Last night I was talking to a buddy of mine that is 62 and had drawn a lot of tags through out the west for a variety of species. He told me that points programs weren't doing anything for hunters.

So I started doing some simple math and looking at how long it would realistically take me to draw tags in a few states. Here's that data.

In Wyoming you could draw Targhee for sheep in 2017 with 15 points. It has a 50% success rate on rams. 18 points opened up the number of units to 8. 15 years of non-resident sheep points at $100 per, and a $2266 license plus outfitting cost because part of Targhee is wilderness so $3766 for the tag, and $4000-8000 for the outfitting cost. A reasonable price for a bighorn sheep hunt. Maybe you are only sitting on 1 point, and the magic 8 ball tells you that maybe that same unit will take 20 points or 28 points or even 30 points you will be into it $4266 to $5266 if they don't increase tag cost. But we know they are going to increase cost, so maybe that 20 point or 30 point sheep tag will cost $12,000-23,000 30 years from now.


Wyoming's antelope, deer and elk programs are similar but less expensive. A tag will typically take a non-resident 5-8 points for a good area, and then the cost of the tag. So you normally have a $800-1500 in the price of a tag with enough points purchased yearly to get there.

If you look at a state like Arizona, Utah or Nevada that requires a hunting license every year and a $8-30 point per species per year, the cost is less, but all these states require 8-10 points if not more to aquire an antelope or deer tag. Meaning that most deer, antelope and elk tags require the commitment of $2000 worth of licenses and points over 10 years to draw a tag plus the cost of the tag.

New Mexico, Utah, Colorado and Nevada allow land owners to sell tags. A lot of antelope and deer tags can be bought for $1500. Up front, no points, no draw, no nothing!

Just thinking out load.

Revenue generating programs.

BWW:

I have gone through the math just like as well, only instead of the landowner tag, looked at the Res hunts. It isn't just the money, it is the time.

One the other hand, I do point out to my non-hunting friends how much revenue the draw hunts produce just in terms of application fees.

Your calculations aren't including "point creep". That is the idea that it will constantly take more and more points to draw the best units. You won't see it as much in deer and antelope but look at moose, sheep and goats and it becomes obvious that my children will never be able to draw hunts in the west for these species when there are people who have been building points for years ahead of them.

The states have found a way to sell people hope and wishes.

Wyoming already increased the sheep point costs to $150 and license costs. So that may benefit the high end client. But the biggest problem with WY is the push by residents to change the quota for non-residents. Currently, WY gives 80% of tags to residents and 20% to non-residents. There has been a proposal in the WY legislature to change that ratio to 90-10. That essentially cuts out 60-80% of the nonres moose and sheep tags because many units off well less than 10 permits required for a 90-10 split.

Western game agencies have discovered they can generate as much or more from selling points than the can for selling permits for many species. It is a sham. Many tags take lifetimes to draw, yet priority is given to a small segment of the population who were eligible and able to apply at an arbitrary point in time when the point system was started.

A non-res starting to apply in UT today will most likely never draw a LE or OIL tag by use of points. It will be luck.

As pdog stated, points are revenue generating programs, sold on the idea of "fairness" when nothing is less fair.

Invest in yourself and buy permits as you can afford them. Buy a Dall hunt on cancellation and go while you can. That is better use of time and money than spending $10k in app fees for hunts a guy will never draw, unless he is too old to go.

I am going to stay in the programs for Wyoming, Utah, Nevada and Arizona.

I am going to apply in NM and Idaho as money allows.

I am not a resident of any state right now, but we will move back to the USA in November of 2019 or 2021 depending what life serves us.

So I have 3-5 years of sending four states my money anyway.

Point creep makes it worse than I had pointed out.

A guy can hunt mountain goats every year in BC or Alaska for under $10,000 and a lot of times under $8,000. Much less than the cost of building points and drawing a tag (if ever) in the lower 48.

Most of the pronghorn antelope guided hunts can be bought in NM or Texas for under $4000.

We are staying in UT, WY, AZ and NV because I honestly think I will end up living in AZ, NV if we don't end up in Montana or Alaska in 3-5 years.

You are right there are a lot of cancellation hunts for less than the price of the tags.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
If you look at a state like Arizona, Utah or Nevada that requires a hunting license every year and a $8-30 point per species per year, the cost is less, but all these states require 8-10 points if not more to aquire an antelope or deer tag.

Arizona has thousands of deer tags available per year that require no or minimal points, even for non-residents. They just aren't on the Strip or North Kaibab.

There are mule deer tags that private landowners in Nevada are willing sell in prime hunting areas for 15-30K, according to my Outfitter this year. I just wasted 12 preference points (12 years) and 6K on a mule deer hunt in Nevada in area 24 (primo area) this past week and never even saw anything big enough to shoot. It was hot enough to wear a T-shirt right until the end of the hunt on October 31st.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
If you look at a state like Arizona, Utah or Nevada that requires a hunting license every year and a $8-30 point per species per year, the cost is less, but all these states require 8-10 points if not more to aquire an antelope or deer tag.

Arizona has thousands of deer tags available per year that require no or minimal points, even for non-residents. They just aren't on the Strip or North Kaibab.

I am not a bowhunter, and I am not interested in it. Are these the thousands of tags you are talking about?

There are some SE Arizona coues rifle tags available with very few points.

The only reason I continue to buy a hunting license in AZ is because of the hunts on military ranges that I can hunt. Since I am already applying for those hunts (and in 2016 getting drawn) it is a no brainer to continue to buy points for everything else.

Nevada and Utah have easy systems that are a little cheaper than AZ, and I live near by, so I play.

I can't see playing the game in someplace like Colorado that has pure preference points.

Montana has a lot of tags, and it is probably worth playing their game. But any lower 48; goat, moose, sheep tag can be bought easier across the border or on a indian reservation.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
There are mule deer tags that private landowners in Nevada are willing sell in prime hunting areas for 15-30K, according to my Outfitter this year. I just wasted 12 preference points (12 years) and 6K on a mule deer hunt in Nevada in area 24 (primo area) this past week and never even saw anything big enough to shoot. It was hot enough to wear a T-shirt right until the end of the hunt on October 31st.

That sucks, my uncle did the same thing in Wyoming for sheep a couple of years ago. They oversold the area. And he didn't see a single mature ram, and they had horses. He was up on the mountain for a month.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
If you look at a state like Arizona, Utah or Nevada that requires a hunting license every year and a $8-30 point per species per year, the cost is less, but all these states require 8-10 points if not more to aquire an antelope or deer tag.

Arizona has thousands of deer tags available per year that require no or minimal points, even for non-residents. They just aren't on the Strip or North Kaibab.

I am not a bowhunter, and I am not interested in it. Are these the thousands of tags you are talking about?

There are some SE Arizona coues rifle tags available with very few points.

The only reason I continue to buy a hunting license in AZ is because of the hunts on military ranges that I can hunt. Since I am already applying for those hunts (and in 2016 getting drawn) it is a no brainer to continue to buy points for everything else.

Nevada and Utah have easy systems that are a little cheaper than AZ, and I live near by, so I play.

I can't see playing the game in someplace like Colorado that has pure preference points.

Montana has a lot of tags, and it is probably worth playing their game. But any lower 48; goat, moose, sheep tag can be bought easier across the border or on a indian reservation.

There are both Coues and mule deer RIFLE permits available. They are generally for the earlier seasons, and in fact, many wind up going into the second draw and then onto the first-come OTC buy. So if someone wants to hunt deer, they can do it every year in AZ.

You are right Tony.

For mule deer
20C
28
30A
30B

For coues deer
32
30b
34b
34a
36a
35b
35a
36b
36c
30a
29
21
24b
24a

Do you think 33 for the DEC 15-DEC31 season is a better area than Huachuca military tag in the same season?

I guess I'll have to buy your book.

BWW:

I used to hunt some of areas to the south and east of Tucson, but there are (were) so many issues with illegals coming through, I don't trust my camp to be left alone. Never had any issues, but didn't want any either. I know several who feel the same way, including a guide I used to hunt with that quit hunting that area.

Sounds like a good plan to stay with Huachuca and sleep at the base hotel.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Do you think 33 for the DEC 15-DEC31 season is a better area than Huachuca military tag in the same season?

I guess I'll have to buy your book.

I'm not up to date on how many permits are doled out for the Huachuca hunt, but if it isn't a slew, I'd stick with that.

Well depends on how you look at it, its money used for the preservation of the species as a rule...Good donation IMO..

Tony I think it was 15 mule deer, and 50-100 coues over three seasons.

The season I drew had 25-50 tags.

I can't remember the particulars.

Mule deer were muzzle loader only.

