I have a friend who has a gorgeous 7x7 elk that will be available for harvest from a Texas private game preserve this fall. He is expected to score comfortably over 400.

Elk of this size routinely bring $22k - $25k on the big elk ranches but my buddy wants less than half of that. If you or a friend wants a monster elk, here's a chance for you to get one well below market.

Email me for more info.

Oh, yeah, I did not start this thread to be bashed about taking an elk on a game preserve. Yes, it is on a preserve - if that bothers you just please don't respond. Your flaming will not change the fact that the elk will be sold and I will not get into an argument about it.

Have a great day!

JDS

I don't think this belongs in the big game hunting forum. I'd think about putting it in the classified section if I were you.

Game Preserve?

It should be called a target preserve....

Wash. hunter-

I liked that!

JDS-

If you havnt had much experience on this site then you should know that there are hoards of people like me who will say anything they want, even if it pisses off people.



Buell

[ 08-11-2002, 23:09: Message edited by: Buell ]

Buell:

That was gratuitous, you really are an obnoxious twit, hiding behind the internet. I would really enjoy seeing you come to Texas and talk to most of the members from here IN PERSON like you just responded to jds. I hope you are at least as tough as your mouth indicates you are, you'll need to be.

Buell,

May I ask why you had to reply to jds like you did?

All this does is remove any respect people sharing this forum might have for your opinion.

I am sure your command of the English language is such that you could have expressed your displeasure of shooting this animal inside a fence differently.

I would also agree this post should be moved to the classifieds as an animal is being sold not a hunt.

I would agree with Wash.hunter that this is more suitable to the classified section since it is essentially the sale of an elk mount.
Just out of curiousity, what safeguards are in place to ensure that animals like this are not included in the recordbooks? Or are they?
Would also agree with Gatogordo that Buell does seem to be a bit of a dink. I hate to think that he may be from Idaho. It's embarassing. Regards, Bill.

Buell,

Many of your posts that I have read seem to be very abrasive, but I typically choose to ignore them. It is sad, because if you ever do indeed have anything of value to add to this forum, I will not pay attention to it and I'm sure many people here feel the same.

I think Fat Cat's (Gatogordo) advice is sound. Try not to post anything that you would not be willing to say to someone in person. You may be a tough guy, but the true tough guys (I'm not one) that I know are a bit more humble about their capabilities.

There is a saying where JDS is from:

"Don't mess with Texas"

I have heard that the saying is well earned.

Sincerely

Tim

I get so riled over the amount of abuse and disrespect that gets handed out to innocent, decent, honest people at times on these forms that I just shake by head in disbelief. I agree that without some chickenshit computer to hide behind, these abusers would shrink away in a hurry if they had to go face-to-face with the folks they're insulting.

AD

Gentlemen,

I hope someone can enlighten me, but I understand that this type of "hunting" is quite wide spread in the US.

Saeed, yes sir, this sort of hunting has become quite prevalent in various parts of the U.S. and even Canada now. In Texas, game ranching is quite a business, and big game animals - from whitetail deer to exotics - are an important cash crop.

Some folks look down their nose at selling an elk hunt of this sort to someone, only to have that customer go out and shoot the animal without - shall we say - "due process". I've hunted elk the hard way (meaning outfitting my own hunts) since I was a teenager, so I guess I'd be a prime candidate to go into a tizzy over this sort of thing, but I don't.

As I see it, there are folks who have wanted a trophy-size elk all their lives, but have never been able to collect one for various reasons. Some of these folks have plenty of money to buy any elk hunt they desire, but they no longer have the physical tools (due to advanced age, etc.) that would allow them to get up the mountain on a traditional western elk hunt. I don't begrudge these people a chance to fulfill a dream, even if it isn't in the manner in which I'd choose to go about it myself. That elk is going to get sold anyway, and it's going to die anyway - it's just a question of when - and it was raised for this purpose if the first place.

AD

No affront to JDS, but this is not my type of hunting. I would be interested in seeing a picture of this elk out of curiosity. I think that this type of hunting is more prevalent than I first imagined. However, I think that it may slow down somewhat in Texas for a while. I believe Texas has halted the importation of deer and elk due to the chronic wasting disease breakout.

Let me be clear that I don't hunt any of these type of "canned" or semi-canned hunts. Indeed, I have never hunted on a high fenced ranch except for bird hunting. And they can clear the fence.

