I find it amazing that JDS has been attacked in this way and not ONE of his attackers has so much as bothered to ask the circumstances of the hunt.

If this elk is tethered in a corral and waiting for the "hunter" that's one thing. But to tell someone I have a big elk on my ranch, for 12K$ you can go TRY to find him that is quite another matter.

As Atkinson has tried to point out repeatedly, hunting animals behind a fence on a large spread of land really means very little. I've hunted small acreages in parts of Texas crawling with hogs and never even SEEN an animal.

In my worthless opinion, hunting animals over any form of bait is as bad or worse than hunting a fenced ranch. And I would LOVE to see some of those who criticize these fenced hunts come to Texas and try their hand at them. It just might be a very liberal education and they just might go home with nothing to show for their "fenced hunt" than a red, embarrassed face.

====================

Buell - You amaze me, lad. I have tried very hard to be nice to you. Indeed MANY members of this form have pretty much bent over backwards to try to be nice to you. Even Atkinson, whom you seem to think is such a bad person for no greater crime than disagreeing with you.

You have pretty well succeeded in convincing everyone on this website to catagorize you as a pariah. Those who did welcome your opinion and posts have certainly changed their minds about you and you have no one to thank but yourself.


If you'll forgive an old dog for presuming to give you a bit of advice: When you go off to the Coast Guard, LEAVE YOUR SMART MOUTH AT HOME.
Otherwise you're about to learn in the real world this can get you hurt real fast. The LAST thing the world needs is another smart ass. Believe me, they are 10 cents a box car full. Why sell yourself so cheap?

This is getting old.

[ 08-11-2002, 06:52: Message edited by: Nebraska ]

Hey Buell you cast the first stone and followed up with many other inflamitory statements to me to the extent of an all out attack, when I reply I'm the bad guy to you, when I disagree Im the bad guy, and so is anyone else that does not agree with your foolishness...

Well guess what? if you are going to continue your attack on me on every post you put out there, then tighten up your pants kid, I ain't casper milk toast and off come the gloves. You have to be pretty light in the shorts to be talking to people like Gatogordo and JC like that when you won't even post your name and contact numbers, much the same as Mondele, Bill Tibbe and all you guys that attack and flame..If you make that information available then I will respect you a lot more even if you do act like you do...I have my name and address, tel number out there for the world to see. why don't you? the answer is obvious.

UNLESS you conduct your posts to me in a civil and polite manner THEN I will respond in kind from now on.... Should you decide to conduct yourself in a polite and considerate manner starting now then I will again conduct myself in like manner, and never make another disparaging statement to you...It's your choice. What will it be?

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Whatever happened to "live and let live"?

I am sure most of you are no different than I am. We all tend to do things which might not appeal to others, but if these activities are within the laws, and we are not forced to participate in them - just like any discussions on these forums - why not let those who enjoy these activities get involved in them?

I do not think ethics have anything to do with it anymore. It is just what anyone of us, as an individual, will do or not.

As to giving the antis something to shout about, I really do not care what these idiots think at all. They will always find something to object to as far as hunting is concerned.

Atkinson-

The first of many posts directed at me since I got back was of total rudeness and bashing of me. Chic and I were having a discussion on rifle scopes and use of magnums. As far as I am concerned it was far from what we have today.

You insulted every european out there, you called me names right off the bat before I had said ONE WORD TO YOU. Do not try to act like you are bashing me because of what I had said to you. No.

You have continued to insult me in the same posts you bash me for insulting other people. Again, your hypocritical side is showing very bright to me.

If you can't take the heat get out the kitchen and stop trying to make people feel sorry for you if your business is harmed by YOUR actions on this site. Since I first started reading your posts several years ago you were insulting to people then just as you are now.

For me I would be a lot more discerning in who I insult on this site seeing as how you own a business. Simple. You cant have everything your way so do not plead for the empathy of our fellow AR.com posters. You are the victim of your own foolishness if you ask me.

As far as questioning your past, in all I have seen one picture of you from Africa. I would have not said one word about your phonieness if you posted more then one picture of you in Africa hunting. When you come back we never see any pictures, ever. Why is this? Furthermore when someone does question you on it you are guarenteed to insult them back and beat around the bush. I would bet money on it.

