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What do you all think of this? Stopping power is a colloquial term used to describe the ability of a weapon to stop the actions of an individual through a penetrating ballistic injury. This term is not a euphemism for lethality; it refers only to a weapon's ability to incapacitate quickly, regardless of whether death ultimately results. Some theories of stopping power involve concepts such as "energy transfer" and "hydrostatic shock", although there is disagreement regarding the importance of these effects. Obviously, stopping power is related to the physical properties of the bullet and the effects it has on its target, but the issue is complicated and not easily studied. Critics contend that the importance of "one-shot stop" statistics is overstated, pointing out that most gun encounters do not involve a "shoot once and see how the target reacts" situation. Most ballistic and forensic experts claim that "stopping power" does not exist, especially with handgun bullets. Stopping is caused not by the force of the bullet, but by the damaging effects of the bullet which are typically a loss of blood, and with it, blood pressure. More immediate effects can result when a bullet damages the central nervous system such as the spine or brain. In response to addressing stopping power issues, the Mozambique Drill was developed, to maximize the likelihood of a quick incapacitation of an attacker. History The concept of "stopping power" appeared in the late 19th Century when colonial troops (American in the Philippines, British in New Zealand) engaging in close action with native tribesmen found that their pistols were not able to stop charging warriors. This led to larger caliber weapons being developed to stop opponents with a single round. (See Knockback) Dynamics of bullets A bullet will destroy or damage any tissues which it penetrates, creating a wound channel. It will also cause nearby tissue to stretch and expand as it passes through tissue. These two effects are typically referred to as permanent cavitation (the hole left by the bullet) and temporary cavitation (the tissue displaced as the bullet passed). The degree to which permanent and temporary cavitation occur is dependant on the weight, diameter, material, design and velocity of the bullet. This is because bullets crush tissue, and do not cut it. A bullet constructed with a half diameter ogive designed meplat and hard, solid copper alloy material will crush only the tissue directly in front of the bullet. This type of bullet (monolithic-solid rifle bullet) is conducive to cause more temporary cavitation as the tissue flows around the bullet, causing a deep and narrow wound channel. A bullet constructed with a two diameter, hollow point ogive designed meplat and low antimony lead core with a thin gilding metal jacket material will crush tissue in front and to the sides as the bullet expands. Due to the energy expended in bullet expansion, velocity is lost more quickly. This type of bullet (hollow-point hand gun bullet) is conducive to causing more permanent cavitation as the tissue is crushed and accelerated into other tissues by the bullet, causing a shorter and more voluminous wound channel. Bullets are constructed to behave in different ways, depending on the intended target. Different bullets are constructed variously to: not expand upon impact, expand upon impact at high velocity, expand upon impact, expand across a broad range of velocities, expand upon impact at low velocity, fragment upon impact, or disintegrate upon impact. To control the expansion of a bullet, meplat design and materials are engineered. The meplat designs are: flat; round to pointed depending on the ogive; hollow pointed which can be large in diameter and shallow or narrow in diameter and deep and truncated which is a long narrow punched hole in the end of a monolithic-solid type bullet. The materials used to make bullets are: pure lead; alloyed lead for hardness; gilding metal jackets which is a copper alloy of nickel and zinc to promote higher velocities; pure copper; copper alloy of bronze and tungsten steel alloy inserts to prompt weight. Some bullets are constructed by bonding the lead core to the jack to promote higher weight retention upon impact, causing a larger and deeper wound channel. Some bullets have a web in the center of the bullet to limit the expansion of the bullet while promoting penetration. Some bullets have dual cores to promote penetration. Bullets that might be considered to have stopping power for dangerous large game animals are usually 11.63 mm (.458 caliber) and larger, including 12-gauge shotgun slugs. These bullets are monolithic-solids; full metal jacketed and tungsten steel insert. They are constructed to hold up during close range, high velocity impacts. These bullets are expected to impact and penetrate, and transfer energy to the surrounding tissues and vital organs through the entire length of a game animal’s body if need be. Bullets with sufficient stopping power for humans are generally large caliber, 9.07 mm (.357 caliber) handgun bullets of hollow point design. Pre-fragmented bullets such as Glaser Safety Slugs and Magsafe ammunition are designed to fragment into birdshot on impact with the target. This fragmentation is intended to create more trauma to the target, and also to reduce collateral damage caused from ricocheting or over-penetrating of the target and the surrounding environments such as walls. Physical effects Permanent and temporary cavitation cause very different biological effects. The effects of a permanent cavity are fairly obvious. A hole through the heart will cause loss of pumping efficiency, loss of blood, and eventual cardiac arrest. A hole through the brain can cause instant unconsciousness and will likely kill the recipient. A hole through an arm or leg which hits only muscle, however, will cause a great deal of pain but is unlikely to be fatal, unless one of the large blood vessels (femoral or brachial arteries, for example) is also