The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting This buck took 6 shots to down this morning....Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| This buck took 6 shots to down this morning.... | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
This is only the second time this has ever happened to me in 40+ years of hunting. I was hunting this morning before church and I took a nice 8 pointer at 7:50 AM. I shot him with a vintage 1949 Winchester model 70 in what else, 270 WCF. Shooting 130 grain TSX's, as this is what the rifle likes. First shot: Bang flop, and then to my surprise he pops back up. Second, third and fourth shots were much the same...FYI: all shots in the lungs and shoulders from 180 yards away. I was astounded. by the 4th shot, he was down (paralyzed?) but still breathing. I was out of ammo....ran back to the truck and got my 45 out. Two more shots in the lungs and he expired. The only other time this has happened to me was when I took a nice muzzleloader buck that absorbed five 54 caliber hits. Still shaking my head over this. The other deer shot with this 270 and TSX load have all been bang/flops.  | ||
|
| One of Us |
Hank, Nice buck. Did the TSX pass through? Was it poor bullet performance or was it just some freak of nature? By the way, truly classic rifle / scope rig. Hugh | |||
|
| one of us |
Here is a picture of new X's bullets right out of the box. Note that half of them have closed in hollow points. Such a mono, one piece, bullet might not expand at all if the edge of the hollow point is closed in. On a lead filled bullet it might bust open anyway as it's weak below. The X bullet with the miss shaped hollow point might grab and turn backwards also. Some say to aim "at the bone" with X's. That seems like way too much trouble to me for just deer hunting.  Join the NRA | |||
|
| One of Us |
I won't touch an X bullet. They have cost a number of of hardcore deer hunters down in south GA more than one nice buck...me included. In every instance, they "icepicked" on us. However, the TSX's have been, generally, like a bolt of lightning for most of us. No real problems...today included. I just chalked it up to one of those things we deal with from time to time. Thanks for the comment on the model 70 Hugh...I love it. It has been my Holy Grail for sometime to get one. Every once in a while I like to regress some from my custom beanfield rifles, etc...and get back to the way it used to be. Feels good when I smack one with this rifle. FYI: it is in 98+ percent. I just put a brand new Leupold 2 x 10 VX-III on it.(40 mm, not 50 mm so I would be correct for that era). Shoots about 1/2" to 3/4" groups with 59.0 grains of 4350 in that bullet. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hank nice Buck!  And good shooting!What county did you get him in?I like it & nice rifle too!   Way to go | |||
|
| one of us |
Hank, Really nice buck. Is that an apartment building behind the deer, or just your house?  Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
| one of us |
Very nice buck there and a like the rifle as well and it has been well taken care of. Kind of odd on all the shots. TSXs have worked perfect for me and a friend that I load for with South Ga deer. I am originally from GA myself and miss the hunting. I have never shot one twice and maybe because I know where my bullets go and a lung shot deer will no last lung. Death is certain so I don't get excited and just sit in the stand waiting for another and when I get bored I start dragging. If it is only your second experience like that then have no worry. Good Luck on your next adventure. | |||
|
| One of Us |
No apartments...just a neighbor, his house & shop. We live & hunt in Lee County, GA. I didn't get too excited about the 6 shots after it was all over....I have seen enough strange things happen with all makes of bullets over the years to accept their excentricities. Dwight, I worship at the altar of Nosler, but have started using TSX's on deer this past year in rifles that prefer them....good results in all cases from them. On my "Nosler" rifles I am using Accubonds exclusively...no more ballistic tips. The Accubonds are slightly more accurate than the ballistic tips in my rifles that prefer Nosler. I didn't expect that, but am pleased to see it! Take it easy. | |||
|
| one of us |
Let's see some carcass photos...I've shot over a dozen deer, a dozen elk, and several antelope with Barnes bullets and they sure do a number on critters. I've only recovered a handful of bullets from critters (5) but each one did exactly what it was supposed to do and made a perfect "X". As many things as I've watched go bang/flop with Barnes bullets, it boggles me that it took 6 rounds to drop a deer. MG | |||
|
| one of us |
Hank: that looks like a beautiful old M7o (great looking buck, too). But it looks like it has a monte carlo stock. They weren't available in 1949. Was it restocked at a later date? | |||
|
| One of Us |
