I found this article on another forum and thought that it might inspire a bit of discussion!

The Perfect Deer Rifle
By Mike Moen


There is something about human nature that makes people appreciate perfection. A Major League pitcher captures the headlines when he pitches a perfect game. A first grader who answers all of her math questions correctly is rewarded with a big star on top of her test. Even the local bartender is sometimes held in high regards for producing the perfect martini. Why should it be any different when it comes to deer rifles? Through the years gallons of ink have been spilled by writers discussing this matter. Some followed the lead of Jack O'Connor who favored smaller calibers that tossed bullets at breakneck speeds. Others found themselves in the Elmer Keith camp favoring large calibers with heavy bullets and large wound channels. With the vast experience that these two men had, it is obvious that both knew what they were talking about, and both were right. In fact, there are very few poor deer rifles. If someone really wanted to, they could spend their entire hunting career shooting at mulies and whitetails with a 375 H+H and probably never be disappointed. The same could be said for a 243 Winchester, which lies on the other end of the spectrum. However, not many people would view either of these guns as "perfect" for deer.

The first step in building the perfect rifle is to decide what the gun will look like. While levers, pumps, and semi-auto loaders have their place, few would disagree that the bolt action is king. Overall the bolt action is more accurate, and is available in more factory rifles than all the others combined. Where I hunt in northern Minnesota, the lever action 30-30 has always been one of the most popular choices for folks heading to their deer stands. With most shots held under 100 yards by the thick vegetation, a lever gun shooting flat nosed bullets is plenty good for dropping deer in their tracks. That same gun, however, might feel a little outmatched trying to reach across 300 yards of Wyoming prairie after a distant mule deer. A bolt action rifle would be at home under both conditions.

Barrel length is also something that needs to be considered. A short barrel tends to be more maneuverable and can result in a quicker shot in heavy brush at running game. Short barreled guns are also usually lighter, which can be a blessing if hunting in rugged or steep country. The payoff, though, is a loss of velocity and stability. A lighter gun can make it harder to hold the cross hairs steady, and the difference in velocity for some guns can be over 50 feet/second for each inch of barrel lost. A rifle wearing a 26" spout will generally give out higher velocities, but may make snap offhand shooting a chore. When talking about deer rifles, I feel that a 22" barrel is a good compromise. A barrel of this length will utilize most of the ballistic potential of any of the popular deer rifle chambering, and will still slide nicely through the trees.

So let's see, so far we have a bolt action wearing a 22" barrel. The next step is to figure out what round our perfect deer rifle will be chambered for. This is probably the topic that gets the most attention, and has sparked the most campfire arguments. Personal favorites can run the spectrum from the light 250 Savage or 243 Winchester, all the way up to the various supercharged 30 caliber magnums and beyond. Across the country the 30-06 is probably still the most commonly used round for harvesting deer, and there is little doubt that it is a very effective deer round, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think it's the perfect chambering for a deer rifle. It's just a little more punch than what's needed. Why should someone put up with useless recoil when there are other rounds that will get the job done with less punishment to our shoulders? Staying in the 30 caliber family and taking a step down is the 308 Winchester which is an excellent choice for deer. Mated with a 165 grain bullet and a muzzle velocity around 2700 feet/sec, it is a great choice for any deer hunting out to most sane distances. It also has the benefit of numerous factory loadings, and finding a load that shoots well is usually not a problem.

An argument can also be made for going smaller by looking at a couple of 25 caliber rounds. The 25-06, which is a former wildcat based on the 30-06 case and made legit by Remington, has gained a reputation as the perfect antelope round, but the characteristics that make it great for pronghorn also make it great for deer hunting. With a 100 or 115 grain bullet flying along a string tight trajectory, it produces deadly results out to long ranges, but has very mild recoil when compared to larger calibers. It is also a fairly popular round so is offered in quite a few factory loadings. The other 25 caliber is the antique 257 Roberts. Even though this round has been with us for many years, it has consistently proven itself a deer slayer. Jack O'Connor was a fan of the Bob, and in the gun world, there is no larger endorsement than that. While the 257 Roberts doesn't have the speed of some of the other rounds, it still carries plenty of punch for deer out to at least 250 yards, and does so with pleasant recoil. The drawback to this round is that finding rifles chambered for it can be tough. There are only a few factory rifles available now that carry the Roberts, and factory ammo is limited, but if you can find a gun chambered for the Bob and especially if you hand load, the 257 Roberts would be a great choice.

