Some debate in another thread leads me to ask the opinions of people from all parts of the US and Canada. What do you guys see?

Here some articles I've come across. Some are written with a certain bias but all seem to have some valid points:

http://www.timberwolfinformati...viewnews.cfm?ID=2026

http://www.westmorelandconserv...rg/CCWolfCoyote.html

http://www.projectcoyote.org/n...es/news_eastern.html

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc...w.asp?a=458&q=150783

Back in 75-80s, I was trapping in TN when the coyote first was coming into notice there. Beforhand, up and down the eastcoat, there had been a great deal of scare hype and pulp magazine articles about the coming of a ferocious "coy-dog" that was gonna make it perilous to walk outside after dark. At the time I was trapping, Memphis State Univ. (now Memphis Univ) was doing a study on the coyotes coming into TN and so any coyotes I caught, I turned over to them. And I learnt a great deal about the eastern coyote and their migration.
The wolf had been the limiting factor on the coyote and as the wolf was killed off in Minn and upstate NY and on across the upper U.S. and the east coast, the coyote filled the vacuum. Along the way, they picked up some wolf genes, and, a lot of dog genes. The young males, seeking new territory, would move to places that didn't have a breeding population of coyotes and so they, being dogs, would breed with whatever was available. Once there was a stable population of coyotes, the coyotes will only breed within themselves and will usually kill a domesticated dog.
During their migration down the east coast, they learned to modify their behaviour to better blend in with the urban environment. I don't believe the eastern coyote does as much howling as the western.
I think the eastern coyote is more of a pest with regards to cattle than the western but east and west, there is a whole lot of meanness laid off on coyotes that is people's free running dogs and poorly trained hunting dogs.
The eastern fox and coon trappers were kinda looking forward to the coyotes moving into their area so they could trap some. They (we) found out in a hurry, there ain't no dumb coyotes.
I trapped a lot of coyotes in TN. In OK, I paid several house notes with coyotes pelts and kept it up intil a yote wasn't worth skinning and I have never seen a coyote that would push 50# much less these 75# monsters that people post about. They may exist, but I haven't seen them.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
...there is a whole lot of meanness laid off on coyotes that is people's free running dogs and poorly trained hunting dogs. ...

You nailed that one. A "collar" does not mean it won't chase and harm stock. Does help while dragging them to a hole though.

From 68 into the 80's I trapped yotes I have hunted them with hounds the last years until know. the biggest one weighted on a accurate scale was 52 lbs that was one big male yote. I would say the avg weight in Wis.25 to 35 pounds.

This one, shot in the Adirondacks, was 59 lbs.

My observances in TN match Beeman. I killed one of the first ones I encountered in 84 or 85. It was a female that had recently whelped and probably weighed 35-40 pounds.

Slug's observations in the north do not surprise me though, it makes sense that their coyotes would be considerably larger than southern specimens, just like their deer, they have to bulk up to survive the harsher winters. There also could be a bit of genetics involved also, with a winter kill to deal with only the stronger (larger?) survive.

Regards,

Dan

www.dec.ny.gov
According to them coyote/dog and coyote/wolf crosses are rare in the state .DNA studies put an end to many rumours. They can go to 70lbs.

I apparently wasn't looking in the right spot. I couldn't find anything on your link.
I think, on the east coast, the time for hybrid coy dogs and wolf/coyote crosses are long past. Unless they are man manipulated. There is a well established breeding population of coyotes on the east coast and when they have that, they will breed amongst themselves.
There has been enough studies done that do agree that the eastern coyote is quite different from the western. And much of that difference is attributed to the genes gathered thru outcrossing as they migrated eastward.
Me? All's I know is an eastern coyote in a trap displays a lot more aggression than a western coyote. And the eastern is slightly bigger. That last bit of info doesn't come from weighing them but from toting them back to the truck.

I've killed two NM coyotes, and about 20 in ga/al. NM were 30 and 35 both males. most of the ones in GA are in the 25-35 lb range, but I killed one dog that was pushing 50. They howl a lot in rural areas where I hunt deer in central ga and on some land my gf's parents own in west ga. They sound like a pack of wolves often, and can get into groups of 5-10 at times. Very smart all around, and quick to boot. I'm glad they don't have guns because they'd outdraw me every time.