The only people you have ever been nice to are those who won't stand up to your bitterness, total lack of respect for all kinds of people, and outright astounding claims you routinely make. If they are true, good for you.

Pecos-

Just as I may not be as brash in person, mainly because I dont ascociate (sp?) with Texans, hypocrites, ect. in person. I have never lied on this site, never said anything I dont feel to be true, ect.

I am not asking anyone to respect me, ect, but I at the same time cannot respect those who sit on the sidelines while I am totally made out to be the only bad guy on this site aside from the usuals. I would love for someone else to point out what I do about Ray and those like him.

CrtrChk-

Ok, I was wrong about CWD being formed from game ranches, it was first found in a wildlife observation pen in colorado, 1967.

This is straight from the USDA website. I was wrong about it before. Thanks for making me enlighten myself!

Also from the USDA site, game ranches account for more of the cases of CWD then wild animals, and more states contain cases of CWD from ranches then they do from wild animals. The causes of CWD is a protein that is caused in some cases when animal are kept in cramp, confined areas and are not in good health. This was the reason it was bred in the pen animals in Colorado and was then spread to wild animals and game farm animals alike.

This site also mentioned that the exact cause of CWD is unknown, but they do know basically how it is transmitted. What that means is although they dont know how the prion, or abnormal protein was originally created, they do know what caused it and where it first was seen, and that is in a observation pen, basically a game farm but for scientists not ranchers.

Another topic of interest to me, quite appalling indeed, is how as a hunter you can say this type of shooting is in anyway good. Just explain this to me, please.

To all, if there was nothing wrong with this hunt or anything controversial, JDS would not have made a point to comment he didnt want to fight about it? What would there be to fight over in a proper and ethical hunt.



Buell

[ 08-11-2002, 12:45: Message edited by: Buell ]

Buell - JDS just wanted to do a friend a favor and avoid controversy and the aggravation of getting flamed by the likes of you. Turning down you degree of rhetoric and making a few apologies instead of busting everyone's balls on this board would certainly go a long ways to reestablishing your credibility. Clearly you have not (and probably not ever will) hunted a good fenced operation (YES they do exist and I can recommend several from personal experience). Until you do, you have no personal frame of reference to critcize it. As for your whining about being bashed and insulted, the way I see at least on this thread, is that you started it and used some quite ugly language to go with it. You are rapidly running out of anyone who will even talk to you even when you get civilized again.... now be good and apologize to JDS and Ray please.....

As for CWD scientists do NOT know what caused it, though the current thinking is that it mutated from Scrapie which afflicts goats and sheep. CWD did NOT originate in the USDA facility, it was recognized there first, and further testing discovered it in wild populations. Get your facts straight.

Long pig -I realize that do to buells antics he is an open target for some but please read his post again concerning cwd.He did say that cwd was first found in in the observation pen he did not say it originated there.He also did say that they did not know the exact cause of cwd.If you go off accusing people without fully reading their posts you are no better than buell.

Wow! am I the one resonsible for getting this all started? I have to say that I agree with Buell. I've argued this issue before though, and I've come to realize it is a waste of time. The only point I wanted to make, was that I found jds's post a bit of an insult to everyone on this board. Well, except for maybe the Texans. I'm curious, is anyone here interested in buying that elk? Just wondering, I would be amazed if any of us on here would be willing to pay thousands of dollars to kill a "trophy" elk just for the bragging rights. It sure is not being sold for the meat, if it was just meat you wanted you could buy a cow elk for a lot less money, I'm sure. Anyway, like I said this issue really is a waste of time, because nobody is going to change their mind one way or the other. I do feel that canned elk hunts in Texas are not as bad as the same thing in a state that actually has a wild population of elk.

Two things; Twice in the last two season I have turned down a 380 class bull once at $2000.00 I split the meat get the head and hide and once at $1500.00 no meat (I can make the call tomorrow if anyone is intrested). The other thing, I've had enough, Saeed thank you for sending the CD that I won not once but twice, things are just to intense here now. So I'm gone.

Just a couple thoughts.

