My guide spotted elk and they spotted us. As the elk retreated, I ran to a small evergreen and quickly got set. By that time the elk were silhouetted broadside on the far rim of the mountain top meadow.

There was a beautiful big elk and to his right a lesser bull. I had told my guide that without a "good" rifle rest, I was only confident to 350 yards.

The dominant bull only stayed in place for breif seconds, and not long enough to get sighted and take a shot with my pre-war 375H&H Model 70 shooting 270 grain Barnes-Xs at 2650 fps.

The guide said the lesser bull was legal and I was OKed to take it.

I asked the guide for a range reading and was told he couldn't get one off the elk, so I asked him to read off something close by. He came back with "best guess is 400 yards".

He encouraged me to "go for it", and I mistakenly did take one shot. I aimed with elevated crosshairs at half way up his antlers.

At the shot, the guide said he saw the bullet hit the ground and said it was 3 feet low.

I quickly reloaded, but that elk disappeared over the rim.

I was perplexed at why my shot, with the elevation I selected, hit so low. I had sighted in for a 200 yard zero, and knew that at 300 I would neeed an extra 10 inches of elevation and at 400 would need 22 inches of added elevation.

I convinced the guide to tie a tissue to the tree where the shot was taken, and to go find the hoof prints where the elk was standing. When we found the hoof prints, the guide ranged back to the tree and read it to be near 500 yards.

After I got back home, the low shot still bothered me, so I used the Hornady trajectory calculator to see what my bullet was doing. The answer was that drop was 60 inches, and I had needed at least 4 feet hold over the back of that elk to place a bullet center of chest.

Bottom Line: If I knew how much hold-over would be required, I would never have taken the shot. In my mind, I don't believe I could correctly estimate what 4 feet over the back of an animal at 500 yards would look like.

In my book no harm no foul, you missed the shot and verified no blood, no wounded animal. It happens. This time the miss was due to a bad range estimation, misses happen for a variety of reasons all you can do is learn from it and carry on.
If long shots are expected then practice long shots, that's all you can do Bob.
I hope you had a great hunt other than the missed shot.

Thanks Snellstrom.
I believe in knowing ones limitations.
In this case, my guide was unable to help me comply with my known range limitation.
Even so, I believe that the person with the hand on the trigger has the untimate responsibility for his shooting.

A similar thing happened to me in Scotland earlier in the month, only in this case I knew the range but didn't know the trajectory of my borrowed rifle. I ranged a big stag at 423 (or was it 432?). I normally gong shoot at 500 yards from a sitting position every Friday morning and this was a piece of cake IF I had my own rifle. But I didn't, so quickly calculated the odds of getting closer were better than guessing, since my guide didn't know where his rifle hit at that range.

They gave us the slip, but that is hunting.

Your post also reminds me why zapping something "close by" is not a solution to ranging the animal itself - who knows how far that tree is from the animal?

That's why they scopes with mil dots and other multiple aiming points makes hold over a lot easier.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
That's why they scopes with mil dots and other multiple aiming points makes hold over a lot easier.

None of that matters if someone calls out an inaccurate range reading.

Personally I think judging distance by assuming body size on animals is a joke too as some people advocate.

quote:

I believe in knowing ones limitations.

How would that statement play out if you had dropped that bull in its tracks with that shot?

If I was confident at 350 yards and was told 400 on a small but legal bull and I knew there was a bigger one around. I probably would have passed and kept hunting.
Your biggest problem was poor range estimation, off by 25%! That is not what you pay a professional for. Sounds like Santa needs to bring you a rangefinder for Christmas!

Sure blame the guide for missing and any other problems on your hunt. Never the hunters fault, never.

Bob - Just some helpful advice pal. Get a Bog-Pod, get a bi-pod on your gun, anything other than looking for a tree to rest on. But frankly your guide should ALWAYS carry shooting sticks, ALWAYS!

Not that they would have mattered much in this case, but they could definitely help in the future. Trees suck, and they aren't always where you need them.

quote:

Originally posted by DIs:
Sure blame the guide for missing and any other problems on your hunt. Never the hunters fault, never.

DI what is stuck in your craw? The title of this thread was "MY ELK HUNTING ERROR" I didn't see where he blamed the guide for him missing his shot?