Eastern coyotes are assholes, and talk funny. They can't drive a car without getting pissed at the guy next to them. They are experts at flagging down a taxi. They aren't worth any more than a western coyote, but they think they are. Wait, those are Texas coyotes. Nevermind.

Western coyotes eat what they can, and are happy to be next to other western coyotes. They take care of each other,and will team up on a jack rabbit if that is what it takes to feed the the family. They don't trust anyone on an ATV. They are just happy to be alive.

A very interesting thread -contributed to by people who obviously know what they are talking about. As a New Yorker, I well remember the "coydog" period and certainly agree that it is long past and that we are looking at a real "Eastern coyote" breed.(Too bad we couldn't convince, at the time, our NY DEC who refused, for years to accept that we had coyotes, real coyotes, running in NY) I shot one (about 25 years ago)and was surprised at how big he was (maybe 35 lbs. I still remember matching his weight (mentally) to a big boar coon) -and yet so easily knocked down (12 ga., #6's field load at about 40 yards -but right in the face as he looked at me. {I had been out for winter ruffed grouse in January} I did have to run up and finish him) He's a smart critter - but he always will be vermin to me. (That coyote and his companions were eating at a small doe before she was even dead. I know, because I finished off the doe too. I hate coyotes and sympathize with westerners who have to deal with them. It's one critter I would be happy to see go extinct. (Now, I'm on PETA's enemies list!)

Here is some pictures of a typical coyote we have running around NJ. Think 35 miles from NYC.

There have been coyotes in Central Park , NYC recently ! Much of the old Coydog sighting were assumptions. Typically coyotes kill dogs and that's why we don't have feral dog or cat problems here.Perhaps some coydogs shed the dog genes over time or perhaps there never were dog genes. Modern DNA studies show many things !BTW while NY continues to deny mountain lions in NY, in VT they've been doing DNA studies of scat and find there are mountain lions there !!

Like J_Zola, I too live in NJ, albeit the NW corner of the state near the PA and NY borders, which is quite rural. Coyotes are becoming a regular occurance here...we take several of them every Deer season on mine and adjacent properties. They don't seem to howl, but can be heard yipping in a group at night, I presume after a successful hunt. Don't seem to be a problem yet, but they are pretty intelligent and innovative creatures, so we'll have to see.

Just out of curiousity, while we're on this, does anyone have any reliable research or data on when coyotes spread from the West across the Mississippi River into the eastern and southern regions? It might help explain somewhat the decline of quail and rabbits in certain areas. Coyotes I've seen in Mid-South rural areas go back to at least 1970. Their appearance in urban areas I think has been in the last 10-20 years.

See my first post. They spread acrost the top of the U.S. and came down. There were coyotes in NY and PA before there were coyotes in KY and TN.
That's according to a study done by Memphis Univ. back in the 80's.

stillbeeman:

I am definitely not trying to argue with someone with your background in coyotes. I do have to say that I believe that the coyote/dog crosses that existed in NY for years (and back in the late '50s) must have had some influence on the sizing of coyotes. Just now, a NJ poster has pic of a coyote that is distinctly more "leggier" than I remember pictures of Western coyotes (They had a "slinkier" look, like a fox). I also have to mention that at the time that the "coydog" phase arose, I never heard any comment from very experienced people in the Adiroundacks (our most northernmost woods and nearest to Canada) about coyotes coming down from Canada. In fact, it has been legendary for decades in the Adiroundacks that moose and wolves worked their way across a frozen St.Lawrence river in winter to get to the Adiroundacks - I just never heard this about coyotes. That's just me and I'm not trying to pick a fight,believe me! I really wish a real scientific study were done about the progress of coyotes from being a Western animal to being across the nation. ((Proof of the need - You are from a Southern state and I'm from a Northeast state -and we are both talking about coyotes we have seen. On this thread I read of coyotes in NJ -the most densely populated state in the Union! Yeah, I think we have to do something about the coyote {and overcome the propaganda of the people who think he looks like a dog so therefore leave him alone - Well, so does a wolf and I don't want to protect him when he comes into my province,either!)