For my perfect deer rifle though, I would probably choose a 7mm-08 Remington. This round came about by necking down a 308 Winchester case to accept 7mm bullets. When it comes to deer hunting, this round offers everything a person needs. The trajectory is flat enough to be effective for long range shooting out west, and with a 140 grain bullet is still carrying around 1500 ft/lbs at 300 yards, which is more than enough to take care of any deer. At the same time, it's not too overpowering up close at woods ranges like some of the larger 7's and 30 calibers tend to be. It does everything that some of the more powerful rounds can do, but with its mild recoil in most guns, it won't kick you like a mule. With the popularity of this round, finding a rifle chambered for it is not a problem, and there is a good variety of factory ammunition to choose from if you're not hand loading. Now if you are a 270 Winchester fan, you're probably shaking your head and wondering how I could ever pick another round over Jack O'Connor's favorite. Well, I will admit that the 270 is a great round but when only talking about deer hunting, I stand by my choice of the 7mm-08. To me it just seems perfect.

So there we have it, a bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel chambered for the 7mm-08 Remington. My version of the perfect deer rifle for hunting across the country. With this rifle a person could chase deer from the depths of a south Georgia swamp all the way to the peaks of a Montana mountain range and never skip a beat. Sure, there are a lot of other guns that could do the same thing, but in my opinion, they wouldn't be perfect.

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ronz commentz - i own a 7x57, which is pretty much the ballistic twin of the 7/08, and must say taht it is a very capable deer round which will perform under nearly all circumstances!

a few years ago, jim carmicheal took this issue on, and settled on the 6.5/08, oherwise known as the .260 remington. i don't have much use for ol' jim, but i always remembered that article......

i am currently on the verge of beginning a 6.5 project, but instead of the .308 case it will be based on the /06 case. a little more powder plus the ability to seat heavier bullets.

Hard to argue that a 7mm-08 isn't a very good deer rifle. But we really aren't limited to just one gun. So I can drag out my lever action 30-30 to hunt thick woods and use my 7mm Rem Mag to hunt Mulies that may be 300+ away.

I'd agree that it is nice to have the extra range and even in the compromise gun I'd rather have the 30-06 or the 270 than the 7mm-08.

I always thought the semi-auto 30-06 was a better solution to short quick and capable of long range as well as mild recoil and the ever popular quick 2nd shot if needed.

Interesting article, lot of good points. My personal "perfect" deer rifle is the .270- 60.0 grains of 4831 behind a 130 TSX and a 24" tube w/3x-9x50mm. I hunt whitetails on the Palouse and shots can be 20 yards (as in last November)or 450 yards.

This topic will be debated for millennia. Being that it is M-Day- thanks to all of those who provided us the freedom and continued opportunity to debate such (in the grand spectrum of things) a trivial topic!

IV

My current perfect deer rifle is the .280 Remington. Another .284 round with a bit more reach. Oh and my last favorite deer rifle was a .270! The only reason it fell to #2 was because the .280 is new.

quote:

For my perfect deer rifle though, I would probably choose a 7mm-08 Remington.

But of course, didn't you know? The only thing to add is that the rifle ought to be made by Sako!

I agree, this will be going on for ever (and we will probably not be able to agree over that either).

Regards,
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
Interesting article, lot of good points. My personal "perfect" deer rifle is the .270- 60.0 grains of 4831 behind a 130 TSX and a 24" tube w/3x-9x50mm.

Almost the same setup for me. But I use Re19. Are you using H4831 or IMR4831?

I think the .270 Win is the perfect deer rifle. 7-08 is excellent.