The most cruel thing about canned hunts, if they are as Saeed indicates, the animal is brought to a small enclosure and killed, is the trauma the wild elk goes through being handled and caged. If the elk was born and raised incaptivity it really won't mind all the handling. The end result, being killed doesn't bother anything, but some people who for some reason figure there has to be a ritual for everything. I watched a hyena drag down a wildebeest calf and start eating the hindquarters while the calf was alive and watching itself being eaten. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a dead animal is a dead animal, how it dies is up to the killer, be it hyena or fair chase hunter. We as humans have the power to decide how everything on earth shall die, whether we as individuals decide to do it in a manner befiting fair chase ritual or having another do the hard work and we do the killing is up to that individual.

Having said all that I'm not a fenced animal hunter, but I don't see any reason to belittle and outlaw anothers idea of a sport I love. My family still raises cattle that are killed by the dozens for meat every year. Is a captive elk more worthy of being killed in a fair chase situation than a good herford beef? That is up to the individual to decide.

Peter

Stubblejumper,
You might want to reread what Buell said.

"Do not also forget that most of the diseases in wild elk come from these game farms. This is because the captive elk are commonly held in tighter confines and for other reasons, but I believe it was CWD that game from a game farm."

I suspect that "game" was a typo for came.

Chic-

I had originally posted that it came from a game farm. I looked at several government sites last night and they all said the same thing, that it was first found in a observation pen in Colorado in 1967.

So I was incoorrect from saying that it came from a game farm per se, but I would imagine the conditions would be about the same in a observation pen and a game farm pen, but that is an assumption.

It is going to be interesting to see what CrtrChk is going to say.

I think the hypocricy here is just about up to my arm pits. I point out again that NONE of the flamers and "righteously indignet" here have bothered to ask JDS anything about the conditions of the hunt. But I guess no one wants the facts to get in their way. It's more fun obviously just to have a knee-jerk reaction. The word "fenced hunt" just seems to bring it out.

And the same folks who are offended by these two words think nothing of sitting in their blind over bait until their prey walks up to withing 50 yds of them before they blow his brains out.

What is the difference between paying for a "fenced hunt" and going to Africa. Most of the glorious African experiences I've read about here were nothing but glorified "fenced hunts." In fact, a guide or PH as he is called in Africa takes you out where he already knows the animals are or have been and points out the target for you, you pull the trigger and then the camp workers take over. After a photo or two it's back to camp for a toddie. I hate to tell anyone, but all the "fenced hunts" I know about in Texas are AT LEAST this difficult. On most such hunts, you will walk your ass off, sweat your ass off, be pestered by just about as many biting insects and thorn bushes and probably have a pretty good chance of getting bitten by a poisonous reptile. I strongly suspect some of the "fenced hunts" in Texas are more difficult than some of the hunts everyone thinks are such holy experiences in Africa.

There are a lot of people on this website that are mighty quick to judge anything and everyone. We will criticize someone for having a different recoil pad or scope or not shooting the same bullet we shoot. A little of this done good naturedly is great...adds a little spice to the mix. But as Saeed said, "What happened to live and let live?" I've about decided a lot of us come here to argue...not to talk guns and hunting.

Slowly, I'm learning to just ignore people who post stupid things. But it's a waste as they MIGHT have had something valuable to contribute if they had stopped trying to impress or attack someone.

Pecos-

I can assure you that I will never or ever have hunting a fenced operation I if I ever did accidentaly hunt on one, for example going to Africa and running into fences all the time, I would pack my bags and be gone.

The only thing I have ever baited is a pack of squirrel with some rolled oats.

Again, I wonder THEN what JDS was afraid of getting in a fight over? As I said above, on an ehtical hunt what is there to get in a fight over?

Obvisouly he knew THIS type of hunt is and would be controversial.

Buell

If the truth be known,CWD got its start in the wild herds. CWD is the result of game departments being to greedy,lazy and afraid to properly manage game animals. Being able to blame the private sector for spreading CWD,helps shift the blame from the state.

When you consider the wholesale cost of trophy elk and other game animals and the retail value that they generate among lazy douche bags. No game farm owner is going to allow a disease to spread through their herds. I've seen several of these zoo hunt operations in person and they have vets on hand constantly.

