Had a guy tell me that in a gunshop the other day.

He said that with 'todays equipment' (meaning off the shelf rifles and factory ammo and a high powered variable scope) the effective range for him on big game was about 800 yards.

Odd how I rarely see these guys at the gun club except for a week before deer season when they "sight in".

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
Had a guy tell me that in a gunshop the other day.

He said that with 'todays equipment' (meaning off the shelf rifles and factory ammo and a high powered variable scope) the effective range for him on big game was about 800 yards.

Odd how I rarely see these guys at the gun club except for a week before deer season when they "sight in".

Thats an offhand standing shot, right?

Wouldn't be anything but I'm sure.

LOL! While it might certainly be true of today's rifles, ammunition and optics, there's still one problem that "today's equipment" cannot solve, the loose nut behind the buttplate!

Based on what I see every year at the rifle range, probably one third of the "hunters" are incapable of hitting an eight inch circle at 100 yards offhand with five shots. Heck, many of them cannot keep a three shot group inside three inches from a benchrest!

I've successfully taken two animals at distances over 400 yards (laser ranged) and those were (to me at least) VERY long shots.

It takes a very special shooter to consistently hit vitals at 800 yards! I think there are very few of those type of shooters! And then, there is the whole question of ethics.....

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
Had a guy tell me that in a gunshop the other day.

He said that with 'todays equipment' (meaning off the shelf rifles and factory ammo and a high powered variable scope) the effective range for him on big game was about 800 yards.

Odd how I rarely see these guys at the gun club except for a week before deer season when they "sight in".

The clowns like that here wait till THE DAY BEFORE Deer season to sight in...
And we got a bunch of 'em.

An 800 yard shot on game requires some serious preparation and study but it is not "impossible".

A 400 yard shot, to a practiced shooter, for a target the size of 8" or so is fairly easy provided the shooter determines the shot conditions.

Most rifles can easily sling a chunk of lead 400 yards with fair precision. A marksman would/should know to adjust the sights (or scope) to make point of aim and point of impact coincide at any distance. Once the rifle is "zero'ed" at the distance to the target it is fairly easy to make a good shot. Long range marksmanship is not rocket science.

Yes, there is the wind component but for the sake of staying civil we'll say the shooter won't shoot to long distances in a windy condition (there is never a long range shot opportunity in Wyoming).

quote:

Thats an offhand standing shot, right?

Yes. In a thunder storm. With a tornado approaching.

Know a guy who is always making long range kills on wt deer (300 to 450 yds). While riding with him one day he kept trying point out this 'big buck' "Way out there!". I failed to see it. Turns out, he was pointing to a smallish 7-pt about 75 yds away. (now his 250 yd neck shots weren't so impressive.)

quote:

Originally posted by Willie B:
Know a guy who is always making long range kills on wt deer (300 to 450 yds). While riding with him one day he kept trying point out this 'big buck' "Way out there!". I failed to see it. Turns out, he was pointing to a smallish 7-pt about 75 yds away. (now his 250 yd neck shots weren't so impressive.)

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU....

Most "800" yard shots are not anywhere near 800 yards. Most people cant even see something that is 800 yards away unless it is 8 square feet covered in blaze orange and moving!!

I've always thought the better hunters were better hunters because where possible they got closer to the game than everyone else.

800 yard shots should probably be left to military snipers. now those are impressive shots!

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
Had a guy tell me that in a gunshop the other day.

Are you sure it wasn't April Fool's Day?

I just love the guys that buy a new rifle, have the shop mount a scope and bore sight it with one of those gadgets, then they go hunting.
As bad are those that let the gunsmith sight the gun.
But with the super-duper magnum they bought for 100# deer, it just HAS to be good for a mile!
I had a neighbor come get me to help find a deer. We went back to his stand to start and he showed me where the deer was when he shot. About 40 yd's. I could NOT see his stand through the trees and brush and he was using a 7mm mag!!!!! Of course there was no deer at the end and I reamed him out for doing something so stupid.
I learned to take an exact 3' pace when walking a range and am rarely off more then a foot if measured but most guys just take little normal steps so that 200 yd's is actually 125 to 150 for them. Then up and down hills, around trees and brush, across gullys can make shots into super long range fast.
AH, the simple life of the average hunter!

I know exactly the guys you're talking about! My laser rangefinder has made monkeys out of more than one of my hunting friends.