I also hunted whitetails on the Palouse in Idaho. 40 years ago, mind you! I lived in Harvard then. At that time I used a 303 British and it was a perfect whitetail rifle. Just like a 308, 7mm-08, 284, 7x57, 8x57, and numerous others would be today.
Friends I hunted with used 30/06's, 270's, and 308's. My uncle used either a 30/06 or a 270 Gibbs. He and I were the only ones who handloaded.
Today, I use the same rifle but with a 30/40 barrel on it or a 7mm-08 built on a mauser. Just as in the past, they kill well when I make a good shot and not quite so well when I make a poor one (Yes, I do occasionally make a poor shot). I feel that cartridges in this class are ideal simply because they are so reliable. Velocities are such that conventional bullets perform perfectly and there are seldom any surprises. Regards, Bill.

Doc: I use H4831 as temps here in October can be 20 degrees on opening morning or as high as 95 degrees as was the case in 2003. I have never tested Hodgdon's claim regarding the temperature coating but it seems to make sense.

I agree with you about TSX, I have no desire or need to convince anyone else that they are the best bullet made- bar none; but I prefer them over anything in any situation save varmints or DG (which I have never hunted) I have seen nothing but 'perfect' performance from them in whitetails, mule deer, elk etc. Maybe I am just lucky but I'd rather be lucky than good any day....

IV

quote:

few would disagree that the bolt action is king.

I do.

This will no doubt spark a lot of discussion, "full of sound an fury, signifying nothing." There is no perfect deer rifle. Not for the world, the US, your state or even your county. What works is one person that knows his choice and limits. Take that person out of known surroundings and it's a new deal, jokers wild.

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
Doc: I use H4831 as temps here in October can be 20 degrees on opening morning or as high as 95 degrees as was the case in 2003. I have never tested Hodgdon's claim regarding the temperature coating but it seems to make sense.

I agree with you about TSX, I have no desire or need to convince anyone else that they are the best bullet made- bar none; but I prefer them over anything in any situation save varmints or DG (which I have never hunted) I have seen nothing but 'perfect' performance from them in whitetails, mule deer, elk etc. Maybe I am just lucky but I'd rather be lucky than good any day....

IV

I certainly hate to bother you but would that be H4831 or H4831SC? I have never tested it but I'm told they do burn slightly different. I have tons of the SC and love it.

FWIW, I have loaded up here in Ohio and taken it to Colorado with a MAJOR temp and barometric difference and noticed NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever while using Alliant Reloader powders, which are supposedly known for their temp sensitivity. Therefore, I trust that Hodgdon is a damn near perfect powder.

That is interesting seeing as my next rifle is most likely going to be a Savage 11FL in 7mm-08. I guess I have this guy's blessing!

quote:

A rifle wearing a 26" spout will generally give out higher velocities, but may make snap offhand shooting a chore.

The key word for being able to make “snap offhand shots†is, PRACTICE. As for “The Perfect Deer Rifle†it doesn’t exist. What works in one area doesn’t work in another. What fits one mans wants/needs doesn’t fit another. Lawdog

Deciding on a perfect deer rifle is easy, Ive got an entire collection of them. It would be easier to name the chamberings that are not so good for deer.

Quite a while ago there was another thread like this one, the general consensus was that it is hard to beat the 270 Win. But there are a multitude of chamberings that will do anything that it will where deer are concerned, nothing wrong with shooting 150 gn slugs from an 06 at deer which closley duplicates the 270.

The "perfect deer rifle" is the one that makes you feel warm an fuzzy.. Im kind of partial to my 257 AI, but wouldnt hesitate to use any gun I own for deer (with the exception of the .22 cals).

I would also throw in a plug for the various 6.5 cals, (X55, 260, 6.5/284) I think they make outstanding deer medicine.

DOC: I have used both and see no difference but I weigh every charge (so no real need for the SC) and find that H4831 is more readily available than H4831sc.

On a different note I am developing a load with Retumbo (104.5 grains) using 225 TSX in my 338 RUM- it will be intersting to see if any difference is obtainable in a 26" barrel with that weight bullet as compared to the same using H1000. We have an early cow elk season that opens August 1.