CWD has a much better chance of being generated in wild herds,since where else do you have state and federal management feeding and managing elk in closed areas that are over run with 10 times more animals then the land could possibly support.
On these feed grounds,you have weak animals feeding right along with healthy animals and the weak animals don't die out as quickly,because they are being supported unnaturally. After an entire winter of exposure to disease in a confined area,the elk that survive,then wander out of the refuge and across migration routes,further spreading the disease to other populations.

Blaming CWD on private wildlife management,is the wet dream of every federal and state wildlife agency. These agencies don't want to really manage wildlife,because in doing so they have to take responsibility for any failures. Now that you have CWD killing animals by the hundreds,the state and feds can blame this on private ranches,rather then the unatural enviroment that they've created in refuges and national parks.

RMK-I assume you hold several degrees and most certainly a doctorate in biology as you seem to know where cwd came from when all of the other biologists admit they really don't know for sure where it actually originated.As for cwd not being a problem in game ranches ,several infected elk were in fact discovered in a number of game ranches despite the ranchers and vets attempts to raise only disease free animals.As game ranches buy and sell animals regularly it is reasonable to assume that some of these infected animals could have exposed cwd to other animals and therefore helped spread cwd.

[ 08-11-2002, 22:21: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

You gents figure the MK is the best projectile,for such a Hunt?(grin)

Lighten up a smidge................

Buell and CritrChik.

If you are going to have a discussion about CWD, please make a new thread. I think many of us would be interested in following the details of the thread.

Stubblejumper - to lump me in with Buell is makes YOU no better than Buell. You clearly hate fences and will not change - in your case I guess it doesn't take much effort to keep a narrow mind closed anyway. As for me attacking Buell for his bad manners - well, sorry he had it coming. This has been any ugly thread nearly from the get-go, too bad. I am taking a chill pill I suggest everyone do the same.
Just for information's sake, Texas has closed its borders to any importation of cervids until further notice. I'm surprised that elk seem to be getting cheaper....

SCREW THIS THREAD AND ALL THIS BULLSHIT!

I'm going hunting.

Johan

Pecos-

No, one not wanting or accepting hunting fences areas is not idealistic, it is a must for me.

As for exotic game hunting for African animals here in the US, I think its a joke for the most part and is not represenative of African hunting. There is so much more to Africa besides the game, and no where else can the total experience of a safari be had but Africa. There are only poor imposters at best.

What would you expect to see out of going to Africa, the whole experience, and how much of that could you get in Texas?

I would care about a fence, but when they are used to make a hunt easier or to keep animals from where they would normally go, then I will not take part in it. Would you shoot an animal you had spent 2 days tracking and when you found it, it was up against a fence and you basically cornered it? I would not. I am not a greedy hunter and I do not hunt just for the sake of killing animals. I have been hunting a never got a shot off at what I wanted to and it was still a lot of fun I didnt regret it, even though I had spent a bit of money getting there, ect...

Anyways I hate to think the days gone by of fair, ethical hunters who were more then just out there to shoot animals is gone, but I fear so. I would love to see the reaction of hunters to this add from 50 years ago, or even a hundred...

I do not hunt for bragging rights nor top trophies. To me the trophy is a sucessful hunt for what I did to do my part. If I got a good buck or something I would not feel any better to take that one then a doe, but most people would. I just done care enough about horn to need them to make myself have a bigger ego.

RMK-

I hate to say I disagree with you, but dont worry I am not going to insult you!

Anyways what you said goes against everything that has been published by both scientists and biologists studying this diesease. The USDA said it was a state run observation pen that CWD was first discovered in. I researched several sites and they all said the same thing, and non of them put blame on anyone. These were all state sites or fed govt sites.

As of late I have not heard anything on a test for live animals. So far only ones that have died have been able to be tested. I heard Colorado scientists were working on a live animal test that was going to be released soon, but I have not seen anything on this.

So there really is not much state agencies can do at this point but follow patterns of the dead animals and try and track the spread of the disease. Typically symptoms occur 2-3 years AFTER the animal is first infected. This also makes it very hard to track this disease and even know which seemingly healthy animals may have it, because as I said there is not a live animal test yet, but maybe recently one has been introduced, but it would have had to have been very recent.