Well it isn't what I consider a chip shot but it is a doable one. Beyond 400 yards my confidence starts to fade. I pulled off a shot beyond 500 yards once on game and the accuracy gods were smiling on me that day.

I find most of what has been said to be true. I had a guy I work with who said he held dead on on his elk at 600 yards and dropped it. I asked him what rifle and scope he was using, and he told me it was a Savage package rifle he picked up in .300 Win Mag. I then asked him what range he zeroed at and he told me 100 yards. He said that the guy who sold him the rifle told him if he zeroed at 100 he could hold dead on and anything within 800 was going down.

So I called BS on his story and proceeded to prove that with a 100 yard zero he couldn't hit an elk with no adjustment to the scope or without a lot of holdover. At least he was willing to listen and learn and realized that it wasn't a 600 yard shot. He did say "It seemed like 600 yards though!"

Standing backwards with the rifle on his shoulder aiming with a brokern mirror!!

Several years back, I was at a local "sportmans Auction", and a guy bought one of the old relector style range finders. This auction barn is out in the country and the surrounding area is crop land and timber river bottom land. I walked out the door and this guy is messing with the range finder. He turned to me as I walked past and asked, "how far is 1100 meters?" I estimated about 1200yd. He frowned and said something about the range finder being f*cked up. I asked what he was ranging, and pointed to some trees quite a ways off, and I said that seemed about right. He says, "can't be, I shoot bullseyes at a thousand yards". I stifled a laugh and told him to have a nice day. I made to my truck but I was laughing so hard i couldn't see by the time i left the parking lot.

seems like somebody is watching to much TV

It is never a good idea to judge the rest of the world from the level of a persons own inadequecy

Some people could not hit a bull in the ass from ten feet with a handfull of gravel

There are indeed others to whom that kind of shot is indeed a chip shot
I have seen and know presently both types

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
It is never a good idea to judge the rest of the world from the level of a persons own inadequecy

Some people could not hit a bull in the ass from ten feet with a handfull of gravel

There are indeed others to whom that kind of shot is indeed a chip shot
I have seen and know presently both types

Quite true.

I used to frequent a range just outside of the People's Republic of Eugene.

There was an 18" diameter steel gong 325 yards out (125 yards past the 200 yard targets).
It was amazing how many people missed it entirely on the first shot.

Even more amazing was how many people missed it with the second.

Personally I've had people talking the other way where shots greater than 175-200yards were "chancy" at best and unsportsmanlike at worst.

This being told to me by gunshop "experts" who
have never talked to a varmint shooter and don't understand that when you've practiced for years
on golfball to baseball sized objects out to 350-ish yds
that hitting a deer under the same conditions isn't
exactly like shooting a gnat in the eye at half a mile

Or watching me put five rounds downrange out of a 30-06 semi-auto OFFHAND and producing a group I could cover with a credit card and them snorting and saying "that ain't a tight group believing gun rage nonesense that any rifle that can't do 1/2" is for shit or that ANYONE can produce
1/2" groups when standing, by other than Divine intervention"

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
Had a guy tell me that in a gunshop the other day.

He said that with 'todays equipment' (meaning off the shelf rifles and factory ammo and a high powered variable scope) the effective range for him on big game was about 800 yards.

Odd how I rarely see these guys at the gun club except for a week before deer season when they "sight in".

That sounds like the guy refering to shooting lazer flat at 1000 yards. I looked at him and said you mean no bullet drop and he said yes.

I guess some people will believe anything.

It's an interesting question. Supposedly, the average range estimate is off by 40%. The simple truth is that humans are really bad at estimating range. Basically, unless you measure distance for a living or deliberately practice the skill on a regular basis, your range estimate is worthless; buy a rangefinder.

While I have seen far, far more bad shooting than good both at the range and in the field, I have also witnessed some exceptional shooting by highly skilled individuals. But it's a rare thing.

I killed a mule deer at 515 yds once without cross wind (lasered). That's my longest shot, but it's doable with good equipment, a laser ranger, and very little cross wind.

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
It's an interesting question. Supposedly, the average range estimate is off by 40%. The simple truth is that humans are really bad at estimating range. Basically, unless you measure distance for a living or deliberately practice the skill on a regular basis, your range estimate is worthless; buy a rangefinder.

While I have seen far, far more bad shooting than good both at the range and in the field, I have also witnessed some exceptional shooting by highly skilled individuals. But it's a rare thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
I know exactly the guys you're talking about! My laser rangefinder has made monkeys out of more than one of my hunting friends.

I was on my route several years ago when I met an older couple at a “hot dog” stand. We started the usual small talk while waiting for our food when I noticed they had both a Barrett Rifles and a Fifty Caliber Shooters Association sticker on the back of the truck. So I asked them how long have they been shooting 50’s?

The guy said several years, and his wife was better than he was. He said he could give her a run for her money most of the time. He said they mostly did 1000-yard shoots, but some 600-yard shoots, and occasionally some longer shoots also, out to 2000 yards.

We got to talking about how hard it is judging distance, wind, long shots, etc. I told them I practiced judging distance with my laser rangefinder. First I would pick an object, guesstimate the range, and verify with the rangefinder. I told him you get pretty good after a while, and it is amazing how close you can get.

He said let’s see how good I am at judging distance. There was a grain silo off in the distance and he said that looks to be 600 to 700 yards off. I said, no more like 800 maybe even as much as 1000, but not less than 800. I settled on 900 as my final guesstimate.

I go to the truck and get out the rangefinder and after what seemed like an eternity trying to get the shiny curved metal to reflect, bingo 857! I then ranged the house (a little closer, and off to the side) and it was 785. He could not believe it.

I told him to go out and buy a $150 rangefinder, and a couple spare batteries (I used to carry a couple extra) and have at it. He told me that they were not used to judging distance as they KNEW the distance to the targets, but being able to judge distance would be an asset when doping the wind.

I borrowed a buddy's range finder a couple years ago just to see how good I was at estimating distance, I was shocked at how much I sucked at it past 200yd. I shoot regularly at distances up to 200, but I always thought I was reasonably accurate beyond. The rangefinder can humble you in hurry.

I've posted this before, but I love the story.

Had a local asswipe who was ALWAYS bragging about his LR kills on deer and elk at 800-900 yds. He owned a bar/supper club and one evening while he was bragging to a group of us I challenged him to hit one of his 4' diameter cocktail tables at 800 yds 3 out of 5 times.

Told him he could use any of his hunting guns, any sort of rest, etc.

The group of us set up range dates SEVERAL times. He never seemed to be able to ever attend. Always busy.

The bragging sure stopped though.

FN in MT

A "chip shot" ? I think not. I would wager that with a nice 5x5 mule deer at 400 yards in the mountains that Mr. Chip Shot would have a hard time connecting unless he is shooting from a 3 point rest and the rifle weighs 20 lbs.

My longest is 491 yds and that was due to lousy estimating and a dead range finder battery. Never would I do that again. My personal limit is 300 yards and I have not exceeded it except this once.

Do yourself a favor and learn to hunt, then you won't need to attempt "chip shots".

I have shot whitetail at 300 yards plus from a solid rest in a wooden box stand in Wisconsin. I also shot an antelope in Wyoming at 326 yards but again I had a very solid rest and a rangefinder.

I passed a nice red hartebeast in Namibia a couple of years ago because I had left my rangefinder in camp and the PH was estimating 300 - 350 yards and I did not have a solid rest.

I do not want to track wounded game so 350 -400 yards is pushing it for me.

I do have a friend that will shoot farther and saw him shoot an antelope at 600 yards - ranged with a rangefinder with a 30-378 weatherby. But he practices a lot at long range and has more confidence than I do. He does not shoot this far except when required and tries for under 200 yards like most of us.

400 yards a "chip shot" I think not for 90% plus of shooters.

BigB

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
Had a guy tell me that in a gunshop the other day.

He said that with 'todays equipment' (meaning off the shelf rifles and factory ammo and a high powered variable scope) the effective range for him on big game was about 800 yards.

Odd how I rarely see these guys at the gun club except for a week before deer season when they "sight in".

When I lived in AZ in the 90s, I knew of a fella that shot small targets (I'm guessing 9" paper plates) at 750 yards all the time. I don't recall ever seeing him miss. If memory serves, he was shooting what looked like a nice hunting rifle. I am fairly certain it was a 7mm STW. I sat next to him time and time again. He was one of the guys that introduced me to reloading and practicing shooting off the bench.

Everytime I'd go to a range, I always used a solid rest, never a bipod, prone, standing, offhand. He changed me on that. I rarely saw him shoot from the bench.

So, here's my take on the guy in the store (and every other person I encounter like him). Either he can shoot exactly as he claims, practices, is very good, and simply wanted to brag about it, OR, he WISHES he could shoot that well b/c he's read about it or knows someone who does that well, and is boasting on nothing and is completely full of sheeyat.

I think it is natural for most of us to immediately call BS on such people but the fact is, there are hunters who eat, crap, and breath, long range shooting and hunting and shoot more rounds in a month that most of us in a year. Learning to buck the wind and knowing the distance is the key.

As far as being able to see a game animal at 800 yards, well, I can't do that very well. I simply don't have the necessary sharp vision. HOWEVER, when in Nebraska in 2005, my buddy Adam was spotting antelope almost a mile away with the naked eye. I just stood in awe that he could spot them so fast.

Anyone watch "Best of the West" on the outdoor channel? I hate watching it because it's basically one big ad for the rifle and scope they use on the show, but a short shot for them is 300 yards (or so they claim, I guess I shouldn't assume that TV never lies). One episode, one of the guys (they all seem to be bull riders or bull fighters) shot a pronghorn at 875 yards. They had 4-6 guys standing around the truck on one ridge, had optics, a wind gauge, all these little tricks, and a tripod like you see the military .50 cals mounted on set up. you watch the shot, see the bullet mirage, and watch the buck crumple to the ground on the next ridge. Huskemaw optics and some rifle they use. I guess the whole point of this story is that it can be done, but I'll say that it's not really hunting at that point; the antelope don't have a 60x spotting scope to see danger with...

It isn't as hard as it sounds to shoot at long distances. It is all a matter of judging drop and wind.

I have shot prairie dogs at VERY long distances. All I had to do was watch where the bullets hit in the dust and adjust accordingly. It is amazingly easy.

I would not try the same thing with a deer under any circumstance.

I watched a show the other night called, Top Sniper. They had 33 teams and only one team hit the 800 meter target. With this in mind, and I am assuming that these guys know there rifles, loads, and how to shoot distance, that other people can go out in the hunting fields and make these long shots. Are hunters better at shooting long distance than trained snipers? Maybe someone could shed some light on this for me? Thanks John

quote:

Originally posted by spud1949:
Are hunters better at shooting long distance than trained snipers?

Yes, some are.

quote:

Maybe someone could shed some light on this for me? Thanks John

I do a lot of hunting with a police officer. His good friend, now retired, was in charge of all purchasing for the department, including sniper weapons, ammo, etc. We've talked many times about the sniper team, their practices, etc. Frankly most don't shoot at these extended distances, as where many of these long range hunters/shooters do, and they do it daily.

When my brother and I were in Wyoming in 2006 for pronghorn, we were shooting at that range on the north end of Casper. I was shooting my 7mag at 300 yards. We were next to 2 guys from California if I recall and they were both shooting what looked like police sniper 308s. We struck up a conversation and they both stated they were on the swat team and were "snipers."

My groups were much better than theirs at 200 and 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
I was shooting my 7mag at 300 yards. We were next to 2 guys from California if I recall and they were both shooting what looked like police sniper 308s. We struck up a conversation and they both stated they were on the swat team and were "snipers."

My groups were much better than theirs at 200 and 300 yards.

LOL, I'm likely to set off a firestorm, but I've got a bunch of friends that are law enforcement officers. It's been my experience that they're not that good of shots! Even with a handgun, I can shoot with, or outshoot most of them! Of course, I'm not attempting to do this with someone shooting back, so they'd probably smoke me in that scenario!

quote:

Originally posted by spud1949:
I watched a show the other night called, Top Sniper. They had 33 teams and only one team hit the 800 meter target. With this in mind, and I am assuming that these guys know there rifles, loads, and how to shoot distance, that other people can go out in the hunting fields and make these long shots. Are hunters better at shooting long distance than trained snipers? Maybe someone could shed some light on this for me? Thanks John

Did not see the show in question, my jaded view ,if it was on the tele , BE skeptical.

I do agree most shooters and or hunters have little concept of range.
I do agree optics and "off-the-shelf" ammunition and rifles in general are remarkably improved and many are capable of longrange work.

The eons old stories of the off hand snap shot at X hundreds of yards are unlikely to fall from our hunting camp lore anytime soon.

In fact, with the sharp increase in longrange shooting and hunting training ---just the opposite: more exceptional stories are likely.

I am not criticizing the purveyors of the art, nor it's potential value to shooters or hunters.

On the contrary, I believe any and all training with experienced professional instructors has value.

My concern lies in the "graduates" over confidence coupled with infrequent and predominately un-regimented and unsupervised
"practice".

Purposeful, repetitive, frequent and critiqued practice is the key to success in most,if not all endeavors requiring hand/ eye coordination.

When you add breathing and heart rate control along with wind and distance judgment as well as trajectory knowledge, the skill "package" must be exemplary to be useful.

Having learned the mildot system many years ago and having shot competitively I had reason to believe in my distance judging ability.

However with the advent of the laser range finder the old system became obviously inadequate, particularly in measuring objects of imprecise size and unknown range. (As well as, showing a remarkable improvement over the image matching standard focal/ optical rangefinders.)

"Walking" shots in on prairie dogs, while it is longrange shooting, in my opinion is not longrange hunting.(and I have no problem with this.)

I continue to shoot longrange at both targets and game(and have been at times resoundingly criticized for it.)

I practice almost weekly and
increase the frequency and unknown distance work before an impending trip to the field.

I work diligently in order to satisfy hunting saftey and ethics taught to me over these many years; and do not consider a well trained, equipped and frequently practiced artisan a non-ethical shooter and not a hunter , as do so many that consider anyone taking a shot beyond the "point blank" sighting range of a rifle.

This artisan is a hunter, if as all hunters should, he/she identifies the game, inspects the area for other hunters and property in the line of fire, carefully evaluates the shot, steadies the rifle to his/her best ability, evaluates range and conditions, assesses other options and carefully fires the shot.

That having been said 400yds is by no means a chip shot under most hunting conditions (as any golfer knows how chip shots can fall )

Doc you have to remember cop snipers would rarely train at long distances and would probably never take a shot outside of 200 yards un like military snipers. Its funny how we talk about the long range wonders and when it comes time to put the hammer down on a treed cougar at 10 to 20 yards I have seen many poor shots and have had to finish off wounded cats.

quote:

Originally posted by chilcotin hillbilly:
Doc you have to remember cop snipers would rarely train at long distances and would probably never take a shot outside of 200 yards un like military snipers.

Yes, I realize this. The above post does not define what type of snipers were in the show. He simply wrote "Top Sniper."

The show I was referring to was about military sniper training out of Fort Biegning, Georgia. I'am not talking police snipers, since there targets are much closer. I want to know how hunters expect to go out and shoot hundreds of yards and place a killing shot on game, when only 1 team out of 33 hit a 800 meter target? Thanks John

quote:

Originally posted by spud1949:
The show I was referring to was about military sniper training out of Fort Biegning, Georgia. I'am not talking police snipers, since there targets are much closer. I want to know how hunters expect to go out and shoot hundreds of yards and place a killing shot on game, when only 1 team out of 33 hit a 800 meter target? Thanks John

In your first post regarding the show, you did not specify military or police snipers. It's not an easy question to answer:

quote:

I want to know how hunters expect to go out and shoot hundreds of yards and place a killing shot on game, when only 1 team out of 33 hit a 800 meter target?

I guess my question to you is why does one have anything to do with the other? Why do you assume that a military sniper hitting a target at 800 meters is the necessary condition for a hunter to hit a kill zone at the same distance? That is what you are implying. Your question implies that "if military snipers can't do it on a regular basis, how can a hunter expect to?" Correct?

Well, I don't think there is a right answer for this. Most guys I know that shoot/hunt at very long range have very high dollar custom rifles with the very best barrels chambered with custom reamers, and usually tight necks. I don't know that military sniper teams have that luxury.

I also know that the bulk of long range hunters/shooters use handloads for their rifle. I think the military uses factory stuffed ammo. I cannot imagine each and every military sniper rifle having handloads worked up for it, can you?

What I can tell you is that I know and have seen guys take their custom rifles out to a range, and time & time again repeatedly hit targets at rediculous ranges. Perhaps they have a lot more trigger time than the military snipers, I don't know.

Finally, if the 33 teams only produced one group that could hit a target at 880 yards, then the rest of them simply suck and need more trigger time or need to learn how to shoot better in the wind.

Doc its obvious that these custom rifles and handloads do play a part in success for the practiced hunter. That tv show Best of the West week after week shows people who are shooting that rifle only a few times before taking game at 600 plus yards. I always wonder how many animals were shot at before that picture perfect high shoulder shot. I heard of another TV show (which I will not name) where the host took 3 shots with his bow at a bobcat in a tree and finally killed it with a 22 mag. But when the show aired it looked like the cat was taken on the first shot with the bow. This long range stuff is best kept at the range.