Click on this link: WorldRecordElk?

The Way that picture was taken would make any Bull Look huge.

That is a darn fine Bull but, I think the picture is decieving.

I doubt he even scores 400. Regardless, He's still a heck of a nice bull!

Reloader

It's a really good bull, but I also don't think it makes world record. I've seen the John Plute Bull in Crested Butte, Colorado which stood as the world record for almost 80 years and it's length of antler, length of points and overall mass outclass this elk.

Also, since every inch of Texas is private you would never be able to tell if the elk is an actual wild elk. As is noted in the story, there is nothing to stop a rancher from raising a big bull in a pen and loading him up to be shipped off to be hunted.

I would imagine that the final ruling for elk in Texas will be fairly close to the ruling currently on the books for Bison. If it isn't recognized by the state and managed as a big game species and licensed as such they probably wont recognize it for record purposes. This keeps someone from raising a huge Bull Bison (or elk) and then just killing it for the score.
Not recognized as a game animal, not recognized as a record.

A lot of the whitetails in Texas are also not eligible for the record book because they are fenced in and fed supliments. The record book has always and should always only recognize true free range game. This became such a problem with SCI that they now have seperate categories for game not considered free range.

And since this head has not yet been officially scored as noted in the story, the World Record still stands as the Alonzo White bull from Arizona, followed closely by the John Plute bull from Colorado.

Mac

Do they call the spaces between the high fenceed areas low fences in Texas?

That state is like a big petting zoo. Maybe they shouldn't accept anything there as being "free range" therefore, would not be eligible for B&C...not like that really matters anyhow unless you are into getting your name in print.


That is a nice bull.
MG

Amen Madgoat!!! Well put!

Hunting with lots of money behind fences is not hunting.It does not test your skills as a hunter.If hunting all ends up behind fences then the true art of hunting is lost.It is the stalk,the sitting in the stand ,looking for rubs,scrapes and tracks that is the art of hunting.It is not how many trophies that I judge a hunter by .Its how many others that he has taught the art of hunting.My father didnt have anyone to teach him about deer huntin g he learned it through trail and error.He taught over a hundred other hunters both kids and adults how to hunt.The shooting of a genetically breed animal that can not get away by its own will is not hunting .Teddy Roosevelt saved the lands and animals for us .He wanted all hunters to have a chance both rich and poor .He didnt want hunting to turn into a game of the rich to see who could shoot the biggest penned animals and fill their trophy rooms with these animals too boost this persons ego.He wanted the instinct of hunting to stay alive in us so that hunting will survive.Its not the trophies on the wall that will matter when your gone.Its the hunters in the field that you taught and memories left behind that will make you smile from the great hunting grounds in the sky.

That bull is legit, it was killed on a low fence ranch in Texas. The elk there are free-ranging. I have talked with friends that have seen the bull and say that the picture does not do it justice. There is no elk season in Texas and it is considered an exotic, thats why it wont be accepted into the record book. As for the space between high fences, Texas is a HUGE state, the area where this elk was killed has some damn big ranches and it would not be feasible to fence a lot of them.

Drum

Madgoat, come on down to Texas and see how many of our whitetails and exotics you can pet! Ever been here? I didn't think so...

It might be enlightening for you to know that most places here have cattle on them, along with the deer and exotics (as well as untold numbers of feral pigs), and that is the reason for the fencing. Not the "game proof" fencing (what a misnomer), just the normal five and six strand barbed wire found around most places. And it is there for a reason: try keeping a 2000# Charolais, Hereford, Chianina, Angus, or ________ bull inside a pasture when there is a heifer in estrus on the place next door.

A lot of the places here in Texas are cross-fenced to keep the bulls separate from the cows and heifers, but I guess that isn't allowed, either, is it?

And if you think a ten-foot fence will keep a whitetail inside it, think again. He will find a hole dug by a feral pig and go under the fence in a heartbeat, if he wants to.

I in no way condone hunting behind high fences, but to talk about something you have little knowledge of is irresponsible. And there is a fair amount of fenced property in Wyoming as well. I know, because I have been there.

Some posters on this thread sure don't know much about Texas.
I too would be very suspicious on the "record" elk, but otherwise there is ranch after ranch, 500 to 50,000 acres, with standard barb wire fencing. Maybe some would consider that "not free range", but the deer do.

And I also think high fencing is the wrong way to go, and will be a hot topic for years to come (landowner rights being just that).

That bull will go over 400. He does lose a little by not being very wide.

edit: well, I just hit the link and I could have saved a post!


Tim

I've been to Texas...unfortunately...I didn't like it much.

This is just my opinion, Texas is the biggest joke in the hunting world. You can hunt any freaking thing you want (whether it is from N. America, Asia, Africa, etc) if you have enough coin, I'm sure it is running around there someplace! And probably on sale!! Whether it is high fence or not, 90% of the cloven hoofed animals running around are not native! It is nothing more than hunting in a giant zoo, high fence or not.

Enjoy your safari at the animal park.

MG

Madgoat

Do you hunt pheasant? How long does an animal need to be here to be huntable?

you need to hunt free ranging aoudad in the davis mts.non native but one of the most chalenging n.american hunts

Just ignore Goat. He is better than everyone else. He is never wrong and His way is the only way.

I've lived and hunted in Texas on and off since 1970; twenty-three years to be exact. I've shot more game during that time than most; in West Texas primarily, but south and central also. Unless someone comes forward with a lot more detail on that elk and how / where (exactly) it was shot, I suspect it is a bullshit "record" possibility. My opinion is record books should be closed for good. High fences and game farms have ruined the record book. They were only created to make the hunter feel important, feed his ego. If that's what you need get a life.

If anyone implied that high fences were created to keep domestic stock in, that is also a bullshit theory.

While going to rigs I've driven within three feet of exotics as they sat there chewing their cud. Within ten feet of an oryx. So those scenarios also exist, but Texas is a big place, and quality hunting absolutely exists, particularly out west.

quote:

That state is like a big petting zoo.

To put it kindly you are an ignorant S.O.B.
I'll include Hank as well.

You're right M16, I should have taken the word "petting" out of that quote.

Just what I would expect from a Texan....

MG

From the accompanying article, it is clear that the elk was killed in a "fair chase" hunt, at least insofar as that term is commonly accepted.

The heart of the contraversy seems to center on whether elk is a game animal in Texas.

Cougers (mountain lions, pumas, whatever you wish to call them) are not classified as game animals in Texas. Yet they are indigenous, totally free ranging, and not transpanted or stocked. Just because their hunting is not regulated by the state, would a Texas couger be disqualified from record book status?

By the same token, farm-raised elk can and do escape into the wild in states like CO, WY, and MT. Should an escaped bull shot on unfenced public land in Colorado 7 years after its escape be disqualified from the records? And absent conclusive physical evidence such as an ear tag or implanted chip, how would anyone know? Will exisiting record holders challenge any new potential record by theorizing that it was, for some finite period of time, contained within an enclosure from which it could not readily exit?

Besides, most of the elk throughout the Western United States originated from elk stocked from the Yellowstone herd. So is any elk that is decended from a once-captive animal disqualfied?

I happen to have seen wild elk in the Trans Pecos (far West Texas). They are in an environment as wild and remote as any in North America, and much closer to their Pliestocene origins than the montane environment into which the pressures of European settlement pushed them.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
That bull is legit, it was killed on a low fence ranch in Texas. The elk there are free-ranging. I have talked with friends that have seen the bull and say that the picture does not do it justice. There is no elk season in Texas and it is considered an exotic, thats why it wont be accepted into the record book. As for the space between high fences, Texas is a HUGE state, the area where this elk was killed has some damn big ranches and it would not be feasible to fence a lot of them.

Drum

Fact.

Friends in Van Horn and Midland/Odessa say as much and Elk are a growin in Tx. I hope to live to see Elk in Tx. become like Co. and elsewheres, too.

But, sh*it in one hand and dream in the other and see which fills up the quickest. If any State can do it, TEXAS can.

Drum, was this the one that was offered for 70k$? Do you recall?

DB

MAC wrote:

quote:

Also, since every inch of Texas is private you would never be able to tell if the elk is an actual wild elk

MAC-You'd better re-check your information, because it is dead wrong. I've been hunting and applying to hunt public land in Texas for years.

Madgoat and Hank-I am just thankful that your type will never set foot or reside in Texas. The average IQ would drop quite a few points...

But I'd wager if a freebie hunt came available, those naysayers would be the first in line -- hypocritical just like the idiot Baldwin. He swore that if Bush would be elected, he would absolutely, positively leave the country. But he got cold feet and shut his mouth when push came to shove...

Sorry Texas, the truth hurts doesn't it? Frankly it sickens me to see what you all have turned your state into. A hunting freak show where $$ rules, BC score is an indication of your wallet size, and the hunt of the day is after a circus animal. You can't look at your wildlife wonder, is that a wild deer, or one from my neighbors herd that escaped??