It is the same reason why in England they had to kill whole heards of animals at a time even though not all of them are infected. They dont have a way to tell until the animal shows sign of the illness, which takes many years, and they cannot test lives animals, so I dont think its right to put blame on anyone for this just yet.

Even with a live animal test who is going to test the millions of animals, and who is going to pay for it? It would take monumental changes and costs to even begin such a task.

[ 08-11-2002, 23:31: Message edited by: Buell ]

Buell,
If you bump into a fence then you pack and go home???

By your own posts you hunt on a 200 acre fenced farm. Does that not ruin your "wilderness experience" especially when the neighbors ring the dinner bell??? You certainly are contridictory....

Long pig-Buell deserves to be attacted for many things but what I did was point out that you did not fully read his post or you would have seen that in this case he was right about a couple of points where you accused him of being wrong.I would assume you attacked him because he was buell but going off half cocked and misquoting him is the kind of thing he is always being blamed for hence my comparison.As to my feelings on fenced hunts-If you pick an animal raised in captivity out of a catalogue and are guaranteed to take it home would you feel proud to put it on your wall?This is a lot different than buying a hunt from an outfitterwhere you are taken to a good area with a decent population of wild animals and given a reasonable chance at taking a good animal but are by no means guaranteed any animal let alone a specific bull.

[ 08-11-2002, 23:43: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

I think if a Gent is willing to ante up the 12K or whatever it is and harvest the Bull in question,by legal means,it is his call(only)on the merits of the "Hunt".

Personally,it isn't for me,but it is none of my business to begrudge the man that feels differently and accepts the offer.

No big deal................

I have never said I hunt on a fenced farm. My uncles property in Mich is about 350 acres or so, and it is not fenced on any sides, the deer can go freely anywhere they want to, leave anytime they want to, and I do not bait them. The only thing fenced is my aunts garden which is 10x15...

There is nothing canned about my hunting...

I also did not say if I see A fence I will go home, but if I routinely run into them and get the feely something is not right about the hunt, then no I will not hunt on it.

I recall you accidentaly going onto a canned styled hunt in Africa once, and you were not happy as I recall... I would feel the same way...

There is also only one other home nearby, but the other sides have nothing on them.

Where did you get I hunt on a FENCED farm?

WOW! I'm off the computer for a day or so and all h**l breaks loose!

Buell . . . I'm really sorry that I tinkled in your Post Toasties!! You really should not take things so seriously or the stress will take you to an early grave!

OK sports fans . . . I apologize for this mess! This is NOT my elk . . . I am NOT in the game ranch business . . . and I am NOT making any money off of this deal. I have a friend that has him and doesn't want him anymore. I don't know how big the ranch is and really don't care.

I put the disclamer in my original post because even though a very large amount of hunting in Texas is on game ranches, I know that some folks don't like that. I respect that view and Buell, just because you have that view I will not use profanity against you as you did me. That was uncalled for.

Anyone who does not want an elk off a game ranch need not take him. What's so hard about that?

If you don't like game ranches that's OK. But you do need to realize that they exist and will continue to exist. Get over it!

Thanks, Buffalobwana, for standing up for me!

I think I'll go back over the the African Hunting formus where we can argue about important stuff like "will a 45/70 kill a buffalo?".

Ya'll have a great day!

Oh, and Buell . . . you might just want to pick your wards carefully in public if you do come to Texas - especially if I happen to be on duty at the time!

Take care!

JDS

I as many others are also still waiting for her response.I am interested in what she has to say as I find the cwd issue to be of great concern to all hunters.And with buell involved it could be quite entertaining.

So buell what happened to all of the animals in these state and federal obsevaton sites? Did all of the animals eventually die from CWD? Did some survive and were later released back to the wild,after they were deamed safe?

Saeed,
You ask the question of why someone would hunt this way and conveniance comes to mind.
The following site is a high fence operation about 2 hours from me that is offering a 6x6 elk this fall for 3250.00 first come first served.

http://www.whiteoakhunting.com/

They are primarily and Hog and Exotics operation but have started sellong Whitetail also.
Notice in their web page the amount of land is "hundreds and hundreds of acres and the Whitetail hunt takes place on 300 acres. This tells me there are several different enclosures with different animals in them.
As I said conveniance is a prime factor as a businessman who claims to be a hunter but can't take the 1 1/2 weeks to 2 weeks to hunt Elk out west can hunt 2 hours from home for 1/2 the price all things considered(Travel - air fare and rental car) Lodging and trophy and meat transportation fees .....

