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me too. I am indifferent. I usually don't take part in voicing an opinion regarding what other hunters should or shouldn't do. Traditional bowhunters call compound hunters "not real bowhunters." A lot of bowhunters call the crossbow users, "bowhunter wannabees." Archery only hunters call anyone with a firearm a "killer, not a hunter" and make commments like, "you hunt with a gun? that ain't huntin." and on and on. The fact is people miss, and they miss with all kinds of equipment at all kinds of distances. I missed a deer at 20 yards one season, with a bow, because I pulled the shot. The day before, I never missed my 1.5" orange dot at the same distance after shooting for an hour. In Alberta on a bait and wait bear hunt, I begged the guide to roll the barrel at least 30-40 yards away. She wouldn't do it. Why? Because they have hunters miss and wound bears at 8 yards almost annually. Go figure. I just don't get into what others should and shouldn't do on their hunt, regardless of the fact we owe these animals a lot of respect even though we are there to kill them. I would opine that statistically speaking, there are more wounded game by us bowhunters every season compared to the few that take a 500+ yard poke at game with a high dollar custom rifle. If I am correct, then from an ethical standpoint, all bowhunters should quit. I don't see that happening. I know I won't ever stop. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Long Range shots can and are regularly made by hunters annually, but from my experience, Long Range shot are the exception and are only taken when there is no other alternative. Most hunters are going to do whatever they can to shorten the range and work within their limits. JMO. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I agree. BUT, I have seen some videos where hunters actually BACK away b/c they want to take a long shot!  Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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400 yards is at a distance where you begin to have a lot of bullet drop, and knowing what your rig does, and how far exactly that target is, is critical as you approach and exceed the 400 yard mark. Someone here can probably tell us exactly how much pretty quickly, but if your rifle is zeroed at 200 with 'typical calibers', say 308 through 300 WM, your bullet drop is going to be such that you must make a pretty significant adjustment to achieve a center hit. I.E. the drop with a 200 yard zero with a 300 WM at 300 yards is 6"-8" or so, and this would mean an adjustment of that much to achieve a center hit at 300 yards. At 400, the drop is more like 16" to 20", so you've got a lot more adjusting to do. Unless you are well practiced, or have an appropriate ranging reticle that you know is accurate, that becomes a good bit of adjustment, and can easily result in a miss. Having said that, I have a bunch of rifles, and know the holdover for them, and/or have ranging reticles where making a hit at 400 yards or even 500 is relatively straightforward. I can tell you MOST hunters don't. We have a group that has been making an annual hunt to Kansas for 7 years or so now, and the terrain is such that it is common to have long (400+) shots. All of our gang has been required by me and my main hunting partner to have laser rangefinders. All of the gang, except me and my main hunting partner have only one centerfire rifle, and they all have 270's. Not a coincidence, we relegated them to having them, and a couple of them already had them. I have printed up drop charts for all of them. The first year, when I handed out the drop charts, several of the guys were amazed. Some at how much the drop increased past 300, some at how little it was! The incidence of our gang taking long shots went down a bunch, based on their stories, after the 'pre-supervision' by me and the one other partner, and the shots they had taken on hunts before. The few that have been taken have been successful. I think this speaks to the 'be prepared' comments that have been made, but a chip shot it isn't. Spud, as to military sniper [team even] not being able to hit a target at 800 yards--well, I didn't see the show, and don't know the size of the target, but I have two friends that were military snipers, one US ARMY, one ARMY RANGER. They will hit their typical target with 100% success at 800 yards, and if you didn't, you don't get to be no sniper. I have actually seen a segment on Discovery Channel, where they took this actor, he always seems to play a military role, and notably was the guy who played the Drill Sergeant who got blown away in the latrine in the movie 'Full Metal Jacket', and with almost no instruction, was executing hits on a the sniper target at a huge distance, I actually think it was 800 yards, but was way out there at any rate. The spotting/rangoing scopes those snipers have are unreal accurate, and their rifles are damn accurate as well, the target they shoot is kind of a gong type, and they simply record HIT or MISS. Military snipers shooting at this kind of range will HIT all the bloody time. I would like to see the show you saw, but I can assure you that it is UNCOMMON for a military sniper team to miss their typical target at 800 yards/meters....again I state, I don't know what the size of the target was in the show you saw and maybe it was unusual, or these snipers--as Doc suggested, were new and not trained yet. Good shooting to all! | |||