severed in the process. The effects of temporary cavitation are less well understood, due to a lack of a test material identical to living tissue. Studies on the effects of bullets typically are based on experiments using ballistic gelatin, in which temporary cavitation causes radial tears where the gelatin was stretched. Although such tears are visually engaging, some animal tissues, (other than bone or liver) are more elastic than gelatin[citation needed]. In most cases, temporary cavitation is unlikely to cause anything more than a slight bruise. Some speculation states that nerve bundles can be damaged by temporary cavitation, creating a stunning effect, but this has not been confirmed. One exception to this is when a very powerful temporary cavity intersects with the spine. In this case, the resulting blunt trauma can slam the vertebrae together hard enough to either sever the spinal cord, or damage it enough to knock out, stun, or paralyze the target. For instance, in the shootout between eight FBI agents and two bank robbers on April 11, 1986 in Miami, Florida, (see FBI Miami shootout, 1986) Special Agent Gordon McNeill was struck in the neck by a high-velocity .223 bullet fired by Michael Platt. While the bullet did not directly contact the spine, and the wound incurred was not ultimately fatal, the temporary cavitation was sufficient to render SA McNeill paralyzed for several hours. Temporary cavitation can also cause the tearing of tissues if a very large amount of force is involved. The tensile strength of muscle ranges roughly from 1 to 4 MPa (145 to 580 lbf/in²), and minimal damage will result if the pressure exerted by the temporary cavitation is below this. Gelatin and other less elastic media have much lower tensile strengths, thus they exhibit more damage after being struck with the same amount of force. At typical handgun velocities, bullets will create temporary cavities with much less than 1 MPa of pressure, and thus are incapable of causing damage to elastic tissues which they do not directly contact. High velocity fragmentation can also increase the effect of temporary cavitation. The fragments sheared from the bullet cause many small permanent cavities around the main entry point. The main mass of the bullet can then cause a truly massive amount of tearing as the perforated tissue is stretched. Whether a person or animal will be incapacitated (i.e. 'stopped') when shot depends on a large number of factors including physical, physiological, and psychological effects. Neurological effects The only way to completely incapacitate a person or other animal is to damage or disrupt their central nervous system (CNS) to the point of becoming paralyzed, losing consciousness, or dying. Bullets can achieve this directly or indirectly. If a bullet causes sufficient damage to the brain or spinal cord, immediate loss of consciousness or paralysis, respectively, can result. However, these targets are relatively small and mobile, making them extremely difficult to hit even under optimal circumstances. Bullets can indirectly disrupt the CNS by damaging the cardiovascular system so that it can no longer provide enough oxygen to the brain to sustain consciousness. This can be the result of bleeding from a perforation of a large blood vessel or blood-bearing organ, or the result of damage to the lungs or airway. If blood flow is completely cut off from the brain, a human still has enough oxygenated blood in their brain for 10 seconds of willful action, though with rapidly decreasing effectiveness as the victim begins to lose consciousness. Unless a bullet directly damages or disrupts the central nervous system, a person or animal will not be instantly and completely incapacitated by physiological damage. However, bullets can cause other disabling injuries that prevent specific actions (a person shot in the femur cannot walk) and the physiologic pain response from severe injuries will temporarily disable most individuals. A number of papers in the peer-reviewed journals suggest ballistic pressure wave effects on wounding and incapacitation, including remote neural effects. [1][2][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] These papers are mainly concerned with velocities of rifle bullets, but the energy transfer and pressure waves produced are within the regime of pistol bullets Recent work by Courtney and Courtney provides compelling support for the role of a ballistic pressure wave in creating remote neural effects leading to incapacitation and injury.[9][10][11][12] [13] This work builds upon the earlier works of Suneson et al. where the researchers implanted high-speed pressure transducers into the brain of pigs and demonstrated that a significant pressure wave reaches the brain of pigs shot in the thigh.[14][1] These scientists observed neural damage in the brain caused by the distant effects of the ballistic pressure wave originating in the thigh. The results of Suneson et al. were confirmed and expanded upon by a later experiment in dogs[2] which "confirmed that distant effect exists in the central nervous system after a high-energy missile impact to an extremity. A high-frequency oscillating pressure wave with large amplitude and short duration was found in the brain after the extremity impact of a high-energy missile . . ." Wang et al. observed significant damage in both the hypothalamus and hippocampus regions of the brain due to remote effects of the ballistic pressure wave. Psychological effects Emotional shock, terror, or surprise can cause a person to faint, surrender, or flee when shot or shot at. Emotional fainting is the likely reason for most "one-shot stops", and not an intrinsic effectiveness quality of any firearm or bullet; there are many documented instances where suspects have instantly dropped unconscious when the bullet only hit an extremity, or even completely missed. Additionally, the muzzle blast and flash from many firearms are substantial and can cause disorientation, dazzling, and stunning effects; flashbangs (stun grenades) and other less-lethal "distraction devices" rely exclusively on these effects. Pain is another psychological factor, and can be enough to dissuade a person from continuing their actions. Temporary cavitation can emphasize the impact of a bullet, since the resulting tissue compression is identical to simple blunt force trauma. It's easier for someone to feel when they been shot if there is considerable temporary cavitation, and this can contribute to either psychological factor of incapacitation. However, if a person is sufficiently enraged, determined, or intoxicated they can simply shrug off the psychological effects of being shot; therefore, such effects are not as reliable as physiological effects at stopping people. Animals will not faint or surrender if injured, though they may become frightened by the loud noise and pain of being shot, so psychological mechanisms are generally less effective against non-humans. Industry penetration requirements According to Dr. Martin Fackler and the IWBA, between 12.5 and 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) of penetration in calibrated tissue simulant is optimal performance for a bullet which is meant to be used defensively, against a human adversary. They also believe that penetration is one of the most important factors when choosing a bullet (and that the number one factor is shot placement); if the bullet penetrates less than their guidelines, it is inadequate, and if it penetrates more, it is still satisfactory though not optimal. The FBI's penetration requirement is very similar at 12 to 18 inches (305 to 457 mm). A penetration depth of 12.5 to 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) may seem excessive, but a bullet sheds velocity--and crushes a narrower hole--as it penetrates deeper, while losing velocity, so the bullet might be crushing a very small amount of tissue (simulating an "ice pick" injury) during its last two or three inches of travel, giving only between 9.5 and 12 inches of effective wide-area penetration. Also, skin is elastic and tough enough that it can cause a bullet to be retained in the body, even if the bullet had a relatively high velocity when it hit the skin. About 250 ft/s (76 m/s) velocity is required for an expanded hollowpoint bullet to puncture skin 50% of the time.[citation needed] The IWBA's and FBI's penetration guidelines are to ensure that the bullet can reach a vital structure from most angles, while retaining enough velocity to generate a large diameter hole through tissue. Overpenetration Overpenetration is often emphasized by those that prefer shallow-penetrating "rapid energy transfer" bullets. Tests have shown that human skin, on the entry side, can resist penetration as much as 2" (5 cm) of muscle, and skin on the exit side can be the equivalent of up to 4 in (10 cm). A bullet would need to penetrate greater than approximately 15 inches (38 cm) of tissue simulant to have a chance to completely perforate a 9" (23 cm) thick torso, and would need to penetrate more than 17 inches (43 cm) to actually pose a serious threat to people downrange. Even if the bullet does completely penetrate a person, it will have a very reduced velocity and probably will no longer be ballistically stable. Missing the intended target altogether, hence leaving a full velocity bullet to harm whatever is in its path, is a much greater threat. A hit on a less dense peripheral body area, such as a limb, does present a more serious risk of overpenetration however. Penetration of walls and other cover is also a consideration for police and urban use. According to NYPD SOP-9 (Standard Operating Procedure #9) data, in the year 2000, only 9% of shots fired by officers engaged in gunfights actually hit perpetrators at which they were fired. In the same year, there were a total of 129 "shooting incidents" (including non-gunfights, such as officers firing at aggressive dogs, unarmed or fleeing perpetrators, etc.), 471 total shots fired by officers, 367 shots fired at perpetrators, and 58 total hits on perpetrators by police. So, when non-gunfight shooting data is added, the rate at which police hit what they aim at in real life situations is typically only 15.8%. A study done by the FBI found that the .223 Remington from a rifle had a smaller chance of over-penetration than the 9 mm Luger handgun round.[15] Other hypotheses of stopping power These hypotheses are a matter of some debate [9] among scientists in the field: Hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock is a theory of terminal ballistics that wounding effects are created by a shock wave in the tissues of the target. Evidence of such shock can be seen in ultra-high-speed images of supersonic bullets passing through various objects such as fruit; the fruit explodes due to the shock waves caused by the bullet passing through at high speed. This theory however is only applicable to high-speed ammunition such as rifle bullets; handgun ammunition provides insufficient speed and energy to duplicate these effects. "Hydra-Shock" handgun ammunition is therefore technically a misnomer; a bullet so named achieves its wounding capacity through expansion, ensuring maximum energy transfer and a larger permanent cavity than a nonexpanding bullet. Energy transfer The energy transfer hypotheses states that the more energy that is transferred to the target, the greater the damage that is caused. This theory is frequently referred to by Kennedy assassination theories, who cite the Zapruder film, which shows Kennedy's head recoiling backwards from a shot, as evidence that therefore, that shot must have been fired from in front of the limousine rather than from behind, where Lee Harvey Oswald was firing from the Texas School Book Depository, implying a second assassin. However, it has been repeatedly demonstrated, most recently to a large television audience by Penn and Teller on May 9, 2005 on their Showtime network program, Bullshit!, that when a simplified physical model of a brain inside a skull, composed of a melon wrapped with strapping tape, is shot in a similar fashion, the melon recoils backwards, towards the gun; evidence that the actual transfer of energy from a bullet passing through a complex object is much more complex than simple mathematical models based on oversimplified physical assumptions can predict, a priori. However, it remains a general physical principle, that when a volume of energy is transferred from one medium to another, the greater the volume of energy, the greater the destructive potential. In ballistics, energy is a function of velocity and mass. Generally speaking, bullets which impact a target with greater energy cause greater damage. A bullet with too little energy might not penetrate the target - although in the case of a living target they may suffer blunt force trauma, possibly resulting in internal injury solely through the force of the impact. Overpenetration is detrimental to stopping power with regards to energy since a bullet that passes through the target has not completely shed all of its stored energy. However, the increased tissue damage as well as the creation of an exit wound (and increased blood loss) resulting from a bullet passing through a person also affect whether the target is likely to be incapacitated. Bullets that pass out of the body may still injure people nearby. Rifles commonly propel bullets to speeds of at at least 2-3 times the velocity of the most powerful pistols. Such bullets have more kinetic energy (kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the speed). Bullets not intended to expand such as the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO, M855 Ball Round, may cause much more tissue damage as a result, than of expansion or fragmentation of a bullet at handgun velocities. As discussed above, there are many factors that affect "stopping power." Energy transfer is undeniably related to destructive potential; however, the importance of energy transfer in determining the stopping power of bullets (when compared to other factors like location of the wound and bullet size) is not a topic of agreement. It is a general principal of physics that the force between the bullet and tissue is equal to the bullet's local rate of energy loss, dE/dx (the first derivative of the bullets kinetic energy with respect to position). The ballistic pressure wave is proportional to this retarding force (Courtney and Courtney), and this retarding force is also the origin of both temporary cavitation and prompt damage (CE Peters). Knockback The idea of "knockback" is a subset or simplification of energy transfer theory, and states that a bullet of sufficient caliber at sufficient speed which transfers all its energy to a subject has enough force, by sheer momentum of the bullet, to stop forward momentum of an attacker and knock them backwards or downwards. The idea was first widely expounded in ballistics discussions during American involvement in Philippine insurrections and, simultaneously, in British involvement in the Caribbean, when front-line reports stated that the .38 caliber revolvers carried by U.S. and British soldiers were incapable of bringing down a charging warrior. Thus, in the early 1900s, the U.S. adopted the .45ACP cartridge in what was to become the M1911A pistol and the British adopted the .455 Webley caliber cartridge in the Webley Revolver. The larger cartridges were chosen largely due to the Big Hole Theory (a larger hole does more damage), but the common interpretation was that these were changes from a light, deeply-penetrating bullet to a larger, heavier "manstopper" bullet. Though popularized in television and movies, and commonly referred to as "true stopping power" by novice or uneducated proponents of large powerful calibers such as .44 Magnum, the effect of knockback from a handgun and indeed most personal weapons is largely a myth. Because of Newton's Third Law, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction", a handgun bullet propelled with sufficient force to arrest forward momentum or impart backward momentum in a human-sized target mass would impart an equal force to the shooter, knocking both the shooter AND target to the ground. The force of the so-called "manstopper" .45ACP bullet is, in reality, comparable to the force imparted by a 1kg (2.2 pound) mass dropped from a height of 11.4 feet onto a surface.[16] Such a force is simply incapable of arresting a running target's forward momentum. In addition, bullets are designed to penetrate instead of strike a blunt force blow, because, in penetrating, more severe tissue damage is done. A bullet with sufficient energy to knock down an assailant, such as a high-speed rifle bullet, would be more likely to instead pass straight through, while not transferring the full energy (in fact only a very small percentage of the full energy) of the bullet to the victim. The "knockback" effect is however commonly "seen" in real-life shootings, and can be explained by physiological and psychological means. Humans encountering a physical hit, be it a punch or a bullet, are conditioned to absorb the blow by moving in the same direction as the force. The physical effect against a non-penetrating weapon is to reduce the force felt by the blow, and in addition, retreating from an attack increases the distance such an attack must cover, which in the case of non-projectile weapons such as fists or a knife, places the target out of range of further attack. In addition, there is thought that Western civilization movies may have conditioned humans watching them to recoil, buckle, or fall backward when hit by a bullet, because that is the action taken by characters they have "seen" on TV or movies react when shot. Although knockback is not possible with a handgun bullet, it can be an actual effect occurring in reaction to being hit by a massive slug, such as a rubber bullet or sandbag fired from a shotgun. The dynamics of a slug round are quite different than penetrating bullets; the projectile is here designed NOT to penetrate but instead to strike a hard, blunt force blow, and as the