gerrypeters, oh for sure the accural of dog and wolf genes had/has a great deal to do with the size and profile of the eastern coyote. (you understand that I ain't this smart. This info was feed to me by researchers )
As someone else posted, I would imagine that you folks up north would have a larger animal than we would because all your animals tend to run larger. Plus, as a guess, maybe the mix with isolated, canadian wolves would be closer while by the time the coyotes got down here, that gene was pretty thinned out.

stillbeeman:

You say you "ain't this smart". Well, move over because you're smarter than me who never figured out what you did in pointing out that our coyotes are in the north -and, of course, all animals seems to be larger the farther north we go. (I saw white tail does in New Brunswick that dumbfounded me in their size. Even in my own state the deer in the Adiroundack mountains are bigger, much bigger, on average than deer in the Catskill mountains (about 150 -200 miles farther south). I saw a porcupine in Ontario that I almost didn't recognize - because he was half again as big as a NY porcupine) So, take a bow, Tennessee, I think you have given a really good explanation for the differences between coyotes across the country. (I used to hunt black bear at an Ontario lodge run by a husband/wife team. The guy had a degree in wild life biology. He told me something I always remembered. Animals are bigger in the north because they need the body mass to generate body heat to survive the winters. Just that simple)

Look what this one was carrying!

The 'yote got ET?

You pop that one, Slug?

Looks like a goat or sheep's head?

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Just out of curiousity, while we're on this, does anyone have any reliable research or data on when coyotes spread from the West across the Mississippi River into the eastern and southern regions? It might help explain somewhat the decline of quail and rabbits in certain areas. Coyotes I've seen in Mid-South rural areas go back to at least 1970. Their appearance in urban areas I think has been in the last 10-20 years.

No correlation whatsoever.
I hear the same thing about the effect of coyotes on turkeys in the East, but look at turkey poulations where coyote numbers are high: Texas, Nebraska, etc. They have no shortage of turkeys, despite high coyote pops.
There are no quail and fewer rabbits for one simple reason: A significant decline in suitable habitat. I live in southern Virginia, which used to be a great quail region. I can drive you around for an hour and we won't find more than one or two isolated areas that might, might have a covey of birds. The rest is neatly-mowed pastures and lawns separated by mature hardwoods (with no edge cover), some crop fields (picked clean and no edge cover) and planted pines. What habitat remains is fragmented and isolated.

There has alway's been a canine in the Adirondack park. Wolves,Coyote's Coy-dogs whatever. They have never been completely wiped out, Maybe we had all three But I can tell you first hand what we have now is a Coyote which avg 30-40#, can get larger, But I have never heard a howl of a wolf like I have heard in Idaho, in the adirondacks. Maybe the Coyote's we have evolved from all three. We killed 6 this Deer season and 4 looked alike (more like a western ) 2 looked more like a wolf. All from a 10 mile sq area. I wish I had taken pictures. I know they have gotten smaller as I still have some of my Great grandfathers Traps (He was a pro trapper/ furbuyer in the Adirondacks) and they are the same size as the wolf traps that they still use in the Far North. Out of the ones we got this year the smallest weight was low 20's highest low 40's. In the last 3 years we have killed a couple 50#. I disagree with the coyote killing the small game off. Look to the air. Hawks/Owls/Eagles HOE's are basically left unchecked. Coyote eat whatever is easiest for them to get.

Back in the 80s, I used to call and trap quite a few coyotes, and in my best season ever -- when I wound up with 80-some-odd 'yote pelts -- I did trap 2 which were definitely crosses -- the coy-dog, if you will. I don't recall the exact weights anymore but seem to recall that both were between 50 and 55 pounds, a good deal heavier than the typical adult coyote in this area.

Here is a typical central Texas coyote:



Here's a Wyoming 'yote:



Here's a soon-to-be-good coyote (also south central TX):



...and a couple more area coyotes that were introduced to my Contenders:

I dont know anything about coyotes ( 'cept what I read above ) cos we dont have them - but I do know a little about baby bovines and that dead calfs head looks like it might have been still-born , rather than killed.

Are coyotes scavengers as well as hunters ? Logic suggest yes , but you folk have practical experience here ...?

This one was shot in the Cascade Mountains this year during Elk season. It weighed just over 50 pounds.

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:
The 'yote got ET?

You pop that one, Slug?