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Well I seen the show and I really can’t believe you are even asking this question. First off the show had sniper teams running and doing a whole bunch of other obstacles than trying to shoot at targets without have the best rest that they could get but rather the rest the where told to use and they had a certain amount of time to do it in as they were competing with other teams. Not only that there was other gunfire going on when this was taking place like there would be in real combat. None of this takes place when I'm hunting | |||
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Oh no! It's true! Fellow told me the other day that the 140 grainer out of a 7 mm mag was "still rising" at 1500 yards and that his latest two deer kills had been "over 1800 yards." I didn't smell any alcohol on him and he actually kept a straight face while telling me these tall tales. Then...he shot a 4" group off the bench and shrugged it off with, "I just rebedded this ún." I wouldn't have rebedded a rifle that could kill deer over 1800 yards!   Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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LOL, just out of curiosity, I looked up the 140 gr. Remingon AccuTip boattail ballistics for a 7mm mag. IF it was zero'd at 250 yards, he'd have to raise the crosshairs only 29 inches at 500 yards! I don't even want to consider the holdover at 1,800+ yards!!!! BS indeed! | |||
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I actually went to a different range to shoot the next time I saw that guy there...just didn't want to hear his nonsense. Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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I agree with many of the posts about long range shooting not being for the average joe. It always makes me skeptical when a guy starts dropping even ranges on his long shooting. On the other hand, my father never ceases to amaze me with his shooting. He always enjoyed long range shooting and grew up in a different generation. Last year, at 70, he drew an elk tag and we hunted. I had him passing up giant bulls at 380-410 yards; he wanted to shoot, but I discouraged it. We had close encounters, but the vegetation was just too thick. We had bulls as close as 15 yards, but never a shot opportunity. The last day of the hunt we were loading our calves to send to auction and I told him to humor me and go on one last hike. Well we get to the top of a draw and across is standing a 6 point herd bull and its cows. I range them at 442 yards. He has a one-legged shooting stick. 70 year old guy, 2 shots, here are the results---- warning a little graphic. . . . . . . .  2 shots within 2 inches. First shot was 442 yards the second was 441, after the bull moved about 20 yards along the draw. One popped the heart, the other took both lungs. So while I do not condone long range shooting for everyone, I know what a rifle can do, especially in the well trained hands of a 70 year old man. | |||
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Snook Moore told me years ago "watchout for old F^%ts with old guns, they can shoot." ( left some descriptors out)  DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I've hit targets at well over 1,000 yards, but it was with an M2HB, a tripod and a T&E mechanism. It's fun, but it's not hunting. analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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It must have been. | |||
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Dugga, ain't that the truth. I watch young guys and 40 somethings buy the fanicest optics, biggest guns and best long-range systems. I am a full time taxidermist and I'll just say a lot of guys out there put new meaning in the phrase "wounding them to death". | |||
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Sounds interesting, but what is a M2HB and what is a T&E mechanism? | |||
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I spent an entire summer here in SW and Central Idaho with a set of Geovids hunting Rockchucks. I had built a 17lb rifle for a wildcat 25 caliber rifle. 110gr Fowler VLDs at 3900fps. The scope was a Premier Reticle/Leupold boosted to 18-42X with a set of windage lines 3moa left and right of the center line, and 1/8moa dots 3,6,and 9moa high, and 3,6,9,12moa below the crosshairs junction. I had Oehlers ballistic program and made a printout from 200 to 1250yds in 25yd increments. It had all the click values, so I could just crank up, down, left and right. By end of the season, I had made three first-shot, hit&kills in front of witnesses at a bit over 1000 yards. The longest was 1032. I put in a L-O-T of practice the far side of 600yds. Built a rack on the pickup so I could rest the rifle steady. It can be done, if you want it bad enough to build the specialized equipment and practice... Rich Buff Killer | |||
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Did you have your Wheatstone Bridge with you too?  | |||
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Glad you posted this! I was starting to think I was the only guy that can actually shoot long range around here! I wasn't going to admit it!LOL I shoot a 22 pound 338Edge that drives 300gr Smk's to 2850fps. I use a 5.5-22X Nightforce, an ACI cosign indicator, a Kestrel wind meter and weather station, A Swarovski range finder, and the Exbal trajectory system. In good conditions I can hold sub 3 inch groups at 500 yards. | |||