power of a shotgun cartridge is greater than practically any production handgun cartridge, the force imparted is comparable to a hard punch and is capable, by sheer physics, of doubling up, hence knocking down, someone. One-shot stop This hypothesis, promoted by Evan P. Marshall, is based solely on statistics, intended to be used as a unit of measurement and not as a tactical philosophy, as mistakenly believed by some. It considers the history of shooting incidents for a given factory ammunition load, and compiles the percentage of "one-shot-stops" achieved with each specific ammunition load. That percentage is then intended to be used with other information to help predict the effectiveness of that load getting a "one-shot-stop." For example, if an ammunition load is used in 10 torso shootings, incapacitating all but two with one shot, the "one-shot-stop" percentage for the total sample would be 80%. Some argue that this hypothesis ignores any inherent selection bias. For example, high-velocity 9 mm hollow point rounds appear to have the highest percentage of one-shot stops. Rather than identifying this as an inherent property of the firearm/bullet combination, the situations where these have occurred need to be considered. The 9 mm has been the predominantly-used caliber of many police departments, so many of these one-shot-stops were probably made by well-trained police officers, where accurate placement would be a contributory factor. However, Marshall's database of "one-shot-stops" does include shootings from law enforcement agencies, private citizens, and criminals alike. Critics of this theory point out that bullet placement is a very significant factor, but is only generally used in such one-shot-stop calculations, covering shots to the torso. Some CCW holders in the United States have elected since 2006 to switch from carrying hollow-point bullets and especially 10 mm caliber weapons with perceived higher one-shot stopping power to instead favor carrying smaller caliber weapons after the conviction of retired school teacher Harold Fish in Arizona for second degree murder during a self-defense shooting. His conviction for killing a homeless man with a history of mental instability who attacked him while hiking on a remote trail was obtained through a jury trial by stressing Fish overreacted through choosing to use the increased stopping power of 10 mm hollow point bullets. State law in Arizona has subsequently been changed, such that the state now has the burden to prove that a self defense shooting was not in self defense, whereas the burden previously before the Fish incident was that the shooter on trial had to prove that the shooting was in fact done in self defense. Meanwhile, many CCW holders have elected to switch to carrying handguns loaded with FMJ bullets in calibers smaller than 10 mm. A choice often advocated for selecting the correct stopping power in CCW training classes is to select to use the exact same type of bullets (FMJ or hollow point), in the exact same caliber that are used by the local police, to avoid being accused of overreacting during any self defense post-incident trial.[17][18] Big Hole School This school of thought says that the bigger the hole in the target the higher the rate of bleed-out and thus the higher the rate of the "magical" one shot kill. In this theory, the bullet does not pass entirely through the body so that it incorporates the energy transfer and the overpenetration ideals. The people that like this theory cite the .40 S&W round to be the best bet, arguing that it has a better ballistic profile than the .45, with more stopping power than a 9x19mm Parabellum. The theory centers on the "permanent cavitation" element of a handgun wound; a big hole damages more tissue. It is therefore valid to a point, but penetration is also important, as a large bullet that doesn't penetrate will be less likely to strike vital blood vessels and blood-carrying organs such as the heart and liver, while a smaller bullet that penetrates deep enough to strike these organs or vessels will cause faster bleed-out through a smaller hole. The ideal may therefore be a combination; a large bullet that penetrates deeply, which can be achieved with a larger, slower non-expanding bullet, or a smaller, faster expanding bullet such as a hollow point. Other Contributing Factors As it has been touched on previously, drug and/or alcohol levels within the body, body mass index, mental illness, motivation levels, body part strike (i.e. "armpit hold") all these things and more contribute to the concept of what round will possess true stopping power during which situation. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | ||
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Thanks Redhawk. Not that any of the "experts" will bother to read that, but good post never the less. I'm gratified that it lists the subjects as "theories", since neither side could ever prove their OPINIONS. If you want to see the effects of "hydrostatic shock" on quarry, you could always watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQhjaCgAS80 Frame #151 RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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Looks like the Wiki article, references listed at the bottom of the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power | |||
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I did not bother to read the article since it is a product of Wikipedia, the WORST and most INACCURATE source for anything you might want to know, particularly for items and events of historical significance. I've seen too many upper-division college kids try and pass off wiki work as part of their own. You can guess as to what grade they may receive... Who knows...this article may be different. But considering the source, I just didn't deem it worthy of reading. Sorry... Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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See Redhawk, what did I tell you. The Wikipedia "experts" could never convince our resident "experts" of anything, even if THEY'D WRITTEN IT. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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First of, there is ZERO correlation between Killing animals and humans. Hopefully I'll never be involved in another shooting where an "Individual"(aka person) is involved, so the article has no interest to me. | |||
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If you took the time to read it and see a lot of the sources from which the information was received, you may have a different opinion. But probably seeing how it may not come from one of the resident experts on this site, you may just discredit it, because you yourself are a self proclaimed expert. References ^ a b Göransson AM, Ingvar DH, Kutyna F: Remote Cerebral Effects on EEG in High-Energy Missile Trauma. The Journal of Trauma. 28(1 Supplement):S204-S205; January 1988. ^ a b c [SHL89] Suneson A, Hansson HA, Lycke E: Pressure Wave Injuries to Rat Dorsal Cell Ganglion Root Cells in Culture Caused by High Energy Missiles, The Journal of Trauma. 29(1):10-18; 1989. ^ Suneson A, Hansson HA, Seeman T: Central and Peripheral Nervous Damage Following High-Energy Missile Wounds in the Thigh. The Journal of Trauma. 28(1 Supplement):S197-S203; January 1988. ^ Suneson A, Hansson HA, Seeman T: Pressure Wave Injuries to the Nervous System Caused by High Energy Missile Extremity Impact: Part I. Local and Distant Effects on the Peripheral Nervous System. A Light and Electron Microscopic Study on Pigs. The Journal of Trauma. 30(3):281-294; 1990. ^ Suneson A, Hansson HA, Seeman T: Pressure Wave Injuries to the Nervous System Caused by High Energy Missile extremity Impact: Part II. Distant Effects on the Central Nervous System. A Light and Electron Microscopic Study on Pigs. The Journal of Trauma. 30(3):295-306; 1990. ^ Tikka S, Cederberg A, Rokkanen P: Remote effects of pressure waves in missile trauma: the intra-abdominal pressure changes in anaesthetized pigs wounded in one thigh. Acta Chir. Scand. Suppl. 508: 167-173, 1982. ^ Wehner HD, Sellier K: Compound action potentials in the peripheral nerve induced by shockwaves. Acta Chir. Scand. Suppl. 508: 179, 1982. ^ Wang Q, Wang Z, Zhu P, Jiang J: Alterations of the Myelin Basic Protein and Ultrastructure in the Limbic System and the Early Stage of Trauma-Related Stress Disorder in Dogs. The Journal of Trauma. 56(3):604-610; 2004. ^ a b Courtney M, Courtney A: Review of criticisms of ballistic pressure wave experiments, the Strasbourg goat tests, and the Marshall and Sanow data. http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf accessed 5/29/2007. ^ Courtney M, Courtney A: Ballistic pressure wave contributions to rapid incapacitation in the Strasbourg goat tests. http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701267.pdf accessed 5/29/2007. ^ Courtney M, Courtney A: Relative incapacitation contributions of pressure wave and wound channel in the Marshall and Sanow data set. http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701266.pdf accessed 5/29/2007. ^ Courtney M, Courtney A: A method for testing handgun bullets in deer. http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf accessed 5/29/2007. ^ Courtney A, Courtney M: Links between traumatic brain injury and ballistic pressure waves originating in the thoracic cavity and extremities. Brain Injury 21(7): 657-662, 2007. Pre-print: http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/tbipwave.pdf ^ Suneson A, Hansson HA, Seeman T: Pressure Wave Injuries to the Nervous System Caused by High Energy Missile Extremity Impact: Part I. Local and Distant Effects on the Peripheral Nervous System. A Light and Electron Microscopic Study on Pigs. The Journal of Trauma. 30(3):281-294; 1990. ^ ".223 For CQB" by R.K. Taubert, Reprinted from "Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement" ^ FBI Firearms Training: Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, pg 9 ^ Corbett, Peter. "Show to air segment on hiker's shooting", The Arizona Republic, 2006-11-07. Retrieved on 2007-09-25. ^ Maresh, Michael. "Governor vetoes hope for Harold Fish", Payson Roundup, 2007-03-06. Retrieved on 2007-09-25. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Looks like the "Skipper and his little buddie Gilligan" are at it again. Cut and paste from Wikipedia, how insightful..... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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So according to you, bullets react different in humans than animals? So just for comparison only, this could not be used? Wouldn't the bullets react the same in animals as in humans? I am not trying to make this an animal/human post, but more for the way a bullet works. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Let me see, you have cut and pasted on other threads, but that is OK because you did it. Now you have followed George and myself to different threads and add nothing of value to any of them. Now you come here doing the same thing. You are nothing but a troll. Ever time someone posts something you agree with, you stick your nose up there back side saying, way to go, good post. Wipe the brown off your nose and find another play ground to play in. You are a pathetic piece of crap. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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there is no barometer for determining what will stop anyone or thing. every entity is different. what may stop you may piss me off. | |||
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I cut & pasted an article from the FBI's web site and also posted the url.. Hell you didn't even post the url and on Wickipeda who knows what qualification the Author may or may not have... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Even this piece refers to hydrostatic shock as a theory and not dogma. Isn't this precisely what we were arguing about elsewhere with regards to the killing effects of handguns versus rifles? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Now don't just pick out the parts you agree with, there are other theories there. And neither side could ever prove their "theories" So who is right? If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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iv got a theory... 99.9% of people who talk about stopping power think it exist. the rest know that the only thing that stops anything or anyone is a central nervous system disruption. and that, my friends, is hard to arrange. | |||