However, it is strictly a business, just like cattle ranching, and it is just about as tough to make any money at as any other kind of ranching I understand. In my mind there is little or no difference between shooting one of these elk or big whitetails and eating a steak. It just costs more. In both cases you have paid, directly or indirectly for the animal to be killed. And if someone gets some pleasure out of the "hunt" or trophy that they obtain, then that is their business. It is not my call but I don't think they should be allowed in trophy books, but I am not concerned with the trophy book anyway, so I'll let people that are worry about that problem.

I understand the market has pretty well collapsed for American buffalo, and there are likely to be a lot of bargains for buffalo hunts available in the next few months. I would do that, with the knowledge that it was just like going and shooting one of my bulls. Wouldn't bother me, and I would enjoy the meat, and the head and hide as a wall decoration, but I sure wouldn't call it hunting. If anyone wants a canned longhorn hunt, let me know.

I don't think I'll want to do a canned hunt until maybe I'm 90 years old and can't do it the way I'd like any more, if I last that long and still want to hunt.

At the same time, there are some marginal benefits to the canned hunt. An inexperienced person will probably not wound game and lose it, will get a taste of game cleaned correctly in the field, and will learn something about the shooting part of things at minimum. Some guides do not provide much more than that in a wilderness setting. With a little luck, the shooter will graduate to hunting.

I'd agree that it has more in common with farming than hunting, but the aspect of morality is best invoked when those of us who can do better, do not. A rank beginner with limited time may not feel able to do it differently, but still want to start somewhere.

Tom

I will tell you what amuses me is all this hoopla about fenced hunts..the same folks that hunt fenced ranches in Africa, New Zeland, Europe and Australia and Canada think it evil to hunt a fenced ranch in the USA...

The same people that hunt in the East on very small farms are crying about fenced ranches. C'mon guys some of those fenced ranches in Texas are larger than most states...I hunt a fenced ranch that is 100,000 acres, another that is 50,000 acres and several more than 20,000 acres..They ARE fair chase. When I hunt on public land in Idaho, I cannot utilize that much country, actually I hunt about 3,000 ac. of a 150,000 ac. National forrest, smaller than most Texas ranches...

We always have to deal with pre conceived ideas by folks that have no actual knowledge of the subject...

Has anyone bothered to ask Gatogordo how big this place is??...

The hardest elk hunt I know is on a 8,000 ac. ranch and it may take you a week to get a shot at a bull and the place is crawling with elk....The King ranch is fenced and you can enter the gate at 6:00 AM and leave it about midnight if you drive stright through...

I take most of this with a grain of salt from people who do most of their hunting in cyberspace. Like my "canned elephant" that Buell refers to that is in a 190,000 acre plot of land and can got back into Kruger any time he pleases, get a life Buell..Everytime you open your mouth you bite off more than you can chew, You now have lost All respect on this board....

Ray,

The way I understand it, when someone books to shoot a specific animal like this, the farmer catches the required elk, then places it in a very small fenced up area.

The client turns up, shoots it, and gets on his way.

I actually got this information from someone who sells these sorts of hunt. Now whether he is telling me the truth or not I have no way of knowing.

Ray

For every 100,000 acre game fenced ranch in Texas you can find a 5 acre or less game fenced Whitetail farm in Michigan.

There is a big differance between hunting 50,000 GF acres for an animal that you may or may not find and buying a specific animal that has already been scored and is waiting for you to show up.

I agree that there is no differance between raising elk and raising cattle for the marketplace. I do think though that there is a differance between hunting and shooting. And I can guarantee you I have done both.

If someone wants a big elk and is willing to pay the price than fine, have at it. But it is a livestock sale not a hunting forum item.

My opinion and worth every penny you paid for it.

When you are guaranteed to take home a specific animal it is not hunting.

Saeed,I personally know of no such ranches in Texas...At one time there were some cat hunts that were very imoral and criminal, but they were soon exposed.

I think that anyone that knows, not thinks, of such operations then they should expose them by name, name of Operation, address and telephone numbers...We should be our own watchdogs..

This should apply in then USA, Africa and the rest of the world...

Criminal activity and imoral conduct in hunting is worldwide...If the hunt is fair chase then I know of no other criteria that should become involved...Opinnions aren't important unless you put them into effect other than complaining about them....Don't just sit there do something.