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A 400 yd shot with many out of the box rifles, good optics, rangefinder and a shooter who is willing to take the time to know his gun and load is very doable. Come on guys, cartridges from say the 06 on up, that's what they are are meant for. I don't move real fast, but if I have time to range the animal, refer to my drop chart and crank my scope, get in a good shooting position over my pack--better yet with my bipod--that deer or elk is about to meet its maker. I'm good to 7-750yds. My rifle is a Rem 700 338 RUM with NF scope pushing a 250 gr AB around 3000 fps. Also have a 30-378 Wby that will shoot right along side of it with 200 ABs. I have both Swaro & Leica rangefinders. I have target butts to 750 yds off my back porch and shoot year around. Actually 4-500 yds is a pretty easy distance to make a shooter proficient at. Out past that it gets interesting. Windy--I don't take the shot. Phil NRA Life Member since 1976 philny1@zoominternet.net 877 485-6270 Visa/MC accepted , plus 3% We have to save the Earth, only planet with beer!! "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". Thomas Jefferson | |||
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You know irregardless,,, can anyone say bitchslap? (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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If you practice enough, you know what you and your equipment are capable of, then 400yds can be a chip shot. I have a few firearms in the truck year round and shoot crows, groundhogs, starlings, etc. I shoot several times a week not just prior to season. I am personally as comfortable with a 400 yd shot with a couple of rifles as I am with a 20 yd shot with my bow. Practice is the key with anything we are passionate about. This the reason most of us are not professional golfers. You can call it hunting or not. That is a personal choice. Long range hunting is a product of alot of hunting and shooting. Maybe the ones who think it is unreasonable should just practice a little more. Shooting, hunting, and the outdoor lifestyle is my passion; whats yours. God Bless, Louis | |||
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I think the thread is getting confused: "I had built a 17lb rifle for a wildcat 25 caliber rifle. 110gr Fowler VLDs at 3900fps. The scope was a Premier Reticle/Leupold boosted to 18-42X with a set of windage lines 3moa left and right of the center line, and 1/8moa dots 3,6,and 9moa high, and 3,6,9,12moa below the crosshairs junction. I had Oehlers ballistic program and made a printout from 200 to 1250yds in 25yd increments" "I shoot a 22 pound 338Edge that drives 300gr Smk's to 2850fps. I use a 5.5-22X Nightforce, an ACI cosign indicator, a Kestrel wind meter and weather station, A Swarovski range finder, and the Exbal trajectory system." Neither these or my custom .300RUM, .308 LRS-2 Blaser, .338LM TAC-2 Blaser,etc, etc, can be thought of as what the implication of the original posted words portray as an "off-the-shelf" hunting rifle, at least in my eyes. I would think more in line of a Sendero, or 110V, or Ruger 77V on the heavy end to standard 700's, 77's, 70's,etc on the light end. Taking "standard" mass produced rifle and optics as the base line and putting the average guy with these against you and your "specials" or me and my "specials" is not the point, or at least as I see it. Just for grins I borrowed some new rifles( and their proud owners) (who shall remain nameless @ their request) and we went to the "ranch" yesterday. Targets at known distances,100,250,350,500,750, 1000, and a bonus "unknown"(size and distance) at 430, away from the original targets by 90degrees and on a hillside. (No laser range finder) Some of the "off-the-shelf" rifles did well in almost everyones hands, while others did not, at the known ranges up to 350 and even 500. We rotated, shooting each others rifles (and obviously, this is where the"nameless" aspect comes in some shot well& others did not. To remove bias ,I did not set the"unknown" myself. Two of the five of us contacted the 430 on the first shot. (all are experienced shooters/ hunters) The two of us that did ,have military and/or competition history AND we practice regularly. What was of most note to me, is that up to 350 almost all, even with unfamiliar rifles did well, as I expected, after all I have seen these guys shoot a great deal. However, even with their own rifles they missed repeatedly at the unknown, and these guys are no chumps at shooting. My point: You and I and others may hunt at long distances well, others may not, AND an "unknown" 400yds with an "off-the-shelf" is not Known 400yds. Additionally, my "specials" and ranging equipment; and your"specials" and ranging equipment are not the "norm". I feel safe to say as I did before: 400yards is no chip shot (look at some of today's Augusta chip shots by the pro's) DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I'll bet that little baby is a dream to pack on a timberline elk hunt! | |||
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Ya, its not my only rifle! I usually just pack it to an ambush site, but I don't mind packing it in a 3 point sling for a morning....Call it a specialized tool in the cabinet. The USMC sniper rifle is 16 pounds and those guys don't complain.....I mean....How weak are we that we need 7 pound rifles? I should add that there is no such thing as a game chip shot at any range....each shot needs to be quickly measured and evaluated. It takes some serious dedication to become proficient way out there. The guy that runs out and buys a 300 Ultra thinking it will get him long range kills is dreaming....As always it is the nut behind the trigger. | |||
