to hunt big bucks.They all have taken several trophy deer right here around Butler.Maby the people who want more ~quality deer~ just need to put more effort into their hunting.I believe the fun was taken out of hunting by high tech.Flat shooting compound bows,sentloc cloths,scent drags on your boots walking in,scent lure around a high tree stand,timers and cameras to tell when deer move.I'm sure shooting average pa deer gets dull hunting like this,so now the tech hunter is seting in his stand grinding his teeth in frustration waiting for that buck of a lifetime to walk by.Every deer I take with my flat bow or single shot khornet is a buck of a lifetime.This discussion is pointless anyhow,you won the regs are already here.Maybe i'm just too old to fit in this new world.I don't measure and score my deer, I don't even know a g2 from a f14.would you have your son,daughter or friends see no deer all season so you could see one quality deer?

Khornet, I agree with you. What happened to the old phrase-"Any deer is a trophy?" Alot of guys shot spikes or Y's & were happy. You watch & see how much land starts to get leased around Pa. due to Dr. Fault. Everybody that doesn't have the coin to lease will be jammed on to Game Lands all vying for a herd that's not going to be there. Nothing wrong with taking a doe, but this guys is slaughter, the PGC is out to decimate the herd in Pa., they caved to insurance co.'s, tree farms, ect. Don't B.S. yourselves, you'll get a bigger buck eventually (it's bound to happen by having to pass small bucks), but eventually you'll see more posted land, land with an access fee, & fewer deer.

I remember hunting in Clarion county when I was a kid and
if you didnt get a buck the first day, your best bet was
to go home and wait until doe season. To many hunters,
shooting anything with antlers. I no longer live in PA
and dont get a chance to get up there in deer season. I
do hunt small game occasionally in PA and have noticed the
deer herd is smaller. I also hear the bear kill is incredible now in PA.

Hi ; I lived and hunted in S.E. Pa.(chester area) for 37 yrs. and deer hunted darn near all over the eastern half of the state and then moved to Va. with my work,in all those years I`ve seen different deer management programs come and go and it all boils down to how bad everyone wants it to work,and don`t forget there will always be that one hunter that don`t care what the horns look like or if there is any at all. Zimmy

Don Vito, I agree with all that you have said. The information that I refer to can be found at www.outdoortalknetwork.com this is the wbsite for outdoor writer Jim Slinsky. I have been reading his columns for quite a while and at least IMO he is on target. His column today seems to trace the money to the forest industry which would like the deer heard decimated. He also relates info from the reccently held "overabundant deer conference sponsored by the Audubon Society and forestry interests. FWIW he is stating that it now appears that Gary Alt is poised to be named deputy executive director of PGC which is felt to lead to his taking over the head position of the PGC in the near future. I can't say at this time if this will be good or bad as I do not have nor have evaluated enough info to make a decision.

Tped, thanks for the link. When AR was first proposed I went to a meeting & had a chnce to speak to Dr. fault. My question was simple, "Instead of protecting small bucks, why not shoot them & leave the big bucks alone for a few years to breed & establish good genetics?" His reply & I quote-"IF I said you were only allowed to shoot spikes & 4 points, how many licenses do you think we would sell?" This is a true story & fatc! Think of it this way for a second, -
Say you want to go to Iowa, $302.00 for a non-resident license. You have a legitament chance at a B&C buck. Granted there are B&C bucks in Pa., but if this state can constantly produce bigger racks, the price for non-residents & residents will increase. Herd reduction & money are the driving factor's behind Fault's plan. For years this state had one of the largest herds in the country & one of the largest deer kills. More deer are killed on highways than by hunters in other states. Now all of the sudden the state can't support the herd. I would like to see a form with every license bought to see how many support AR+HR. I would bet there are just as many against it. Of course Fault & the political machine that the PGC has turned into will put a spin on the numbers.

Another thought- talk to hard core duck hunters, they do every thing in their power not to shoot hens. Look at Delta Waterfowl & their "Look For Drakes Program."-"Dead hens don't lay eggs." "Well dead doe's don't have fawns."

I've had the pleasure of hunting in Vancouver with Jim Shockey & here is quote directly from his web site-
"Though female bears are legal quarry in British Columbia, they are off limits to Pacific Rim's hunting clients. This management strategy had been directly responsible for the high Black Bear population. In fact, the population is rising!"
Times are definately changing for Pa. hunters & I for one see a bleak future for our sons & daughters involed in the sport. Any time politics comes into play for wildlife management it's a bad thing. Believe me, politics had a big part in Fault's management plan.

