So, how is a guy who is finally in a position to put his name in the hat for some of the premium western U.S. hunts supposed to draw those limited tags with point creep?

For example, let's take a well known premium elk unit here in Colorado. In 2006, you would have a 100% chance of drawing that tag with 17 preference points but only an 11.8% chance with 16 points. In 2010, you would have needed 20 points for a 100% draw, 19 points would have given you 57.1% and comparing that former 17 points in 2006 your draw odds would have only been 0.7%. For a non-resident, your draw odds with 20 points was only 26.3% in 2010!

For a similar comparison, a well known antelope unit here in Colorado would have taken 7 points in 2006 with a 100% draw and 27.8% chance with 6 points. In 2010, to draw that tag it would have required 11 points with 10 points having a 0% chance!!! For a non-resident, you would have needed 12 points.

So, for us younger guys who are finally finished with our education, and in a position to apply and spend our money on these hunts, we'll never get to because we are so far behind in the points game.

It is for these very same reasons, I continuously look at Africa for hunting. I can go to Africa every couple of years and take 6-8 plains game animals. During that same time period, I wouldn't even have a sniff of a chance at some of these hunts.

So true!

I think you will see changes occur to the point systems over time. Those CO elk units you talk of give a certain portion of permits in a random draw. That is a new change in the last few years. Wyoming changed its draw a couple years ago.

But no need to be doom and gloom. You can study the systems and see what you can draw or what type of tags you can obtain-- Here are some examples:

Idaho- No point system. You put in and try to draw a tag. Mule deer, whitetail deer, shiras moose, bighorns, elk.

Wyoming- Point system started 5 years ago. 25% of tags go to random draws. A guy can draw good units with 0-3 points. Mule deer, antelope (many great 2nd choice tags), elk, mountain goat. (I would not waste my time with moose or sheep if you are just starting).

CO- Tons of over the counter or draw every year tags. Weighted points for sheep and moose, but every who has put in for more than 3 years has a chance. Purchasing a landowner tag will run a guy $500-4,000. Deer, elk, sheep and moose.

Utah- half of all tags go into a random draw. Still many easy to draw tags. OR you can purchase a landowner tag OR you can purchase a conservation tag (costs run $1,000-75,000, but averages in the $3,000-5,000 range). Deer, elk, antelope, moose.

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't a decent African hunt going to run you $5,000 for 5 or 6 average animals? Flights, the hunt, trophy fees, tips, licenses, shipping, etc. For half that cost you can buy a great tag in some states.

You are right though, on the current course you and I will never draw some of those "best" units. I am just happy to have had many great hunts on easy to draw units.

MC,

Do you know what the draw odds are for this same elk unit in CO even with the changed point system just last year? For 5-18 points, it is a stagering 0.7%!!!

Besides, I'm not talking about hunting any ole unit, I'm talking about PREMIUM units. Here in CO, I can hunt deer and elk every other year by drawing a tag, which I'm fine with. As a matter of fact, I have access to landowner permits, so even in the years I don't draw a tag, I could still likely hunt.

Trust me, I put in for my fare share of hunts across the west. I yearly put in for CO, OK, UT, NM, WY, and NV. I'm contemplating putting in for AZ this year, which is why I'm doing my homework now to determine if it is worth my time, during MY lifetime!

I've put in of Idaho before, but didn't last year and likely won't this year either for a premium deer unit. Reason, they require you to purchase the $150 license, for what return? Being told "Sorry, You didn't draw", again! However, if they go to a points system, I'll likely put in because at least I'm getting in at the beginning of the game and will be rewarded with a point, which if you get in at the beginning will be worth something some day.

What about my two boys? They are 2 and 5 months old, when will they be able to draw some of these same Premium tags, especially with the point creep? It'll be interesting to see where some of these same point requirements are in the next five years.

I hunted South Africa again in August last year. From the minute I left my door, to the minute all 6 animals return from the taxidermist, it will cost me about $8,600. I don't pay for airline flights because I can use my airline points for a free flight; however, for those who can't, you can tack on an additional $1500-2500 for flights. So, you're looking at a total cost of roughly $10,000 for a PG hunt for a half dozen animals, including taxidermy.

If I chose to purchase an elk hunt in an area for Premium bulls, we're talking the same dollars, or possibly more, for a single animal, which doesn't include travel, tips, taxidermy work, etc.