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practice,practice,practice and when you think you got it figured out, go back and practice some more. off the store shelf, model 70 in 7stw, topped with a leopold 3x9 for every shot that i've fired at game there are 100+ fired in practice. my longest 670 yds,nearly a dozen at ranges exceeding 500 yds. none of them are chip shots, but the level of confidence on the shots go way up with the level of practice invested. that said i missed a bull at 120 last yr. | |||
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How do you dial for 670yards with a 3X9 scope....Or do you just hold over?? | |||
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drop is found with sheet of plywod or sheetrock stood on edge. 6" bull spraypainted at top of sheet. minute of angle adjusted as the range increases, i shoot and average the drop and have "dope" taped to side of stock. average bull elk is 28-30" withers to brisket deer = 22-24" antelope 18-20" practice is on paper and milk jugs at distance i use these references to adjust my holdover | |||
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I respectfully disagree. One year in Alabama my brother and I were on a mountain hunting. Christmas day if I recall. I was sitting on a slope, with my back up against a flat rock and I propped my feet onto a fallen log. Much like a recliner and I remember being very comfortable. Just at daylight, I could hear a deer walking right in front of me from my left to my right. I released the safety. The wind was blowing in my face. There was a huge oak about 2 feet from my feet. When the deer got behind that tree, I raised my rifle, but didn't even have to shoulder it. The shot was maybe 6 or 7 feet. It was much like a standing hip shot. He fell right there and it was certainly a "chip" shot.  Factory Ruger MK II 270 and 150 ballistic tip handloads with IMR4350. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Funny, I had a similar experience, was"guiding" some inexperienced friends on what for a couple of them was their first deer hunt.(a cull operation) I placed two of them in locations near game trails in ground hides. No sooner than I had placed the second one ,there was a report from the first hunters gun. Went back to that location and at the end of his 30-06 barrel was a spike that had literally stepped on him. No sooner than I loaded them in the Jeep I heard a shot from the second hunter; not quite on top of him we found another spike , at least this one did not have powder burns. They were initially disappointed "This was too easy", that has changed over the now many years since. Neither they nor I have seen it this "easy" ever again. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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You are indeed correct. Several years ago I rode with a local police officer to identify a check forging suspect. I pointed to his magazine holster and asked him if the department was still using Federal Hydro-Shocks. He looked at me with a blank stare and replied, "I use whatever the department supplies." He passed me one of his magazines to inspect and told me I probably knew more about the ammo than he did. You always think these guys live and breathe firearms, but it just ain't so. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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 Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Here is the way I look at it,. Yea I know people that shoot 900-1000 yds and Make kills. But the average hunter say East Coast kills deer less than a 100 yrs. They Brag and say I killed that deer at 250 yrds. When a first Timmer comes to the west and trys Hunting at a long distance he is at a Loss, because he did not do his Home Work. A Hunter not a shooter spend a few days sighting in his rifle and thats it. People Who are shooter work and play with loads to get the best out of the rifle they are going to use.I load my own and shoot alot , Yes I have killed Mule deer at 425 yds. I would like it better between 100-300 yds this way if I make a good shot the animal has been killed Cleanly and I do not have to chase the animal all over Hell and back. I know my rifle and the load , if a 200 class mulie is at 400 yds and I can't get closer I will shoot. | |||
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2 years ago I could have put my first shot out of my heavy .22RF match rifle right into the head of a Groundhog at 200 yards...that was before I moved to the city for college and had to give up hi-power across the course, revolver shooting at 200 yards and shooting my beloved sharps at various ranges. I don't practice enough anymore as I only get to the range now about once every two months. As opposed to when I lived at home and was at the range 4 times a week at least. I've seen some impressive long shots on game. I wouldn't take a longer shot on big game unless I've practiced it before hand. And like a few of you it seems I too carry around a range finder and practice judging distances when out and about. It does help. that being said I'm loading up the last of my 45-70 brass for the sharps express rifle and I have a date with my chicken, pig, ram and turkey this weekend not a silhouette match but these are placed at random ranges on a private range. Yes you can shoot it...No you can't have it...Yes I will hunt you down if it turns up missing | |||