We have to start somewhere, and taking the pressure off the youngsters is a good start.

Although few remember, Dr.Fault understands that the PA Game Commissions previous history with antler restrictions was a dismal failure. The harvest of all spike bucks was prohibited for 28 years (1925 to 1953) in the mistaken belief that all yearling bucks were spikes. Unfortunately, this restriction allowed the unlimited harvest of our best yearling bucks (three-points or better), while prohibiting the harvest of smaller yearling bucks (spikes). Thereby, the spike bucks survived to breed and pass on their inferior genetics.

Obviously, every spike buck does not carry inferior genetics; other factors being equal, an 18-month-old yearling buck with branched antlers (eight points or more) has a greater potential to grow a set of trophy antlers than a spike buck.

This lack of biological knowledge in the 1920s has left a lasting impact on our whitetail deer population. Assuming that a deer generation is about three years, our current deer herd may contain up to nine generations of inferior genetics contributing to the smaller antlers and lower body weight that we observe today in heavily hunted public lands. With the continuing affects from the past dilution of our gene pool, it should be no surprise that some Pennsylvania deer hunters must leave the state to harvest a lifetime trophy

Concerning antler genetics, many deer breeders pay big money, often more than $10,000, for an exceptional buck for breeding purposes. They know bucks with quality genetics will likely father bucks with quality genetics. It is hardly a debatable science for commercial breeders. Logic alone, not to mention our history, teaches that our best yearling bucks should not be selectively removed from our gene pool.

Without knowledge of our past history with antler restrictions, many PA deer hunters enthusiastically support statewide antler restrictions. They have been led to believe that antler development is largely dependent on nutrition and when adequate nutrition is available, all bucks can grow trophy antlers.

If a deer hunter is asked, "Would you like to harvest a bigger racked buck?" the answer given is generally, "Yes." However, many deer hunters do not hunt for large antlers and many others do not realize what the future holds if antler restrictions are rigidly enacted. One buck every ten years for the average hunter isn't something to look forward to. "Just seeing deer" brings satisfaction to most hunters, especially for our youth.

The implementation of antler restrictions (with a point minimum) will turn the clock back 75 years to the flawed deer management policy of 1925. While many aspects of deer management remain counterintuitive and hard to explain, our past experience with antler restrictions must not be forgotten. Any deer management program that selectively removes the best of our yearling bucks is seriously flawed, and against the fundamental philosophy of quality deer management.

Fault knows very well that his antler restrictions will degrade the long-term genetics of our PA deer herd, just as it did before, but is willing to sacrifice our deer herd for his short-term political gain. In his proposal to the Commissioners on October 1, 2001, Fault only focused on antler restrictions for the first two years, 2002 and 2003. In the short term, 2002 is projected to result in a low buck harvest (about 100,000) and the 2003 buck harvest would improve as the yearling bucks saved in 2001 became legal bucks in 2002. Fault�s general projections for 2002 and 2003 are probably correct, but the improvement is short lived. During the next five years (years three to 7), the number of huntable bucks will dramatically decrease. By replacing pregnant does with yearling bucks, the number of future bucks can only decline. Unlike female deer, bucks cannot drop fawns to provide the next generation of bucks.

It is only common sense that when does are over harvested, there will be fewer fawn bucks born the next spring; and fewer yearling bucks the year after; and fewer legal bucks (with antler restrictions) the year after the third season after the doe population is reduced.

The continuing slaughter of does will remove a large number of adult does, the mothers of our future bucks. On average, harvesting an adult doe removes three deer out of our future deer herd, the adult doe and her two fawns (one female and one male).

One important topic was missing from Fault�s presentation to the Commissioners, Fault has consistently said that antler restrictions are needed to correct a breeding crisis caused by an out of balance doe-to-buck ratio, not trophy deer hunting. PGC data shows the breeding doe-to-buck population is 2.24 to one. This ratio was confirmed by Fault�s deer conception study in the spring of 2000. Yet, in October 2000, Fault insisted the doe-to-buck ratio was 10 breeding does for every breeding buck. Recently a biologist at PSU stated the doe-to-buck ratio is still 10 to one. Who is kidding who? What is Fault and his PSU colleagues trying to accomplish?

This overmanagement is quite common in particular in goverment. The more changes they make and measurements the more overhead they need for "studies".

Having read over this PA stuff I don't think I will bother hunting there. As a non resident my chances of getting a doe permit for the Northeast corner may be zero and to just hunt six pointers is quite difficult.

Here in CT we can hunt both bucks and does at the same time. The limit is one buck with a 3" antler and one antlerless or two antlerless. This is for each of the firearms, archery and muzzleloading seasons. That's six deer if you want to bother. The archery season is about three months long.

I doubt PA has anymore deer than CT. It's a nice place to hunt however sans that baloney.

It's the mature bucks that don't make it thru the winters and die of old age. Shooting just bucks with large antlers will cut that feature out of the gene pool.

It's obvious that I've opened a can of worms here. Like most hunters, I would love to shoot bigger bucks. One of the issues for me is that I only get a total of three days to hunt due to my job. (I teach so I get the first day and the Saturdays). My hunting is controlled by the weather too. We had horrible wind on day one and the first Saturday was a "snow out". What would you think of a program where you apply for a doe or a buck tag? They could control the total number of deer harvested that way without antler restrictions. The other issue is the Game Commission is considering opening the doe season during bear, a week earlier. Is this a money making proposition? If you're going to be hunting deer you may as well have a $16 bear tag "just in case"? As to the antler restrictions, I don't think it's that bad, however, I'd like to see the restrictions applied to all hunters, regardless of age. You let a 4 point pass that looks like it could develop into something nice and a youngster shoots it in the next patch of woods. Did we gain? Managing deer is a difficult proposition for sure.

Bob257

Bob, another week of doe, is it a money making proposistion?
Of course! It is also another way to help decimate the herd. As to AR, if you have a minute read this -
http://www.outdoortalknetwork.com/art177.html
it sheds alot of light on AR. People who were awed by Gary Fault & his promise of big bucks should instead of nodding heads like cattle, ought to start reading some different studies other than the bile that spews from Fault's mouth.

I saw lots of deer, but no legal bucks, but it was partly my fault for not getting out enough, and I didn't get out until late in the season, when I suspect most of the bucks had gone nocturnal.

I agree with reducing the deer herd, at least where I live; there are too many deer in my area, and I don't think the numbers killed by hunters are high enough to effectively control them. I saw at least as many deer this year as I have in previous seasons. There are definitely some areas, particularly in the north-central part of the state, that are over hunted. Antler restrictions, in my opinion, are a big compromise as far as reducing the buck kill and increasing the number of mature bucks. I particularly don't like the point restrictions, it makes it hard to judge a legal buck when he's moving, and it allows quite a few immature deer with small 6 and 8 point racks to be killed. If the PGC was really interested in increasing the number and quality of bucks, they'd make the antlered season limited-draw (similar to antlerless tags now), but that would limit license sales.



One thing I did notice this year is that hunter numbers are way down. I think Alt and his antler restrictions have alienated many hunters and caused them to give it up, just when he needed them most to kill off all the deer.



It is fairly obvious from some things that I've read that the cries for herd reduction are coming from forestry and farming. In this weeks Sunday paper, there was a story about deer overpopulation, that stated that the average farmer loses $9000 to deer damage per year! I don't know about other parts of the state, but that would be close to half of what most farms bring in for income here. They also did a study that showed that oak saplings are more likely to grow in fenced off areas, where the deer couldn't eat them...this supposedly proved that the deer were detroying the oak forests. In my area, it ain't the deer that have decimated the forests, its the loggers. Every time I see a load of 12" diameter oak logs being pulled out, it makes me sick. Hunters cry about special interest groups like loggers and farmers having too much say in the deer management argument, but in reality, hunters are the special interest group. In the end, money talks, and there is a lot more money in timber and farming than is generated by hunting.

What's the buck-to-doe ration in PA? All I can tell you is that herd management and antler restrictions WORK. IF the ratio up there is greater than say, 5:1, you've got too many does. In every state where liberal doe tags ( we don't use them much down here in the south BTW) are issued, the deer herd thrives and antler size goes up. And no, unless you are hunting for subsistence ( and who is nowadays?) ANY deer is NOT a trophy. If you want meat, bang a doe and hep the herd out and leave the 4 pts and less alone! jorge