Is this a recomendation of the place - NO, only 1 such operation I am personally aware of and have watched over the years. There are a couple more but this is a long time ranch in central Ohio.

Greg

I don't much care about the big elk hunt; doesn't concern me and I don't know a thing about it.

I work in animal agriculture, and if my memory is correct, if you did some reading from credible sources on Chronic Wasting Disease you would see that it has been around the world in several species of animals for a long time. Not necessarily anything new. Like hoof and mouth disease that caused such an uproar last year or so...there have been small outbreaks of that all over the world for years, but we get more scared when it is in Great Britain (as opposed to Asia or South America where it has shown up now and then without media fanfare). We are just more scared of stuff like this these days. CWD is still worthy of concern, to be sure.

It is not a genetic disorder, so it was not 'bred' on a farm. If it has spread from a game farm, that could be good news...might give us a chance to track its course better if such operations identify their animals.

Big Stick,
I agree completely! The .338 with heavy MatchKings would definately get the nod!

This kind of thread is a lot of crap splattered on an interesting issue. It's one thing to discuss an issue like CWD or ethics. It is entirely different when it's just flaming going on. So I guess these types are real flamers! heh heh !

PAndy,

While CWD, as a Prion based disease (frighteningly unkillable since prions aren't really alive and don't have DNA), was not "bred" on game farms it is quite likely to have originated there as evinced by its resemblance to mad cow and the human equivalent, Creutzfeldt Jakob Disease (CJD).
Historically, CJD had been observed most commonly in what were formerly ritualistically cannibalistic cultures where the remains of elders (including nervous system tissues) were consumed by members of the tribe. When the cannibalism was curtailed, so was the disease. Not surprisingly, Mad cow came to be as a result of protien supplements fed to british cattle. These protien supplements were manufactured using the tissues of dead sheep infected with a similar rogue protien causing a well-known disease called Scrapie (Scrapie is known to have existed for centuries but never crossed the species barrier until man started trying to build bigger and cheaper cattle). Now, what seems more likely, that the deer and elk in the U.S. got this random and very recent urge to eat the nervous systems of infected animals they found in the field OR that game ranchers were supplementing the feed of their trophy bulls with rogue protien infected stuff trying to grow bigger antlers for their clients willing to pay $12K US to shoot a Record book elk in what is likely a relatively small enclosure. Seems to me that this is nature's not so subtle way of telling us that herbivores shouldn't eat meat and large carnivores shouldn't eat their own species!

Now, like I have said before on other threads, if some guy wants to whack a big bull in an area the size of a phone booth, I don't really care (although I find it instinctively distasteful) BUT when the actions leading up to that event start impacting the wildlife that I hunt elsewhere and start reducing the possibility that my children and grandchildren will ever get to know what a venison tenderloin tastes like, I GOT ISSUES WITH IT!

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

[ 08-12-2002, 21:24: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

Fencing and boundries should have nothing to do with an intelligent conversation, even the great Selous has boundries, croc filled waters and country lines, park lines, some parks are fenced, some Ranches and parks are fenced to stop poaching. the whole world has boundries.

The question here should be: IS THE HUNT FAIR CHACE, IS IT LEGAL..imho that clears up a lot of issures being addressed here and going nowhere, and in many cases throughly misunderstood, much the same as baiting, blind hunting and night shooting......

Some of these hunting methods I do not do, such as night hunting and baiting, but I certainly don't set my self up as final judgment of all who do, it is legal, moral and it is their God given right by nature and the law to do so. I see nothing wrong with it, just don't like it for myself, mostly because I like to move around and I like to sleep at night. I blind hunt whitetail but I really don't care for it, but there is no other way where I blind hunt....

Make that "CHASE" not "CHACE" before the picky poos get hold of it......Jeeez Louisssse, its getting bad around here. Don't forget to dot your I's and cross your T's, must not do that...