Grizzly bears in the Yellowstone Ecosystem are no longer on the "threatened" list under the Endangered Species Act. This just is an excellent example of just how the ESA should work.

Now for the lawsuits to start flying from nonhunting groups....


MG

NEWS FLASH! JUST IN... Grizzly season opens next friday. All of Yellowstone Nat'l Park is open to hunters. Resident tags are $10.00 Non-residents tags are $25.00. Limit is two Boar Griz per day, not to exceed 30 per year. Applications being accepted by computer. Apply at wxw.HZUS.PETR.zom

It will be years of lawsuits. For both the bear and wolf. Let's see, 750+ bears, and some where between the 350 the feds lie about and G&F estimate of 500 wolves. Bears are expanding at about 7% a year and wolves 16%. Do you honestly believe that there will be any huntable populations of moose left? NO! And little or no elk hunting in some areas to boot!

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
NEWS FLASH! JUST IN... Grizzly season opens next friday. All of Yellowstone Nat'l Park is open to hunters. Resident tags are $10.00 Non-residents tags are $25.00. Limit is two Boar Griz per day, not to exceed 30 per year. Applications being accepted by computer. Apply at wxw.HZUS.PETR.zom

Aw man don't do that I was going to be on my way to yellowstone in the morning

Sorry Jarrod, I just couldn't resist. I've personally seen the decline of our Deer and Elk both in WY and MT. My friends that live in those States have had to sit with their thumbs up their arse and watch as Wolves and Grizzlies decimated the spring Elk calves and Deer fawns, aside what mature game they're taking during the winter. Once Gardiner, MT (north gate to Yellowstone Park) would be over run with Deer and Elk on their way (north believe it or not) to their wintering grounds. I have seen them walking down the streets and licking sweet feed remnants out of truck beds. The surrounding fields and ridges were alive with game. Last time I was there (park; Lamar River Valley area) I watched 11 wolves trying to take a big 6 point bull Elk..in broad daylight. I stopped hunting in the Gardiner area. Why? Our Elk and Deer tags went unfilled. Don't you love it when people in big cities sit back and decide the "wilderness" needs large predators again, and no one should dare hunt them. It should be mandatory and everyone sitting on those committee's spend one full year working a livestock ranch and or, working with the LOCAL Game and Fish Officers. Let them personally deal with problem animals and rancher concerns. They would sing a different tune I suspect. Good hunting, LDK

David, the reintordcution of wolves, and unchecked populations of grizzlys, will and is already approaching the biggest calamity and worst fiasco that ever happened to big game in Wy.,Mt., and Id. Anyone that believes the wolves and bears presence has little affect on populations is living in a Walt Disney movie! Having these bears and wolves does not make it any more wild. It has always been wild,hasn't changed one iota, except for now, the region is rapidly becoming devoid of elk and moose.

The plan was bring in the wolf to control the bison, that would be like importing cats to control our rabbits. The meak go fist, elk and moose, or in the cats case, mice.

The lies continue, and the populations of big game decline.

quote:

Originally posted by kudu56:
David, the reintordcution of wolves, and unchecked populations of grizzlys, will and is already approaching the biggest calamity and worst fiasco that ever happened to big game in Wy.,Mt., and Id.

Geez, and I thought up till now that having the TOTAL U.S. population of elk cut back to a few hundred in Yellowstone around the turn of the last century was the worst. FWIW, Dutch.

Might mean having to work for one's game animal, instead of just selecting which one to bring home.

Daks, you don't hunt around these parts much, do you? Dutch.

"These parts" is kind of a wide loop. Where do you mean?

I guess I'm just commenting on the handwringing about how elk numbers are going down. Far as I can tell, they have been higher than they might have been due to the lack of pressure by predators. Now, those numbers are going back down and the moaning about how these predators are killing off "our" elk just means to me that people are actually going to have to work harder to get their animal.

So what? Nobody said it should be easy.

A previous post in this thread said that Gardiner was, at one time, overrun with deer and elk. Now, there are fewer, so people might actually have to go out and hunt some instead of just selecting the animal one wants out of a bunch of prospects. That post sounded to me like picking out a steak at the meat market, not hunting.

On the other hand, I've got zero problems with hunting predators. The "natural" ecosystem is anything but natural at this point and game is managed for our enjoyment. So let the wolves and the bears take their chances along with the elk and the deer.

The average elk hunter success rate, before wolves, in Idaho was 16%. That counts the "easy" late cow hunts and limited entry late rut hunts.

If hunting elk in Idaho is easy, I'd hate to see a "tough" hunt. JMO, Dutch.

Fair enough. However, success rates are also a product of quite a few factors, one of which is certainly elk populations. As this study (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14502423) points out, there are quite a few others and models haven't yet been developed to accurately identify which of those factors are most important. I think it is also true that elk population estimation by individuals don't really speak to statewide herd numbers. If someone doesn't see elk in an area where they have traditionally been seen, the natural conclusion is that elk numbers are down. However, that might not be true for the statewide herd as a whole. So, one has to adapt by maybe hunting different areas or perhaps doping out what new elk behaviors might be surfacing in the presence of predators. That's hunting, after all.

Here in my part of the world (northeastern mountains) (well, we call 'em mountains, anyway...) whitetail deer success rates are about the same. Not a lot of deer up here. Lots of guys will go a few years before seeing a shootable deer. Coyotes are also moving in, decreasing deer numbers even further, so we are in the same boat you are.

Coyotes, thankfully, have a season. My hope for you guys is that you get a season on what's taking your populations down as well.

After all is said and done, the population dynamics involved are terribly, terribly complex. You have very significant first order impacts, including calf predation by both bears and wolves.

Then you have second order effects, including displacement of other predators (including coyotes, cougars and black bears). The interesting one, I think, will be to see how the predation pressure will influence (is influencing) the ability of elk to outcompete mule deer for forage. Another really interesting one will be the influence on the ability of the white tail deer to hang on to it's inroads into mule deer country. Each species has a completely different predator avoidance strategy. Personally, I'm betting (rooting?) for the mulie.

Third order effects, such as improved range and riparian area condition because of reduced concentration of ungulates are even more difficult to quantify, let alone predict.

The point of all this rambling is of course that the pretentiousness of the politico's and the July "LLBean hiking crowd" who "predict" this or that is absurd. Folks on the ground barely can keep up with what is going on, let alone the DC know-it-alls.

Let the States manage the wildlife, like they are supposed to, and they'll do fine. JMO, Dutch.

Dutch,

You didn't mention the effects of the thousands of acres of former big game winter range that is now being filled with houses.

Don't get me started..... FWIW, Dutch.