In Wyoming we have a law against the private ownership of any wildlife. We have no "high" fences or canned type hunts. We don't have to hunt over feeders, or use roads as shooting lanes. It is all natural here folks...

Frankly I could care less about TX. You won't ever find me down there!!

MG

Madgoat,

Some of your observations about Texas are correct...not all of them. What got a burr under your saddle? Wyoming does have some fine hunting..so does Texas. Not all hunting in TX is done over feeders or on senderos. Most folks I've had the pleasure of meeting from your state seem to be fine people...what happened to you? Oh well, TX has some token horses a$$es also.

I have a number of friends from Wyoming. I am delighted to say NONE of them act like Madgoat. He MUST be a transplant...

quote:

Madgoat,

Some of your observations about Texas are correct...not all of them. What got a burr under your saddle?

I think one of those Texas hill country sheepherders came through Wyoming and ran off with Madgoats favorite nanny. No wonder he's a "mad goat"

Madgoat, I think the "emoticon" at the end of your posts says it all very succinctly... You are showing your hindquarters, and your ignorance.

"Those who are all wrapped up in themselves make awfully small packages."

quote:

In Wyoming we have a law against the private ownership of any wildlife. We have no "high" fences or canned type hunts. We don't have to hunt over feeders, or use roads as shooting lanes. It is all natural here folks...

Your only half right, Wyoming does have a law but there is a ranch that is high fenced for hunting in your state, its the NX Bar up near Sheridan. You should check your facts before making statements like the one above.

Your ignorance amazes me! I take it you have never hunted west TX, it is some of the most rugged country in the lower 48. Hell, I've guided in your state for a number of years and have yet to find a place as nasty as some of the places I have been in TX. I am not trying to make a comparison between the states because WY is one of my favorite places in the world to hunt. Your logic is so backwards its not even funny. Saying that all of TX is like a petting zoo because of high fenced ranches is like saying that all of the residents of California are gay because of San Francisco.

I personally thnk that your just trying your best to be a dick and just stirring the pot to get under a few folks skin.


Drum

M16, I might be a son of a bitch, but I am not ignorant about Texas' hunting...They simply are not as wild as our Georgia (or most other states) whitetails. Sorry, but it's true. If I was wrong, you would not continue to see show after show from whatever ranch in Texas, or the multitude of fenced operations in the North. Sure, the deer are big in those places, as they are here in Southwest Georgia....just easier to kill there. My friends last hunt there this fall states my case: The ranch manager drove him to his stand in the pickup truck...driving straight down a particular sendero...drove right up to the stand, dropped him off. Upon leaving, the manager turned on the "spreader" on the back of his truck throwing corn everywhere as his truck exited. Hearing the shelled corn hit the spreader and side of the truck, the deer magically appeared in the sendero...the truck, put putting along at, oh, 3 mph, had to weave around the deer, just like we do when we are feeding our cattle to avoid bumping into them. Come over to Georgia and see if that strategy works here...
As for the "ranches" up in Michigan, et. al. I had a friend that did some work towards his Masters Degree in Forestry/Wildlife Management on one of the more well known fenced operations up there. He had an interesting observation from his work up there. Obviously they are well fed up there. Their numbers cannot be supported by native browse and food plots alone. When feeding the deer, the guys would rattle for the deer and then spread their deer pellets and shelled corn. The deer would eventually associate horn rattling with "mealtime"! Small wonder that just about every show featuring this place shows them rattling, regardless of the period of the rut. I am not for a minute going to state that all operations are run in this manner, nor are all Texas deer like the deer that my buddy hunted, but I will say that our Georgia deer are considerably more difficult to hunt than these examples!
Yeah, I'm still a son of a bitch M16.

I am always amazed when folks are willing to generalize about the terrain or animals in a state that encompasses a quarter of a million square miles. And then argue that their generalization is the rule.


Tim

The only sad thing is, it is hunter agents hunter. I wish you put that much effort into fighting the anti-hunting crowd. I have never hunted Texas,, but I would never rule it out. Hunters are our own worst enemy.

quote:

Yeah, I'm still a son of a bitch M16.

And you are still ignorant. And so is your friend. One of the first questions I will ask when booking a hunt is "how will we be hunting."
Then I can decide whether or not the hunt suits me. Maybe it's more sporting to hunt a food plot or under a tree full of acorns? Did they hold a gun to his head and force him to hunt over bait.

"That's what they have on the hunting shows so it's gotta be true." You really are ignorant. I rest my case.

How about giving us "your" vast experience with hunting the entire state of Texas. Who did you hunt with? What ranch? Which county? How many times have you hunted Texas? Enlighten us with your vast experience please.

This whole discussion is why you should hunt in Zimbabwe or Tanzania or nearly anywhere in Africa.

quote:

Frankly I could care less about TX. You won't ever find me down there!!

Great! We're both happier.

In all my years I've NEVER hunted outside Texas, I HAVE hunted public land (State Park), and NEVER hunted inside a high fence.

MG, you are completely full of yourself, and while what you describe does exist (here and elsewhere in the US), it is the exception, not the rule.

quote:

If I was wrong, you would not continue to see show after show from whatever ranch in Texas, or the multitude of fenced operations in the North.

If you are basing your attitude of Texas from what you see on TV, you are a little short on common sense. That's like basing your views of Texans from watching the soap opera 'Dallas'!

High fences make for good TV...the rest of the world looks real different. Come out and see for yourself...educate your damn opinion!

Redhawk1,

We have an orginization called the Texas Wildlife Assoc. (TWA) that is a small but powerful. Its sole purpose is to fight anti-hunting legislation and they do a great job. Check out their website it is really cool. They put out a great magizine too. Great articles on habitat, livestock, youth hunting, etc...

As for the rest of you anti Texas hunters come down and see for yourselves. Talk to some guides and landowners to find true fair chase and hunt Texas. We have a long standing in producing quality game, long before high fences and protien were around. I personally hunt a large high fenced ranch and it is hardly a zoo. We have deer we have photographed with Camtrakkers and never seen on the hoof. Just because deer are behind a fence doesn't mean they are tame. I personally would not hunt under high fence if it were small and the deer were tame, I agree that is no longer hunting.

Hank H.
Your deer are wild due to the high amount of poaching from back woods types right? Well thats what the rest of the world has heard so it must be true. I even had this friend that went there to hunt and saw it first hand so its ALL like that then.

Perry

I agree with Redhawk.
It seems in these forums, that the less a fellow knows about something, the more heated his commentary. I guess they think that heat and volume can compensate for lack of knowledge.
I, of course, never do that...........

iwzbeeman

I agree. Reminds me of a quote that an old friend of mine used to use referring to people like that: "They're often wrong, but never in doubt!"

New record or not?
Hate Texas hunting or not?

Doesn't matter to me. I would take that trophy anyday.

IMHO

Madgoat,

I normally don't get into these very often, but this'll be one of them. I do understand that there is a perceived problem with high fences, mainly in the Edwards Plateau Region of Central Texas. That is a point of regular debate here in the state, and I generally fall into the non-high fence crowd.

However, this state is much more than Central Texas. Just try finding a high fence in East Texas, South Texas, the Trans-Pecos, West Texas, or the Panhandle. Also consider that Texas is approximately 3 times the size of Wyoming, so your little "visit" to our fine State probably wasn't of long enough duration for you to be an "expert" on the hunting situation in Texas. And, if it sucks so bad, why are so many clamoring to hunt here. Is it the 4 million white-tailed deer (the majority of which are free-ranging), the largest concentration of migratory waterfowl in the country, the fair climate (no "tree popping" cold here - today it is a balmy 64 degrees), the mostly friendly people, or what?

Just two cents worth from 6th generation Texan.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Redhawk1,

We have an orginization called the Texas Wildlife Assoc. (TWA) that is a small but powerful. Its sole purpose is to fight anti-hunting legislation and they do a great job. Check out their website it is really cool. They put out a great magizine too. Great articles on habitat, livestock, youth hunting, etc...

As for the rest of you anti Texas hunters come down and see for yourselves. Talk to some guides and landowners to find true fair chase and hunt Texas. We have a long standing in producing quality game, long before high fences and protien were around. I personally hunt a large high fenced ranch and it is hardly a zoo. We have deer we have photographed with Camtrakkers and never seen on the hoof. Just because deer are behind a fence doesn't mean they are tame. I personally would not hunt under high fence if it were small and the deer were tame, I agree that is no longer hunting.

Hank H.
Your deer are wild due to the high amount of poaching from back woods types right? Well thats what the rest of the world has heard so it must be true. I even had this friend that went there to hunt and saw it first hand so its ALL like that then.

Perry

Thanks Perry I will check it out. I look forward to come to Texas and hunt some day. My sister lives in Houston.