Point Creep - I was told by an employee of the Colorado Game and Fish Dept. of an interesting fact -

For the top 2 elk units in the state, it would take SEVENTY FIVE YEARS for all of the applicant with max points to draw the tag.

It would seem those with less than max would have no chance unless the system changes.

Another bummer is the up front costs. Year to date, the advance payment required to put in for draws is over $9,000. And the application season is not over. That's a lot of up front cash.

There is a dollar creep as well. It used to be only a few states charged for licenses. Now, if a hunter wanted to fully participate in the draws, it would cost well over $1,000 in non refundable license fees and point fees.

IMO, most of these species in the draw can be hunted in BC with an outfitter, guaranteed tags. True, you cannot find the Southwest's monster elk north of the border. But you can hunt them every year. The Canada option is looking better and better.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

Besides, I'm not talking about hunting any ole unit, I'm talking about PREMIUM units. Here in CO, I can hunt deer and elk every other year by drawing a tag, which I'm fine with.

Premium? IMO just because the Carters or other publications call a unit "Premium" doesnt make it so. I would NEVER wait that long for a tag.

There are big bucks and bulls in lesser known units that a person can draw every other year or pay $500 and get a voucher every year. Just last year I found a 200"+ buck, 2 over 190" and a handful of 180" type bucks in a unit thats EASY to draw. I also found a 360"+ bull and a handful of 320"-340" bulls in there.

To me, "premium" means a unit that has potential to produce giant bucks and bulls that nobody realizes is there. Let the other guys fight for the highly publicized tags, I dont want em

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D ...IMO, most of these species in the draw can be hunted in BC with an outfitter, guaranteed tags. True, you cannot find the Southwest's monster elk north of the border. But you can hunt them every year. The Canada option is looking better and better.

This is exactly why I quit hunting elk in the USA along with a few other game animals...sick of not getting drawn, putting out good cash and waiting to see if I'm drawn, waiting on refunds, etc. etc.
Now I hunt deer in some states with easy or no draws and my home state. For the rest of my hunting I'll stay in my home state or travel out of the USA....damm shame hunting has come to this!!

Graybird,
Try drawing a license of any kind in New Mexico. We do not have any kind of a point system, but I can't see how that would help. I'm with you about hunting Africa, its a lot more bang for your buck.

Drummond, I would love to tag along on one of those colorado hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
Graybird,
Try drawing a license of any kind in New Mexico. We do not have any kind of a point system, but I can't see how that would help. I'm with you about hunting Africa, its a lot more bang for your buck.

I'm with ya on this one! It seems much more logical than to play the points game in other states.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

Besides, I'm not talking about hunting any ole unit, I'm talking about PREMIUM units. Here in CO, I can hunt deer and elk every other year by drawing a tag, which I'm fine with.

Premium? IMO just because the Carters or other publications call a unit "Premium" doesnt make it so. I would NEVER wait that long for a tag.

There are big bucks and bulls in lesser known units that a person can draw every other year or pay $500 and get a voucher every year. Just last year I found a 200"+ buck, 2 over 190" and a handful of 180" type bucks in a unit thats EASY to draw. I also found a 360"+ bull and a handful of 320"-340" bulls in there.

To me, "premium" means a unit that has potential to produce giant bucks and bulls that nobody realizes is there. Let the other guys fight for the highly publicized tags, I dont want em

Drummond,

I understand 100% of what you're saying. But, in these areas where you found all of these monster deer, what % of them were on public land versus private land?

Thanks,

I never stepped foot on private ground when I was in these units. 100% public

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I never stepped foot on private ground when I was in these units. 100% public

I obviously I need to take some lessons from you then! I took a 150 class deer in 2009 the last morning of the season, which I was extrememly happy with!!!

I was told you could get monster elk in New Zealand (not red stags but elk) for a very reasonable price.
I've been offered a hunt for chamy, tahr and stag (high silver) for $10k. I think he said the elk were ~$4k and these elk were all mid 300's.

it is highly likely those are behind high fences. Depending on where one goes, this may or may not be sporting.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I never stepped foot on private ground when I was in these units. 100% public

I obviously I need to take some lessons from you then! I took a 150 class deer in 2009 the last morning of the season, which I was extrememly happy with!!!

Graybird - Everything Drum says is 100% true. Lots of big elk/deer here in Colorado, on public land, in areas you can draw with 1-3 points. Guided em, hunted em, and personally killed em. Just keep LOOKING!!!