Saeed-

I only said what I said because this joker has the balls to come onto this site, advertise an animal for sale, and then tell people not to say anything to him about it. Yes I will say that to his face because I hate this type of shooting of animals.

These types of hunts have led to a great number of people who would other wise be supportive of hunting and shooting to not be. I don't care that his buddy or he is trying to run a business, but its not honorable and I will say that I would say it to his face, again.

The non hunting community I am sure would love to be supportive of us, but how can they when these types of things are going on, and since they dont really know any better they assume all hunters are this way. As you said you think this hunting is wide-spread through the US, and unfortunetly it is.

Our TV hunting shows are filled with this garbage and that is another way the non hunting community sees us. I find him more detremental to our way of life then the average anti-gun person, to be honest.

I wanted to make a point to him that he is not welcomed here by me, and I would hope every other decent person here. I would also hope that the real hunters here would feel the same way about this garbage.

Furthermore his business offering from my perspective is atleast 10x more offensive then any words could ever be.

So no, I will not be giving an apology to JDS. And if I ever meet him or any other "game preserve" operators I will say the same thing to them.

Buell

Anyone who also pays 25,000 dollars for an animal is not just going to go home empty handed, even if part of the money is refunded for the shoot.

I also highly doubt someone selling an animal for even 'half' that is not going to let the shooter go home empty handed because thats 12,500 dollars that isn't in his pocket.

I do not support these types of hunts no matter where they are and have a great disdain for anyone who runs them, shoots in them, or even feels they are worth having around, no matter what.

Also for someone to suggest these preserves is a good place to start someone new to hunting, or in this case shooting, thats plain appalling. I would hope you are not serious.

Buell

JDS has been a friend of mine for about two years now. I met him at a hunting convention and was so impressed with his artistic ability as a taxidermist that I had to stop and tell him so.

I find it humorous that you would say these things to him. I can see him now...sitting at home in front of his computer laughing at you. The words you said to him, I could never imagine coming out of his mouth.

You owe him an apology, not for your ideas or attitude, but for the crude and hateful language you have used.

I will only apologize to him if he apologizes for offending me just as I did to him...

Buell,

You need to apologize to all the forum members for the crap talk. And where is it written that you are the guardian of who and what is said at this site. I'm not for censorship and if someone's post offends you, just not accknowledge their presence. They will soon get the message.

Roger QSL

Buell,
You are just another Mondele, William Tibbe etc. and you certainly are a pain to all on this board apparantly.

Buell, that was intense! good god.

i agree that maybe it was strong, and i agree also, just as buell says, that 'advertisement' though allowed by Saeed, was equally 'a bit much.'

i'm sorry, some people just have to learn to differentiate between HUNTING and KILLING.

any person who pays that money to kill that animal is no human, he is the sick scum of the earth not worthy of MY AIR!...for a quarter, even a fifth the price he could have a real western american, montana or wyoming or idaho or colorado fairchase elk hunt on horseback maybe, with rugged guides and a real good time. of course a week or two hunting for something that's not guarenteed isn't exactly condusive to being able to brag about your 7x7 the next day to your other game-farm business execs, is it?

to hell with this advertisement, no matter who is benefits...it's more destructive than anything!

i agree with atkinson that some of the ranches are large, but if this ranch was as large as the ones you hunt in tex ray, i doubt they would ever find that 7x7.

i'm all for the mutual apology.

QSL-

Then take your own advice and not post to me either.

I am sorry to the forum for having to read what I said to JDS, but I still stand behind what i said to him.

I never said I was the site moderator or anything close. I said he wasnt welcome by me for posting just a garbage add, but I guess he is welcome by most on this site for posting things I thought were looked down upon by real hunters, which I can now see is the oppisite.

I dont see any difference between such an add and someone coming on here selling drugs. I am sure there would be far harsher words if a dealer came on here selling his stuff.

Atkinson-

I have found Tibbe to be far less rude and objectionable then you. I have told you I dont care what you think of me and I still stand behind that. You dont take comments directed at you that you do not like any better then anyone else on here. I am sick of your BS and acting like you have a marginal say into the matters on this site. I would appreciate it if you would not post to me again.