I shot a doe this season with a 165 grain BTSP from my 30.06 at 20 or so yards. She stops starts walking kind of drunken like and falls over head down, I was thinking game over, not quite. I put my rifle down and start walking over to her with my bag that contained my knives and permit when all the sudden her neck pops up and she starts to get up. I drop the bag and run about 5 yards to get my rifle I put down. I fired as she was making her way to the fenceline, I fired again as she was almost to the fence and then once again just before she jumped the fence. The first shot was placed behind the shoulder in the lungs, 2nd shot hit two inches behind first shot, 3rd shot hit the hip area and last shot unkonwn. She made it just out of sight to be found dead behind a tree. I couldn't believe this deer took 3 shots of 06 to put down. I truly believe she was dead on her feet but didn't give her enough time to fall "asleep". Esox357. | |||
|
| one of us |
NIce deer and a beautiful rifle. I also have shot quite a few crittrs with x's, in .375 and .284. I recovered several slugs, all retained weight very good, like 95%. They folded back like petals on a flower and entry wound was like a broad head entry. I can't complain, except for the price. maybe you need to speed them up!  I use hornady 80% of the time. | |||
|
| one of us |
59 grains of 4350 should be plenty speedy! I was thinking 55-56 was max in most books these days. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Beautiful deer and beautiful rifle by the Way!!!! Glad to see you are not one of those that defile a 270 after this incident and run out and buy yourself some sort of Magnum.... Bullet probably passed thru without opening all the way... what was the distance shot at and what was your MV?? Or else he could have been just one of those tenacious deer that was hanging onto life, and plain old tuff... from his size, I would say he had strong survivor instincts! I am envious on the buck but MORE envious of that gorgeous Model 70! | |||
|
| one of us |
I can't beleave that you guys can't see the problem. The gun is a hunk or cr@p. The only way you can make it right is by selling me the gun and getting a super duper mag of some sort. Just kidding. The buck is a great looking buck. The rifle is awsome, Just awsome. Congratulations on both. P.S. I have a 270 that looks just like yours I use it for elk hunting. Well not just like it, mine is well used. Ron | |||
|
| one of us |
Hank: I don't usually post "great photo" or "great deer" but I love that photo. Great deer, nice rifle. Love the fallen leaves on the green grass - only in Dixie. | |||
|
one of us |
Just sounds like one tough buck to me. Even if the bullets did not open up that is still a lot of hits. I would not even expect a deer hit with fmj .223 rem to take that many hits. At least I never saw one that did. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
|
| One of Us |
This just reminded me of when one of my buddy's told me he shot a deer that would not die. He said 1st shot dropped it 2nd the same. Then it got up. They tracked it and it was still alive. They shot it twice more and it still was alive. If I remember right they ended up braking the neck. Sometimes those whitetails strive to live is amazing. I agree with Idaho Ron everyone should use a super duper magnum!  Just kidding. Great looking deer and rifle. | |||
|
one of us |
Nice buck... Nice rifle... Go back to Noslers and you'll never have to wonder what happened again... The problem with Barnes X Bullets has always been twofold... They foul your bore like crazy and they work "most of the time" quite well...  Noslers don't foul your bore hardly at all and they ALWAYS work... No excuses. $bob$  | |||
|
| One of Us |
I agree with LDHUNTER. I took 4 deer this season. 1 large buck at 200 yards, one forkhorn buck at 225 yards, and 2 does at about 50 yards each. All taken with Nosler Partition bullets. All One shot kills. all taken with a .300 Winnie loaded to 30-06 levels. Partitions are the deer hunting bullet. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hank H.: First off that fine Rifle you were using today holds 6 rounds total - what in the world were you doing going afield with only 4 (FOUR!) rounds total, along? I pride myself in trying my damnedest to make one shot kills on the Big Game I Hunt but even at that I take along the five rounds my 270 Sendero holds and 5 more in my right front pants pocket and then I have in my day pack TWO Uncle Mikes folding shell holders that hold 12 rounds each! Now you may say that 34 rounds is way to many to be carrying but I would rather have to many than to few! 4 rounds along on a Big Game Hunting venture is simply not appropo! It was an OVERSIGHT of some kind, I am sure! For obvious reasons I hope it does not happen again! Having said THAT - your 4 rounds in the lungs and in the shoulders with that 270 and any reasonably performing bullet SHOULD have killt that Deer in several seconds! I simply am in a state of disbelief over your tale of woe. I NEVER shoot Deer and Deer size game in the shoulders by the way! It causes a slow detah and wastes way to much meat! I ALWAYS try to place my bullets in the heart/lung area! A QUICK and humane kill will thus be had! Also your meat will taste better from heart/lung shot Deer! Trust me on that - I have seen it proven countless times over the 47 years I have been Hunting Deer and observing others during that time! Also this - I have used the 270 Winchester for Big Game off and on for right at 40 years myself. I have never had anything even