Aaron,
Thanks for the insight. I have read about and considered shooting sticks.
Although interesting, I believe that shooting sticks tend to not be a very common item used by hunters in USA. Thre were 4 professional guides at our hunt camp, and none carried shooting sticks. I am not sure if that is due to predominantly hunting from horseback or just typical of guides in the USA.
I also am of the opinion that the value of shooting sticks for improved accuracy may reach its maximum value at around 300 yards and beyond 300 yards, I think that a person standing behind sticks is going to experience elevation variations that could cause a miss. Maybe no so when sitting.
In my case, I had a solid sight picture, the trigger release was excellent, and the resultant shot impact was "On" in azimuth but "Low", exactly as the trajectory calculations predicted.
A questionaire whether hunters in USA use shooting sticks here might provide some interesting results.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Nisbet:
Aaron,
Thanks for the insight. I have read about and considered shooting sticks.
Although interesting, I believe that shooting sticks tend to not be a very common item used by hunters in USA. Thre were 4 professional guides at our hunt camp, and none carried shooting sticks. I am not sure if that is due to predominantly hunting from horseback or just typical of guides in the USA.
I also am of the opinion that the value of shooting sticks for improved accuracy may reach its maximum value at around 300 yards and beyond 300 yards, I think that a person standing behind sticks is going to experience elevation variations that could cause a miss. Maybe no so when sitting.
In my case, I had a solid sight picture, the trigger release was excellent, and the resultant shot impact was "On" in azimuth but "Low", exactly as the trajectory calculations predicted.
A questionaire whether hunters in USA use shooting sticks here might provide some interesting results.

Bob: I have never seen a real experienced western hunter/guide who does not either carry sticks, use a bi-pod, or both - not for a very long time. I've been a guide for 24 years in the western states, we have at least 10 guides working for us too and ALL carry sticks at all times. I've guided/hunted with lots of guys around the west - they most all carry sticks for clients. A "pro" as you elude too, always has those things necessary for his client to perform well. A set of shooting sticks is paramount, IMO.

Sticks, like a bog-pod can be used lying down, sitting, and standing - thus they can be used to help shots of all distances and if you are carrying them with you, there's no need to look for a tree that's not there. A bi-pod on your gun is also very handy - I use one ALL the time. lying down/sitting, nothing better!

Sounds like you just had wrong distance perhaps, but had there been no worthy tree close - then what would you have done?

quote:

A set of shooting sticks is paramount, IMO.

Absolutely correct.

I think I'd rather leave ammo back in camp than my sticks, lol.

quote:

Originally posted by k-22hornet:

quote:

A set of shooting sticks is paramount, IMO.

Absolutely correct.

I think I'd rather leave ammo back in camp than my sticks, lol.

And/or a bi-pod too. Although it might all be for not, if you left your ammo in camp!

Bob,

Don't beat yourself up, you missed and put in the extra effort to learn why you missed. After a similar experience, I never hunt without a range finder and a tripod (bogpod) that I practice with more than I shoot off of the bench. The wife and I even practice setting it up and shooting using an air rifle in the house. It is never a burden to carry on the hunt and makes a great walking stick. I won't leave my ammo but I always take my binos with range finder and my own bogpod even if I am borrowing a rifle.

AnotherAZWriter: Your experience in Scotland is surprising. I have been fortunate that every ghillie and gamekeeper I have hunted with have been long range shooting geeks and I mean that in a very positive way. Most shot in competition and all knew the ballistics of their rifles intimately. That is why I stopped carrying my own rifle in the UK. They have always blown me away with their knowledge compared to the "cowboys with land access" I have often had for guides. With all of your hunting travel you know better than I that we will all experience "the good, the bad and the ugly" if we get out there enough so we must try and be as prepared as possible. As Bob pointed out in his title to the thread, we are responsible when we pull the trigger.

Larry

After moving out west 15 years ago I don't ever hunt without shooting sticks. My current favorite is the Primos Gen 2 Trigger Sticks. Work fantastic for shooting but also a steady rest for binoculars.

Trigger Sticks

mildots or not, at long range its always tricky, hold over however is easier than reading the wind that can be different on the bullets travel to a specific target in the mountains or the plains..Idaho has wind, wind, wind, so does Wyoming...That is my problem with long range shooting for myself..I'm a 300 yard shooter and 400 yards max under the best of conditions as a rule..Oh I am guilty of shooting longer than that at times but I try not to allow myself to do it..just the way it is.

The other thing (at least in my case) is sometimes on a hunt I simply can't miss, but I have had a few hunts wherein I couldn't hit shit! The gun Gods can be cruel...

I wish I could shoot over sticks, they just don't work for me!! None of my PHs allow me to shoot over sticks, make me shoot off hand and I'm a really good offhand shot, I think its mostly about trigger pull off hand, I call it a controlled jerk!!