Buell

Saeed is quite correct in his description of how many of these hunts are run.I know of several in saskatchewan that sell elk in this very way.The customer is guaranteed the elk he has chosen out of a catalogue of the ranches bulls.The bull in particular is then placed in an enclosure where it has limited cover and limited room so within a short time it can be found and shot.Most of these so called hunts end in a matter of hours and few last more than a day.It is this kind of practise that the anti hunters are using to turn the general population against hunting.Recently though due to the extreme drought in saskatchewan many of these ranch operators can't locate enough feed for their stock and with CWD such a threat, they can't easily sell the animals fast enough to solve their problem.It looks as though many animals are going to be put down and the carcasses buried for lack of a better solution.It will hurt the ranchers in the short term but in the long term it will benefit us all.

[ 08-11-2002, 02:33: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

I would like to know why those of you who feel if someone wants to hunt on this type of ranch its their business. In a way I can see that point, but do not forget there are a lot of eyes on us.

Do not also forget that most of the diseases in wild elk come from these game farms. This is because the captive elk are commonly held in tighter confines and for other reasons, but I believe it was CWD that game from a game farm.

I dont think this is something to pretend doesn't exist or that its OK. I am not anti-hunting in the least, but I am almost dogmatic about game farms or people selling specific animals to be later shot by some guy with the right amount of cash.

Allen Day, while I can see your point, there are also on the flip side businesses that the owners are nice people, but that doesn't mean their business is honarable or should even exist.

As I said before, when these elk are typically being sold for money, several thousands of dollars, I dont know how this could ever be remotely fair chase. Think about it. These farms as was pointed out have money to make, and they are not going to let some guy walk away with 25,000 dollars in their pocket without an elk. This is what causes the elk to be placed in small pens, even if 100 acres one could easily find such an elk. They are not wild elk by any measure and do not have a fear of humans. I would not doubt if one could walk up to this elk and it wouldnt run away. These elk have for most of their lives been exposed to humans on a personnal level and are not raised to be fearful of humans. It just doesnt work that way. The well run farms have catologues, even videos sometimes of these elk they are selling, and one can pay for their elk well before they even arrive in camp. This is the farthest thing from hunting yet still killing animals one can possibly get.

To not be fooled by Atkinson into think these types of places do not exist in Texas. Such as large state as he so elequently pointed out is widely known for exotic game hunting and ranching. While some of these hunts are fair chase, yes, the offer he gave does not give any evidence to that and JDS gave no mention of it being fair chase. If it was fair chase he would not have posted he doesnt want to get into a fight over it. Its really obvious exactly what this hunt is, and its not fair chase.

As I said above, I am sorry that you all had to read what I wrote, but I have no pity for those who support these operations in any way. They are a slap in the face to all ethical hunters and put the non-hunting community even further away from giving us dearly needed support, and as I said they are the reason for many diseases in wild game such as Chronic Wasting Disease.

I hope in these last few posts my point has come across in a more gentlemanly manner...

Again, I thank you all.

Buell

I thought you were not going to post to me anymore you little twit??? that would suit me fine as you have never had much to say worth listening to...but you never did ask Gatogordo what size the ranch is, you just took it for granted that it was small and didn't come up to your self styled criteria wich is all knowing in your opinion...

I said I do not know of such places as have been described, I don't associate with such places and have never hunted such places, I never said they do not exist, but as usual you try to turn everthing one states around to fit your agenda and if that does not work you call them names and refer to them as stupid, ignorant etc and all that is required to get these names called is a disagreement with you, in the same breath you say that you do not care...Sorry kid, you can't have it both ways. so, now hammer away with the 4 letter words to make your "intelligent" point.

Ray:

To clear it up, I don't own a game ranch, I just raise Longhorn cattle. And my ranch is not high fenced. I posted the comment about a canned Longhorn hunt in jest. It was JDS who posted that he had a friend with an elk for sale.

As my grandmother used to say, "Some people aren't fit company.", and Buell certainly qualifies. He is an idiot who hasn't a clue about the real world or how to interact like an adult and I am going to follow someone else's sage advice and do my absolute best to ignore his vomit in the future. And, if he ever comes to Texas, or anywhere besides in front of his darkened computer and acts like he does in here, he will shortly need some medical assistance IMO.