approaching your described situation, occur to me or folks I have Hunted with who have used the 270 on Deer! I used my 270 WCF and Nosler bullets just a few days ago to kill a 6x6 Bull Elk (shot through the heart/lung area by the way). Again I am at an absolute loss to understand the "slow death" of that nice Buck. Congratulations on that part of your day by the way - getting the nice Buck. Let us know if anything else turns up on your investigation of this "slow" Deer harvest. I might even suggest you shoot a round of that ammo into a few wet telephone books and see whats what. I use Nosler bullets EXCLUSIVELY for my Big Game Hunting. I loaded my first Nosler bullets when I was 12 years old - I am 59 now and can never recall shooting ANY game animal more than once through the heart/lung area without said game animal coming QUICKLY to bag! I am not sure who makes TSX's, and, I don't care! For the rest of my Big Game Hunting life I will be using Noslers, BUT, whoever makes them (the tsx's) - forget about them! I am sure you have used other bullets in the past ("40 years") and I would suggest you try something that you have used in the past that did not give this type performance. Use them or do as I do and use Nolser's - I can just about guarantee you WILL NOT have to shoot a Deer 4 times in the shoulders and lungs to kill it with either a Nosler Partition or a Nosler Ballistic Tip from that fine 270 Rifle of yours! Best of luck in the future. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy P.S.: The Monte Carlo type stocks on pre-64 Winchester Model 70 Standard Weight Rifles (like the one shown in your beautiful picture) were not available UNTIL late in the year of 1951! Maybe you switched stocks on it or maybe someone else did? If you send me all but the last two digits of your serial number on that Model 70 I will double check and verify when that Rifle was actually made (assembled). Perhaps you are quoting the date that shows on the bottom of the barrel? That was when the barrel was made - not necessarily when the RIFLE was made. Often the Rifles were not made (assembled) until years later than the barrel production date alludes to! P.P.S.: Is your nifty Rifle for sale? | |||
|
one of us |
When I saw the headline of the thread I was sure the bullet was a NBT, the only multiple shot deer I have had was with them! | |||
|
| one of us |
Hank H, My point about the hollow cavity in the X's being damaged or too small would also apply to the 3X's the same. It did take six shots to kill a deer with a 270!! What did the wounds look like? How many shots hit the deer and where? Kind of flat there huh? Where is the backstop for those six bullets? Join the NRA | |||
|
one of us |
Pure BS  I have taken a lot of animals with Barnes X bullets as well as there TSX and have yet to have to shoot one more than once. Shot placement is everything. Hit it in the heart, lungs and you will have a dead animal. They can't breath without lungs and blood stops pumping when the heart is blown up. Yes animals are tough but they are not super man. Also don't expect any animal to just fall over dead ever time you shoot. Hank H, if you had time to make 4 shots, it is obvious that the buck was not going anywhere fast. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| one of us |
Redhawk1, I guess if you used Noslers you'd know that you actually CAN expect that...  Works for me...  $bob$ | |||
|
| One of Us |
I had a similar result in '88 with Rem coreloc's. 5 hits to the lungs with 165 gr 30-06 and the deer finially walked off and laid down. I found him dead, but sometimes we think that because we have seen or killed ourselves 40-60 head of game we know what they all will do when shot. Some are just tougher than others and like people it isn't always visible from the outside. Gianni. | |||
|
one of us |
One of the First deer I shot was a yearling Fallow that took 5 shots of 100g 243win. (I don't want to start a slanging match on the capabilities of the calibre) but the same calibre and bullet for my stalking buddy takes about 40-50 fallow deer each year and only once in the last 3 years has he needed to shoot more than once. My point is that I hit the freak incident where the Furry Fella didn't want to give up and lie down. On another time, I shot a big buck 2 years ago that was a one shot kill with the same gun, (using 90g sako Gameheads) he went about 600yds with a big hole in him and no heart and lungs to speak of... I could see him standing in the feild visibly bleeding and with a big hole in him. It was the longest 30secs in the feild I can remember!! Weird stuff happens if you shoot enough game. FB | |||
|
| one of us |
And you probably believe in the tooth fairy. Not all animals drop in there tracks, if you think that Nosler is some kind of magic bullet your fooling yourself, but you probably don't find that hard to do.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
one of us |
Beautiful rifle, and deer. Surprising news regarding what it took to kill the buck too. From my experience, I'd say this buck had something on his mind considering the time of year, and he was just full of adrenaline. Years ago, I watched a friend put 4 remmy corelokts into a doe at 40 yards, all in the boiler room, she just kept going and going and going. Bang-flop, get up and run, over and over. Her lungs were soup and the heart was hit. Now and then, you'll encounter a deer that is just not ready to die. | |||