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Uhhh... The guy was a Marine and a Marine Drill Instructor (ever hear the phrase "All Marines are riflemen first"?) L-O-N-G before he was an actor. He gets tapped to play a Marine because he IS a Marine. the only Ex-Marine is Lee Harvey Oswald. He also has a long career as a competetive Marksman, so "without any training at all" is gross ignorance on your part. R. Lee Ermy is an actor true, but without the back story... Another "Actor" who often plays a Soldier or Marine is Dale Dye, a former Marine Master Sergeant. Gerald McRainey is another actor former Marine. They only begin the list... AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Allan, the difference between ignorance and naivity is just not giving a damn, and I do, It's interesting to learn he was a former DS, very believeable for sure. I didn't research the guys background, I just have seen him in a bunch of movies--not knowing he was a Marine is NOT ignorance--especially gross ignorance--geez.......I stand by my comment of no training at all, meaning he was not familiar with the particular equipment and situation, but I accept your point he was already a trained rifleman. Ever seen a movie with Clint Eastwood in it? What the hell did he do before acting, do you know? How about Robert Redford? Pick your actor. The fact that he WAS a marine, is neat-- and helps explain why he is comfortable with weapons, but my point is that trained snipers, and obviously old Marines, can hit a target way out there with the gear they have. I still say 400 ain't a chip shot though. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shof: Based on what I see every year at the rifle range, probably one third of the "hunters" are incapable of hitting an eight inch circle at 100 yards offhand with five shots. Heck, many of them cannot keep a three shot group inside three inches from a benchrest! I've successfully taken two animals at distances over 400 yards (laser ranged) and those were (to me at least) VERY long shots. QUOTE] Outside of praire dogs, I have never shot a big game animal over 300 yards. Where I go, you can get closer. Funny thing is, a lot of my non sport shooting friends seem to think that a 300-400 yard shot is "easy" and that I (one who practices a lot) should be able to hit a gnat at 800 yards. | |||
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You are confusing ignorant, naive and indifferent. Indifference may refer to: apathy, the lack of emotion, motivation, or enthusiasm; a psychological term for a state of indifference. Naivity, misplaced belief in an ability or outcome. Ignorance is the state in which a person lacks knowledge and is unaware of something. This should not be confused with being unintelligent, as one's level of intelligence and level of education or general awareness are not the same. The word "Ignorant" is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware. Gross ignorance, that would be subjective, but ignorance is the correct term. | |||
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Isn't that the truth! It never ceases to amaze me at the unbelievably poor marksmanship and rifle handling one witnesses at the range....Every time I go I see the same crap. The last time I went to the range there was a guy there with a brand new Rem 300Ultra with a 4.5-14X50LRT scope(running a B&C reticle). The guy was cussing the rifle's accuracy (from the benchrest) as he rapidly fired round after round into about a ten inch group. I couldn't help myself and in the process of talking to the guy I asked if I could try the rifle. He handed me the smoking hot rifle and three rounds...I handed back a sub 1.5 inch group and asked for 3 more. I cleaned the rifle, let it cool and slowly shot the last three rounds into less than 3/4 inch...The POI was about 6 inches high, but who cares when your tested a load..... The guy announced to his girlfriend that I had sighted the rifle in and he was done...Going moose hunting! You all know what I should have done with that last round. | |||
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And we come to one of the reasons I have a lot of problems with the long range hot shots. If the deer/elk/whathaveyou doesn't drop dead on the spot and goes over the hill, how many of the nimrods are going to be able to go to the exact spot to check for a blood trail or tracks to make sure they've made a clean miss? How many are going to make the effort? I've seen the shows where several fat guys are standing around the truck when the shot is made. They all look like they're several donuts shy of walking 100 yards, much less several hundred. I've read about how the serious guys set up for long range shots and there is a lot more to it than whanging away at the 600 yard gong a few times. They have specialize eq and they practice, practice, practice. Something that too few will commit to. To those guys, a 400 yard shot would be a lot easier than to say me but it wouldn't be a chip shot everyday. | |||
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The name of the actor is R. Lee Ermey. He is a former U.S. Marine Corps Sergeant. Life is too short to be taken seriously, it is only temporary and none of us are getting out of it alive. | |||
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