I wish. I found that on this post:

Yote killed calf

The story I got, and this is second hand, about the eastern is that once the calf is up and walking, it has little to worry about from a coyote or a pack. But the problem is the coyotes will worry the cow while she is having the calf and catch it as she has it or as she is fighting them over the new calf, she will walk on it herself.

To answer the one fellow's question, yes a coyote will eat most anything. That's why they and the coon and possum thrive in an urban environment. It does keep in check the population of cats and miniture poodles which is a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by bbruce:
Hawks/Owls/Eagles HOE's are basically left unchecked.

Damned HOEs. Left alone they'll take over the block, then the whole neighborhood!

JK. Interesting input.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
This one was shot in the Cascade Mountains this year during Elk season. It weighed just over 50 pounds.

Nice choice of platforms for the pic; the ubiquitous disposed-by-a-scumbag-carpet rock.

Here is a small Oklahoma female 'yote from 2-3 years ago.

I ,once was hunting for ruffed grouse in February (in NY) and came up over a rise and came upon a pack of, maybe 4-5 coyotes that had a doe down (there was snow on the ground and I was moving very slowly) -they were already eating at her- one of them looked up at me -and- with a 12 and #6 shot (field load) I hit him full in the face -and killed him (to my great pleasure) I fired at the others who scrambled off, but, of course, did nothing. (although I always hoped I gave them a sting in their asses) To this day. I have hated coyotes -precisely because of that image of a predator eating an an animal still alive. I am totally with the Westerners. Shoot'em on sight! (Don't the Westerners say - Shoot first, ask questions later?)

A calf is not safe once up and walking, but it helps. A dairy farmer friend of mine has had several calves with scratches on their foreheads from coyotes attempting to get at them. There is no doubt that a pack would be able to take one down, but once all the afterbirth smell is off a calf I think there is much less appeal to a calf compared to other animals. For example, during coyote season some of the stillborn calves may end up out in the back field and can be untouched by coyotes for weeks on end. A deer carcass would never last that long. They just seem a little more skittish about calves and cow carcasses, but eventually they get comfortable and begin dining.

Coyotes will eat just about anything alive and many dead things. Everything from seeds, nuts, berries, apples, fruits, birds, crayfish, cactus, rodents, road kills, etc. Around my neck of the woods their diet is primarily voles, moles, mice, rabbits and deer, especially carcasses.

I hunt snowshoe hare all winter and seldom see coyote tracks around deer yards till March. Coyotes are now eating apples that are left on the tree's around here right now along with the carcasses of deer I left in certain easy to get to places. Coyotes are basically very lazy when it comes to feeding IMO. Very seldom do they Kill healthy adult deer unless there is heavy snow

quote:

Originally posted by bbruce:
I hunt snowshoe hare all winter and seldom see coyote tracks around deer yards till March. Coyotes are now eating apples that are left on the tree's around here right now along with the carcasses of deer I left in certain easy to get to places. Coyotes are basically very lazy when it comes to feeding IMO. Very seldom do they Kill healthy adult deer unless there is heavy snow

These were shot today (Jan 2) guess this deer didn't get the memo.About 50 south of Albany by the Ashokan Resevoir.....

bbruce wrote:

quote:

Coyotes are basically very lazy when it comes to feeding IMO.

---

Coyotes are one of nature's best opportunists but are anything but lazy. I've observed them for enough years and in enough situations to tell you a coyote is just the opposite, in fact.

dinsdale-Thanks for taking and posting those photos. That was a beautiful buck...

I back tracked that kill as I found it in a gulley.The yotes knocked him down atleast 4 times,over a 3/4 mile chase,they also crossed a major road in the process.Near as I can figure there were 3 together,one has huge paws.

I have hunted this piece of state land a couple of times for bear,and see big tracks from coyotes often.

Couldn't get a shot on this deers big brother during deer season,but saw him this morning in the same area.Biggest deer I have ever seen in the wild while hunting.

We've killed a number of easterns over the last 15 years or so. Smallest was 32-ish. Biggest was 54-55. Several have been over 50. The eastern is definitely a tough customer. But evidently no more tolerant of a 50 grainer at 4000+ than the westerns. This one was a 34 lb. female.



Here's a link to some interesting research:

http://www.easterncoyoteresear...ncoyotegenetics.html