|
| one of us |
Nope... I've just killed over 60 head of game mostly whitetails with Nosler Partitions and bang flop is how they've reacted. Nosler guys like me all say essentially the same thing... They're really boring bullets and leave nothing to talk about... They just work every time.... If you want to keep "tinkering" with X Bullets you'll likely end up joining the hundreds of hunters I've talked to through the years and they all seem to really like the bullets and say "they work great most of the time" and most of them end up trying something else after they get tired of rationalizing why they fail sometimes. They just aren't reliable ALL THE TIME like the Partition... That's the whole truth adn nothing but the truth... $bob$ | |||
|
One of Us |
A shoulder shot deer in the proper spot does NOT die a slow death. Put it in the proper spot on the shoulder and no tracking is involved. However I do agree that it ruins a lot of meat though. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
|
| one of us |
Jarrod: Yes - a Deer shot in the shoulder dies slower than a heart/lung shot Deer. Yes - it does ruin more meat with not only the extensive and seeping blood shot and splintered bones that result from shoulder shot Deer but when anything but an exact "broadside" shoulder shot is taken then in comes to play the "phenomenon" known as inexplicable bullet explosions and glancing bullets and lack of penetration - and lost game! The simple, effective and more humane shot for the sportsman is to aim for the heart/lungs area and quick death is virtually assured! The shoulder shot on Deer is not only unneccessary it is to be discouraged! The proper place to send ones projectile is into the heart/lung area of Deer - death will be within seconds and no adrenaline will be pumping around through the animals flesh (like on shoulder shot Deer as they run off flailing one front leg or as they lie there flopping and slowly dying!)! If one has the time to aim at a Deer's shoulder he has enough time to aim at the more lethal, quicker killing, more humane and meat saving heart/lung area! Avoid striking the shoulder blades when shooting at Deer and you will have more game brought to bag and better tasting game to boot! The shoulder shot on Deer is simply third rate and for people who don't know better. Angle your bullets, there Jarrod, into the heart/lungs area and YOU will have better meat, more meat, less tracking jobs, more humane kills, better bled out meat and much less MESS! And, you won't be worrying about possible shoulder blade "blown-up" bullets and ricochets, lack of penetration, game that jumps up after being knocked down and on and on (lost game in other words!) Try it for a few years Jarrod, you will like it. I am guessing two of the posters four initial Rifle shots hit "shoulder" (at least one did according to the post - but for sake of our conversation lets say two hit shoulder) there Jarrod, and it took 4 more (other!) rounds to kill the poor creature! Using ANY kind of a credible 270 Hunting bullet and a heart/lung shot the creature in question would have been dead in 6 seconds - MAXIMUM, and one shot would have been enough! And to boot, no mess, no seeping bloodshot, no splinters of bone in the flesh, better tasting meat, more meat - let alone the lack of worry, fret, consternation and upset that the HUNTER obviously endured during the posted situation! Use a good Hunting bullet and shoot them in the heart/lung area - troubles OVER! Period! Ignore my learned advice at your own risk, of the resultant troubles and misery that WILL come your way! Avoid shoulder shooting Deer! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
|
| One of Us |
I agreed with you that it ruins a lot of meat. But a shoulder shot deer in the proper spot does NOT die slower they drop in their tracks. However it is just as easy to put it behind the shoulder if you want to keep the shoulders. to not ruin meat. But you are saying they die slower if shot in the shoulder, not for me they drop in their tracks instantly, behind the shoulder it takes a few seconds normally. Instantaneous is shorter than a few seconds. Either shot is properly placed will be a one shot kill. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bang flops have more to do anatomically where the bullet hits than what type of bullet hits. My first big big buck ended up taking four 270 130gr Horn SP's. I was a little young and wet behind the ears. But after the fourth shot I figured out that I just needed to wait and let the dang thing die. The deer was dead but just didn't know it. I have used Barnes X and TSX's quite a bit and never remember having to rationalize them not working. I personally think they are the best premium bullet on the market. I have had bang flops with a 53gr TSX 22-250's and had deer run off with 338 WM, 338-06's and 350 RM and yes even a 375 H&H. Shot placement is the answer. Some deer have more will to live than others. You punch a double lung hole through them and they are probably going to run. You bust down their skeleton or spinal cord and you have a bang flop. | |||