There is no basic difference between eating a hamburger where you are paying someone else to do your killing for you, and shooting a ranch raised elk. Neither is hunting, and both wind up with a dead pile of meat. Some people don't seem to understand that it doesn't pop out of a synthesizer in a cellophane wrapper. So what is the problem with a fenced ranch, large or small, hunt as long as the participants understand what the situation is and what is happening? No one is forcing anyone to hunt on one, indeed, quite the opposite, people pay for the priviledge.

Don't like it, don't do it.

Ray, if I read your post wrong I apologize, but that is what I got from it. What I understood is that a typical ranch in texas is very large and so its fair chase. Such as the king ranch which is bigger then some states.

No i wasnt posting to you- and I didnt say i was not going to, I asked you not to post to me. See, we can both get things wrong from each others posts.

Other then JDS I have not called anyone names on this thread. I have tried to be civilized in my posts to explain my stance on this obviously controversial topic once everyone had a brick.

I wonder how you can bash me about name calling but in your first senetence to me you call me a little twit. You sir are a hypocrite as has been the case since I first read your posts.

I dont think I have to ask what size the ranch is because it doesnt really matter. This animal can be put into a 1 acre pen even if the ranch is the King Ranch if they want to. That has no bearing on the topic.

If there wasn't something to get into a fight over as JDS posted, then there would be nothing wrong with this hunt.

Furthermore if the animal is on a 50,000 acre ranch i would still have a problem with this hunt because its not hunting. Knowing what size of animal you are going after to this degree and paying for that animal based on its size is unethical because the hunter chose the animal based on a written add. If you cant find fault with this add then you too are unethical.

To me ethical hunting is not worrying if you are going to get a good buck, whatever, taking time scouting your area and having animals that can leave at anytime they want, fences that do not contrict the animal to the point they are hindered from typical migrations which means they should not be kept from going where they normally would on there own. This hunt is far from that as is quite clear.

Ray, each time I say something I dont like you come in with the insults as you just did but have the balls to insult me with names in the first sentence. The only reason people won't say anything to you is because the wrath you throw around this site. I have met a similar person to you who told me they were going to beat the shit out of me, but they wernt because I wasnt 18 at the time. This was a few years ago. I had only met the person 2 times before, never really talked to them much, and had never had any sort of disagreement with them. After the person got to know me they said they were wrong for saying that to me. Its the type of person that is so big and throws their weight around so much no one is going to mess with them. There are so many refrences to physical violence on this site its quite appalling. I guess thats the Texas way though! Its not their fault, they dont know any better!

Anyways, have fun being a total hypocrite and phony.

Buell

Gator-

Whats wrong with this type of shooting is that 1. Its called hunting 2. The health risk to the wild population of elk and deer is high, such as CWD was bred by elk in I believe a Wyo elk farm 3. Its completely unethical and I do not wish to be called the same name as these shooters who call themselves hunters 4. It gives a bad image to the people we need politcial support from the most

Are these elk being shot only for meat? No, that is only a side benefit for these shooters. They only want the rack to brag about.

Buell

Buell,
The origin of CWD and its transmission is not certain, game farm animals may be responsible but then again they may not be. There are several hypothesis. It is irresponsible to lay blame anywhere without supporting data, but this is quite typical in most of these situations. The public perception becomes reality and the real science will be obscured.
Provide me with the DATA that conclusively proves CWD originated in captive animals.

Crtr chk-

I would like to talk to you about it through email if you dont mind. I am about to head down to down town san diego and will talk to you tomorrow.

Please do email me. I am serious!

Buell

No Buell,
We'll do it right here because I want to whoop your ass in a public forum, which I think you know I will. Your assertions on CWD are similar to your other assertions, like my preference for my Leupold binos. I based my opinion on accumulated data, that being my own experience, with the subject matter.
As I base my opinion on CWD, game farming or any other issue upon a survey of all information. It is the only responsible way to approach it.
I don't know the circumstances of the elk hunt in Texas, but I will say that if an economic gain of that magnitude can be gained from a singular animal I think it's wonderful. Know why, it doesn't require intensive use of the land and if through that activity habitat is maintained in an original state and is managed in a way that benefits other wild species that is fabulous.

Aldo Leopold once said "A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise"

Reference the value of White Rhinos in South Africa as an example, these issues go beyond your perception of what is ethical. Moreso, you haven't done enough discovery to hold an informed opinion on this particular circumstance.