IV

Well, let us know how the load turns out. You might consider Re25 as well. I have 4 premium loads in my 300 RUM with 4 bullets and 2 powders: Re25 and Retumbo.

The bullets are 180 Scirocco, 180 TSX, 200 Accubond, and 168 TSX. The barrel is a 28" Shilen #4 and I have found that it takes less powder in that bore to get great velocities.

There is no perfect deer gun, if there was we would have no need for discussion forums.

I'm not sure there is such a thing, but it would be something between a .250AI & a .280AI. The rifle would weigh in about 7 1/4# ready to hunt, wood or syn. stock, hunters preference. I have mine, my M70 in .280rem. Anything bigger isn't really need or desired for deer & antelope.

I get the impression that the writer likes his 22" bolt action 7-08 for a lot of other reasons, but wrote the article to make it sound like he had really thought it out. I read a Bob Milek article like that one time. Bob went into great and interesting detail about his reasons and his choices, but he still ended up with a short, light 30-06 in a beautifully striped piece of walnut on a 1909 Argentine action.

Whatever it takes, I guess.


Okie John

I have trouble swallowing the barrel length argument. If 2" or even 4" makes a difference in maneuverability in the brush, then its too thick to to be making responsible snap shots at running game (IMO) because of the potential for bullet deflection. I concede a shorter barrel slings better in brush though.

Since I've seen nice and light Rem 7600s that shoot so well, one in .30-06, or a Win M88 in .284 with crisp triggers would get my vote. These rifles can deliver sufficient accuracy far enough downrange where the 7-08 is getting marginal energy-wise, and give up nothing in speed for those "shots at running game in heavy brush". And if one argues that perfection includes pulling occasional duty for elk and moose (which are deer after all) the 7-08 starts lagging IMO. I cannot say a moose hunter with 140gr. TSX or other "super-bullet" in the 7-08 is unarmed though.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
Doc: I use H4831 as temps here in October can be 20 degrees on opening morning or as high as 95 degrees as was the case in 2003. I have never tested Hodgdon's claim regarding the temperature coating but it seems to make sense.

I agree with you about TSX, I have no desire or need to convince anyone else that they are the best bullet made- bar none; but I prefer them over anything in any situation save varmints or DG (which I have never hunted) I have seen nothing but 'perfect' performance from them in whitetails, mule deer, elk etc. Maybe I am just lucky but I'd rather be lucky than good any day....

IV

I certainly hate to bother you but would that be H4831 or H4831SC? I have never tested it but I'm told they do burn slightly different. I have tons of the SC and love it.

FWIW, I have loaded up here in Ohio and taken it to Colorado with a MAJOR temp and barometric difference and noticed NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever while using Alliant Reloader powders, which are supposedly known for their temp sensitivity. Therefore, I trust that Hodgdon is a damn near perfect powder.

Well, John Barsness noticed RL22 and 25 were pretty temperature senstive.

I seem to prefer the rifle that has a large buck in it's sights.

My personal "perfect" deer rifle is a .300 Win. Mag. loaded with 180 gr. Nosler Partitions at 3000 + fps. I really haven't found anything that works better, no matter if I'm hunting mule deer up here, whitetails in Texas, or desert mule deer and Coues deer in Mexico.

Some guys are bound to think it's 'too big', but for the life of me, I haven't seen how this is so.........

AD

Allen
From the narrow perspective of a PA deer hunter I would say your choice kicks a bit much for safe use in a tree stand. Other than that it is tough to beat.

Mikelravy,

That's what safety harnesses are for.

And the BLR in .300 Win is perfect for those quick follow-ups while one dangles, getting smacked around sort of like a pinata.

Seriously, I think in a decent weight rifle the .300 would not be a problem unless one was already in a strained or off-balance shooting position.

I used to use a 7mm mag and a 338 and never got knocked out of the tree. I'm getting too old to bounce though so now I mostly avoid tree stands. There must be almost as many perfect deer rifles as ther are deer hunters.