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I agree with you. No argument there. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Whitworth, I honestly expected better from you. In physics there are "theories" and "laws", no "dogmas". There's nothing "religious" about this post. A "theory" is a notion that is suspected to be true but never successfully reproduced in laboratory conditions. A "law", conversely, actually has been reproduced with always the same results. It seems that both sides of this issue (except the comments from the Mental Midget in the Peanut Gallery) tend to be "conjecture" and "opinion" depending on who gives it and who agrees with it. KStephens, did you watch the YouTube video? Now there's real stopping power that seem to be "arranged" quite well. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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quote: Originally posted by Outdoor Writer: quote: It would seem that if there were even a shred of evidence supporting the Major's contentions, every terrorist group, third world country, despotic regime would be carrying the M-16 and its derivatives. We both know what their weapon of choice actually is though. Not sure if you read a different article than the one I posted, but...the inference I got from the major was that he thought the M-16 and it's pipsqueak round sucked for killing the enemy. Hell, it had a hard time doing the same to a damn goat. He -- and the DOD -- certainly didn't seem to think much of the tales about decapitations and blowing limbs off, as in "The above 'field—reports' are incredulous," i.e. unbelievable. -TONY george, was reading that imaginary post in his mind...The one no else can see... ________________________________________________ Yea, we are well awrae of your reading and comprehension skills....  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Redhawk1 wrote:
Get a life and get real...and don't get so riled lest your blood pressure takes an unhealthy rise. I have never claimed to be an "expert." I challenge you to show me where this has occurred. When I write something, I have facts and experience to substantiate anything I may state. And that's why you'll never see me quote anything from the wiki files. If wiki is gospel to you, then so be it. Quote it, cut and paste it and recite it all you want. But don't get so offended just because others -- particular those in the professional community who can find error upon error within that site -- find wiki to be, for the most part, a joke. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Come on George -- these discussions are very much religious in scope in that we often inject a lot of emotion when speaking of our "beliefs".  So, I find dogma to be a perfectly appropriate term........."Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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No it is all just "theories". I don't believe everything I read, I just cut and pasted for others to read. No different that what others have done on this site on different threads. No one found issue with them? I guess it is selective posters you seem to take issue with. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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I get enjoyment from your posts. Good to laugh once in awhile... If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Get a life and get real...and don't get so riled lest your blood pressure takes an unhealthy rise. I have never claimed to be an "expert." I challenge you to show me where this has occurred. When I write something, I have facts and experience to substantiate anything I may state. And that's why you'll never see me quote anything from the wiki files. If wiki is gospel to you, then so be it. Quote it, cut and paste it and recite it all you want. But don't get so offended just because others -- particular those in the professional community who can find error upon error within that site -- find wiki to be, for the most part, a joke.[/QUOTE] You should see the PM's from these 2 jokers, absolutely priceless.... The entertainment value from posters (posting on a world wide web site) that get so upset when thier VIEWS are not universialy accepted by others is absolutely PRICELESS _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp475, lets keep it in the PM's, no need to subject others to your childishness. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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LOL Whitworth. Thinking about it, you're absolutely right. Can you imagine the bloodletting here if we really DID talk about religion and politics. Perish the thought. JWP, why don't you cut and paste those PM's so everyone can see them. And make sure you post WHO initiated the PM and what HE said in his first PM. You're just like a baby magpie. You're all ass and mouth and all you do is squawk and crap. You only shoot game farm animals and cut and paste someone else's posts so you can chirp like a constipated hummingbird. Why don't you just shut up and go change your Depends. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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george roof wrote:
I have no idea what went on between george and jwp, but then I don't have to -- nor do I care to. That post speaks volumes about the character and maturity level of the individual (george roof). One need not conduct even the crudest of psychoanalytical profiles to ascertain why many of his posts are rendundancies of wreckless tone while adding little if any value to the discussion at hand. Alas, the post in question is also perfect testimony as to why the board maintains the much-needed ignore feature...  Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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There's no need to post any PM's. Hell people can just read your public post and get the jest of them.... Would you like to add any thing else? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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i can promise you, if the little brown people that tote AK's could afford M-16 or if the 11 year olds weapons builders could bang them out of licence plates in tents they would love to have one. The reason they "prefer" AK's has nothing to do w/ its stopping capability and more to do w/ the fact that one can be had for the price of a live chicken. the other reason is that they can be operated by a 9 year old Liberian high on khat. hell, a carton of Newports to trade in Somalia can supply a small army w/ rifles. you fancy these dolts as your experts?  | |||
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looks like a long way of saying use the right bullet in the right caliber and chambering to do the job you are asking it to do. | |||
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When you two write things like this,
No one is going to take you seriously. | |||
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Hit the garbuff in the blue coat and with the 1911,with a .50 cal, 750 grain, just below the chin, and the rest will scatter like a bunch of black jack rabbits! | |||
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KStephens, that's a very silly assertion. If the M16 was half as good as the DoD thinks it is, the Germans, Israelis, Swedes, Aussies and English would be using them as well. Have you noticed that only the US believes in them? Bobby, you and Scott are obviously kissing buddies with jwp and had you any idea of the crap he'd written both of us,maybe you'd shut up as well. Neither of us started the insulting game with him. We both stated our opinions and this little chihauhau started nipping at our heels. He's the one who started the insults. If you can only resort to adjectives like "childish", it means you've been thrown off the playground already. Perhaps your big brave little mental midget friend, jwp, would consider doing just what I asked him and post those pm's he sent both of us. He's only a maggot hiding behind a keyboard and taking cheap shots off forum. If you want to pass judgement on someone, you need look no farther than this infantile punk who continues to take cheap shots from an alley. If either of you have any character or credibility, you chain that little mongrel up instead of perpetuating his insults. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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Priceless.... _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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And when you write things like this,
You lose any shred of credibility or respect anyone who reads that might of had for you. Seriously now, two weeks from now come back and read what you wrote and ask yourself what reasonable person wouldn't roll their eyes and dismiss anything you had to say. | |||
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Not to worry Scott, I wouldn't invite you to breakfast with me anyway. Someone like you who doesn't think their own character is worth defending isn't someone I'd like to have around me anyway. BTW, I notice your chihauhau followed you. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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I believe that is from the Video game "Call Of Duty" _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Yeah, it's a video game all right. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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George and Red,... off to the ignore list. | |||
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your ignorance is showing. you obviously need to turn off Modern Weapons. There are more than 80 countries that use the M-16 platform. Israel is one of them. "The M16/M4 system is in use by 15 NATO countries and more than 80 countries world wide. Together, the U.S. and Canada have produced more than 8,000,000 units with approximately 90% still in operation. In addition to the United States of America (the country of origin), users of the M16 rifle and its variants have included and are: Afghanistan (as of 4 December 2007) Argentina Australia Bahamas Bangladesh Bahrain Barbados Belize Bolivia Botswana Bosnia and Herzegovina Brazil Brunei Cambodia Cameroon Canada Chile Colombia Costa Rica Denmark Dominican Republic Egypt Estonia El Salvador Fiji France Ghana Greece Grenada Haiti Honduras Hungary India (M16A2, special forces only) Indonesia Iraq Ireland Israel Italy (M4, special forces only) Japan Jordan Jamaica Kuwait Latvia Lebanon Lesotho Liberia Liechtenstein Maldives Malaysia Mexico Morocco Nepal New Zealand Norway Laos Nigeria Netherlands Oman Pakistan Panama Philippines Poland (M4, special forces only) Portugal Qatar Saudi Arabia Singapore South Korea Sri Lanka Republic of China Rhodesia Thailand Timor-Leste Tunisia Turkey United Arab Emirates United Kingdom (special forces only) Uruguay Vietnam Venezuela Zaire | |||
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Hey Redhawk1, No they don't. alf is always trying to skew posts into Killing humans and also using battleship cannons and field artillery. The reason he does this is because he has no first-hand experience with the "difference". If you believe it all works the same, that is finewith me. But once you get enough Kills, you will then understand there is - NO valid Comparison - between shooting animals and humans. Posts about Killing humans have no place on a Hunting site. The thread should be deleted. "More Power to you!" - Briscoe Darling | |||
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