I can sure understand your frustration, but like a couple other guys have pointed out-- don't worry about the "couple premium" units. Lets say the CDOW gave all those unit 10 ML elk tags in a random draw. What would the odds be? 3% or so (which equals 30+ years).

The point is simple- there is not enough supply to meet the demand. If they gave those hard to draw tags out randomly then I still would never apply there. I would apply where I can actually hunt. Where I can draw and hunt. I gave you some examples of how to do that and stand a chance at killing a great animal. We may never draw the Strip or the Henry Mtns or a 44 4th season, but that won't make or break my hunting.

Here are a couple more examples, all public lands-
-My wife drew a Colorado 2nd choice tag last year and shot a nice mid 150s buck the 2nd day of the hunt. Total cost of the hunt, with gas, hotel, tag, food, atv reg, etc... was less than $750 as a non-resident.
-I drew a different CO unit as a second choice and chased a 180-190 typ, passed on 3 bucks better than 160 and missed a mid-160s on my last day there. I slept in a tent and paid less than $600 for the hunt.
-We hunt a General area of WY for elk every other year. I have killed a mature bull every year. I have shot an 8 year old bull and a guy in our camp killed a 380 and we have killed a few 340+ bulls. Better bulls than they kill in most of CO's best elk units. Total cost for the hunt is less than $1,000.
-There is an archery only area in Utah for mule deer. Every year the unit produces multiple 200"+ bucks and of course many 4 year old deer which won't stretch the tape, but are solid deer. The hunt runs for 4 months. Non-residents can draw the tag every year. The whole thing can easily be done for less than $1,000 as a non-resident.

Like I said, don't paint yourself into a corner and focus on a few high-demand units. I will sign onto your frustration on certain point schemes, as I have 3 young kids. I will teach them that there are great hunts to be had, either through learning or money.

Hope you find what you are looking for as those areas are out there. Drum and Aaron also seem to think along those same lines.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Graybird - Everything Drum says is 100% true. Lots of big elk/deer here in Colorado, on public land, in areas you can draw with 1-3 points. Guided em, hunted em, and personally killed em. Just keep LOOKING!!!

Aaron,

I know he's telling the truth. I guess I'm frustrated there are some hunts/areas I'd like to do, but likely never will because of the point creep. I'm at the point of redefining what I'll move forward with in the future. For the money I lay down every spring just for a chance at a tag, I could go on a nice Namibian safari, or save for a second year and hunt a buff or leopard. I know you get your money back on most of these tags but it is still crazy how much money goes out the door when applying for these tags.

What makes it more of an issue for me is when I think about my boys and what they'll be faced with in the future and these limited draw hunts.

MC,

I understand where you're coming from. As you could guess, I'm trying to determine what I'm going to do outside of CO this year. Basically, driving myself crazy. I might just sit back and do little outside of CO and see how things go.

Thanks,

Graybird,

It is very easy to get hung up on what you "can't" hunt. There are only a small handful of elk units in CO that take more than 15 points (which is a lot). Probably 95% of the state is open to hunters with fewer points. There are incredible hunts in many of these units.

Sort of like complaining that I can't draw a sheep tag every year. There will never, ever be enough sheep tags in the US so everybody who wants to can sheep hunt each year.

The same thing can be said about Africa. Only a very, very small number of hunters will ever be able to afford the 28 day, full bag Tanzania safari. You can sit around and feel sorry for yourself that you aren't one of the lucky few, or focus your attetion on all the other great hunts Africa has to offer.

There are great hunts in the US that require few points. Some hunts you (and I) probably will never draw regardless of the points structure. And some we will draw, which makes it all the more special.

Focus on what you can do, and enjoy the hunts. I've drawn a few premium hunts over the years that didn't turn out any better than the more "ordinary" hunts I do every year. Unrealistic expectations typically accompany these so called premium hunts. Occassionally the premium hunts do pan out, however, which keeps some of us trying to draw....

Good Luck,

Bill

For obvious reasons I'm not going to start mentioning which units I like to hunt and areas where I was finding these big deer and elk.

I think that every single unit in the state has the potential to produce a 200" deer. I think that the most successful guys out there have a unit they can hunt consistently and know that unit as good as a person can know it. Find a place you like and spend as much time as you can there and you'll start to figure it out pretty quick

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
Blah Blah Blah
Bill

William Phifer, what are you still doing here? I thought I told you to FUCK OFF.