Those would be good hunts, but the latest Dec. season is best.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
There are mule deer tags that private landowners in Nevada are willing sell in prime hunting areas for 15-30K, according to my Outfitter this year. I just wasted 12 preference points (12 years) and 6K on a mule deer hunt in Nevada in area 24 (primo area) this past week and never even saw anything big enough to shoot. It was hot enough to wear a T-shirt right until the end of the hunt on October 31st.

Who did you hunt with?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well depends on how you look at it, its money used for the preservation of the species as a rule...Good donation IMO..

In a perfect world it is. The fee increases in Wyoming this year actually means Wyoming Game and Fish will get about $1,000,000 less next year thanks to the legislature playing games with how the money is allotted.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well depends on how you look at it, its money used for the preservation of the species as a rule...Good donation IMO..

Not to mention that it's fun! For me anyways. I get something out of the research, entering, and hearing results each year.

I've played the points game, both for myself and my son, for many years. While I don't like the cost (nearly $500 a year for us in Wyoming alone) I realized long ago that it is THE way to draw premium tags across the west. We build points in CA, NV, AZ, UT, WY. We also have lots of points in OR but no longer accumulate points there.

Yes, it's expensive but we've drawn some great tags and enjoyed incredible hunts along the way. In the last five years alone, I've drawn a great Nevada elk tag, Arizona antelope and Arizona Strip deer. My son is 30 and he has drawn 2 great rut elk tags in AZ, late Kaibab deer, Nevada antelope, California antelope and a great CA deer tag among other tags. He can draw every moose tag in Wyoming now, and we will both draw sheep tags there in the next 3-6 years. Yes, playing the points game is expensive but we've drawn lots of great tags and will continue to do so.

My son, who turns 30 this month, has 20 moose and sheep points in Wyoming, 21 sheep and antelope points in Arizona and 15 points for everything in Nevada. Ive been building points for him across the west since he was 10 years old. He's going to draw a bunch of great tags in the next 10-15 years.

drummondlindsey: I hunted with 7L Outfitters. It is owned by Brad Lloyd. My guide was Garrett Johnson.

There is nothing like hunting a limited entry (good-great unit). I'll take a premium deer or elk tag over the most of the hunting that I have done in Africa (And I enjoyed Africa).

So, to me it is worth it. I have slacked off i recent years on a few states (which I should have never done). However, I am collecting points and we (my family have drawn some great tags).

There are several states that to me, are hardly worth applying (due to odds and cost). However, there are some states that have great value, at a great cost. My home state of Utah is one of them. I would encourage a NR to apply.

Given the price of premium guided hunts, I would apply.

quote:

Originally posted by MC:


As pdog stated, points are revenue generating programs, sold on the idea of "fairness" when nothing is less fair .

Just out of curiosity, what would be more fair than the current systems?

JBrown,

I would say the fairest is no points random draw. If you want to reward long term applicants I think the system where you get an additional point for each year you apply and the next year your name goes in the hat your point number squared seems fair. Fair to the long term applicants and fair to the new hunters that just passed their hunters education and want to start applying. My view is that a Wyoming type system is the least fair to the kids starting out.

Is 10 the youngest you can be to start building points?

I have a 6 year old who wants to go hunting in the worst way, I need to figure out a way to bring her.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Is 10 the youngest you can be to start building points?

I have a 6 year old who wants to go hunting in the worst way, I need to figure out a way to bring her.

Just take her, as she doesn't have to have a gun or license to enjoy the experience with you! In Wyoming you have to be 11 and have your 12th birthday the same calendar year to buy a PP or hunt big game.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Is 10 the youngest you can be to start building points?

I have a 6 year old who wants to go hunting in the worst way, I need to figure out a way to bring her.

Just take her, as she doesn't have to have a gun or license to enjoy the experience with you! In Wyoming you have to be 11 and have your 12th birthday the same calendar year to buy a PP or hunt big game.

The minimum age to start accumulating points varies by state. As Topgun said, just take her. I took my son on his first turkey hunt at 2 1/2 years old, his first duck hunt at 3 and on a Wyoming deer/antelope hunt at 7. By the time he shot his first animal, an antelope with his bow at 12 years old, he was on his 4th trip to Wyoming or Montana.

There are tons of things you can do to make it fun for the little ones. In addition to big game hunting, we visited the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, the Custer Battlefield, went fishing and bird hunting, visited Yellowstone after all the other tourists were gone. Taking your kid along is excellent for them and for you.

I wish I could bring my kids here in Europe. Seems to be a taboo among German hunters to have a 6 year old in the blind watching the world go by.