|
| one of us |
Every animal I've shot in the shoulders was dead instantly and didn't move, didn't take any other breaths once I walked up on their lifeless body. May the Meat God have mercy on my soul. Several of the game I've shot in the lungs with a firearm have moved some distance and were not dead instantly. But many did drop right there and died instantly as well. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
|
| one of us |
I don't think any bullet out there is better than another at killing deer. All of them kill deer pretty easily. I use TSXs now since it does not blood shot as much meat. I can't say it kills any better. I have used Sierras sucessfully for many years. They don't kill any better but blood shot more meat. The quickness of the kill on a deer or anything else is where the bullet hits. All bullets destroy flesh and bone that they hit. | |||
|
| One of Us |
i took an elk and a deer with the regular barens 165 gr with my 300 wsm and they both did the job well. i had to tke another shot at the deer cuz my first one was in the ass. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Wow, the armchair quarterbacks are on the attack. There is less BS in a stockyard. First of all, if you want a higher percentage of possibilty for a 'bang flop' (whatever the hell that means) take the shoulder shot. Every deer, elk, moose, I've seen taken in the shoulder hasn't went ten yards (most fall immediately). Number two, the longest tracking job I have ever been through was 8 years ago when my buddy shot an elk with a 180 nosler partition through the shoulder(angled back). That nosler hardly left a hole through that elk and he went nearly 800yds through some thick alder before we found him wheezing out blood bubbles. The bullet hit heavy bone, rubbed the whole front end off and went 'solid' through the lungs. Freaky things happen, but I still recommend the partition. Number three, the plugged Barnes hollow point theory doesn't hold water (though it does contain logic, Savage). Heard the same thing a long time ago, so I punched in some hollow points in on some XBT's and they all expanded on books. Animals are not predictable mediums, and weird things happen sometimes. Wonder bullets don't exist, and I'm sure some other people are sick of hearing the same boring reasons why someone's bullet is the amazing 'hammer of thor'. I don't care if my animals 'bang-flop', I just want two bloody holes through plumbing so I know I'll find them when they die. 'Bang-flop' is for people to lazy to go check if they hit the dear or not. I shoot TSX's cause they are accurate, they work, they always make two holes, and they look cool. If I am below 2700 MV I always go Hornady for the same reason. 2 cents. By the way Big H, J. O'C. would have loved the rifle, and nice deer. Love the antler color. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I appreciate the replies. I know, it sounds like a tall tale, but the reason I posted it in the first place was simply because I was as shocked as some of you folks are. No, I don't have any "carcass" pics to share, but I need to clear one thing up based on VarmitGuy's comments. All shots, save one, were in the lungs. The remaining shot was in the shoulder, but did not ruin any meat at all. I hate to open a can of worms here, but that one shoulder hit was an icepick hole. That shoulder was fine after cutting it off the rib cage and rinsing it off. You made many good points VarmitGuy. Another point you made was regarding the Monte Carlo Stock. You have me puzzled now. The barrel clearly states it was a 1949 barrel...I assumed that ment a "1949" rifle???? This was supposedly the original stock on that rifle, as it was purchased from a reputable collector. s/n is 1060xx. With any rifle I shoot, Noslers go through it...period. This particular rifle hated Noslers and, based upon all the hoopla on the AR forum regarding TSX's, I decided to give them a try. This rifle absolutely loved them. So much that I decided to give them a try and see what all the fuss was about. Its a good bullet and worked just fine. Again, this particular instance was just "one of them thangs" as we say down here. Savage99: 4 shots from the 270 + 2 45's, not six 270's. The wound channels looked average at best....The partition, generally, gives me the most impressive wound channels year in and year out. Deer hit with the partitions looked like they hurt before they died. If I could have gotten this rifle to shoot partitions or accubonds decently, that is what I would have used. Yeah, the terrain is flat as a table top here! LDHunter: I can't disagree with a single thing you have said....good points as well. Have a great evening folks and I hope Santa is good to y'all | |||
|
| one of us |
I take offense to this. Laziness has nothing to do with why I prefer a game animal to drop. For me, bang flop means that animal won't run onto a property I don't have permission to be on, it means no tracking, it means that the game won't seek refuge in a deep gully that will take all day to retrieve. It usually means an instant kill. Laziness? Hardly. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting This buck took 6 shots to down this morning....
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