In case you forgot, these are the people you ripped off when you stiffed the tribal council on your last visit to Zimbabwe







DO THEY LOOK LIKE THEY CAN AFFORD TO PAY FOR YOUR SAFARI?!



Sincerest apologies to all but that dick. He just sets me off.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I think that the most successful guys out there have a unit they can hunt consistently and know that unit as good as a person can know it. Find a place you like and spend as much time as you can there and you'll start to figure it out pretty quick

Bingo!! Drum's done this before. That is, after I told him where to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bingo!! Drum's done this before. That is, after I told him where to go.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bingo!! Drum's done this before. That is, after I told him where to go.

You guys kill me!

quote:

Bingo!! Drum's done this before. That is, after I told him where to go.

And I taught him how

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bingo!! Drum's done this before. That is, after I told him where to go.

You guys kill me!

Graybird, I'm tellin ya man. Last two years, every time I looked in the rear-view mirror, who did I see??? Drummond "freakin" Lindsey, tryin to learn my secret spots! You believe that crap??

Aaron
as long as he isn't leading you to you're good spots,you still got a chance

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
Aaron
as long as he isn't leading you to you're good spots,you still got a chance

Aaron needs a head start to make it fair

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bingo!! Drum's done this before. That is, after I told him where to go.

You guys kill me!

Graybird, I'm tellin ya man. Last two years, every time I looked in the rear-view mirror, who did I see??? Drummond "freakin" Lindsey, tryin to learn my secret spots! You believe that crap??

I'm glad you don't know what truck I drive, I might be following too!

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bingo!! Drum's done this before. That is, after I told him where to go.

You guys kill me!

Graybird, I'm tellin ya man. Last two years, every time I looked in the rear-view mirror, who did I see??? Drummond "freakin" Lindsey, tryin to learn my secret spots! You believe that crap??

I'm glad you don't know what truck I drive, I might be following too!

Yep, next thing I know it will be Drummond, Graybird and Ravenr in my rearview. We can just have our own little parade! Anybody else want to join???

When do we leave? I'll let you boys shoot the tape stretchers and I'll just shoot the crappy genetic 6 year old bucks.

Does RavenR even hunt mule deer? All I ever see are photos of him posing with giant bull elk and huge ante-goats.

nope, i don't know anything about mule deer

quote:

Originally posted by MC:
Does RavenR even hunt mule deer? All I ever see are photos of him posing with giant bull elk and huge ante-goats.

He's one of the very best! I was very luck to work with him quite a few years back and I learned a lot.

ravenr, any chance you'll post a pic of that giant non-typical we chatted about yesterday?

I knew he hunted mule deer! I was just being a troll trying to get him to post some photos. It worked. Mule deer are a passion of mine and while not quiet as successful at stretching the tape as you boys, I have killed some nice mature bucks.

RavenR- how is the winter up your way? I plan on being back in region F next year to hunt with my 13 year old boy and am hoping the winter isn't taking its toll on future prospects for him to shoot at.

drum
my scanner is down and the pics are 35mm

MC
it has been a LONG, SUBZERO winter in my neck of the woods,been out some and havn't seen
a big impact.
what are you looking for?
sorry for the thread hijack

One thing I haven't seen mentioned (maybe I just overlooked it) is to look at muzzleloader or bow hunts. In NM it's very hard to draw a rifle tag in nearly any unit, even some of the crappy ones, but some units are much easier to draw if you'll hunt with a ML or bow.

I shot the deer below after buying a leftover tag over the counter after the regular draw:


Just this year I shot this guy with my ML in a unit that had tags leftover after the draw.


I shot this deer in 2006 in Wyoming on a "general" hunt with no preference points:


These were all public land hunts, no points, fairly easy draw. Granted, they're not true trophies like some posted, but I'd say they're respectable deer that were damn fun to hunt.

What I am gathering from this thread is that I need to get the hell out of the northeast. I'm 23, and am going to start applying this year.

Speaking of moving, what state has the best looking women?

What kind of woman are you looking for?

If you like sheep--Wyoming

Hippies--Colorado

Chicks that will share their Copenhagen--Montana

Looking for a woman that provides heat in the winter and shade in the summer--New Mexico

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
What kind of woman are you looking for?

If you like sheep--Wyoming

Hippies--Colorado

Chicks that will share their Copenhagen--Montana

Looking for a woman that provides heat in the winter and shade in the summer--New Mexico

That's the funniest thing I have read on this forum.

Was thinking something like this: