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| <dr280> |
Brad, Very good point about a VERY large elk- as long as I wasn't tenderizing too much meat-(making good shots) I would also shoot til he fell myself. In hopes of an elk hunt- very soon if I can get the plan straight with some buddies. The best part- it will be a bowhunt. I love shooting as much as the next guy- but like a lot of guys here- I love bowhunting just as much. I made a "deal" with my uncle- he makes me a longbow- and I go elk hunting with him. Now- this won't fit the matchking thread by any means- but I have a self imposed limit with my 65# stick- to 30 yards. Yes- it does work- 3 whitetails in 3 years. The ultimate test- a majestic elk. Ahhhhhhh- someday- and the TRACKING will be just as sweet as the pursuit... good shooting Dave | ||
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| <jeremy w> |
Anyone that claims dropping an animal in its tracks is anything more than luck hasn't been hunting large game much. I wouldn't recommend shooting anything unless you know you can kill it. Obviously, while you can get advice on everything else here, you aren't going to be able to make a post: "there's an elk in front of me, should I take the shot?". | ||
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One of Us |
280, I've hunted with a longbow, though I no longer bowhunt... they're my favorite bows, particularly the smaller, indian-style "flat-bow". I particularly like what "Great Northern" produces in, I believe, Michigan. What wood(s), Osage Orange? Brad | |||
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| <heavy varmint> |
I shot my first Whitetail Buck with a 300 WinMag using 180 grain Corelokts at the great distance of 12 yards believe it or not. The Corelokt comepletly obliviated his heart and made a coffee cup sized exit hole but the deer had spotted me just before the shot and still managed to get about 75 yards.........Does the 300 suck or what? | ||
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one of us |
No animal will notice the difference of receiving a good placed 150/165 grain bullet from a 308 or from 30-06 at 100/150 yards. Why? because at that distance thay are nearly the same. Does the old '06 sucks? Maybe more time in the field and less in the computer will help  LG | |||
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| <JohnT> |
GSF 1200, You're being a bit tough on the .308. If you recovered all the bullets then your targets must have all expired. At what point in their deaths did you become dissatisfied? Any rabbit I shot with a .308 was clean cut in half. I have shot both .270 & .308. I currently have a .270 But I did have a .308 & it was quite devastating on pigs, roos, fabbits & foxes. Was using 150gn Hornadies. It may not be the be all & end all but its an amazingly efficient cartridge. Regards, | ||
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one of us |
I watched a PBS documentary on elephants awhile back which included a scene of a control officer culling a herd with an FN FAL "assault" rifle, caliber 308, fired semi-automatically. He bowled over 6 animals with 6 rounds, all within about 10 seconds, no follow-up shots necessary. I was impressed. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: I'm not comparing anything. But I will. A suspect hit a cop in the chest with a 8mm soft point. The shot killed the cop, but in his allocated 8 seconds, he managed to pull his weapon and put his assailant down. He didn't kill the suspect; he put him in a wheelchair forever. The cop died at the scene. I'm not disagreeing or argreeing. I'm just saying there are so many variables in delivering a wound that even when a guranteed fatal would is delivered, there is still a chance that the game animal can run a distance. How fast can the fastest human run the hundred yard dash? How fast a came a deer or elk run the same distance? That's my point. 8 seconds is a long distance for a running deer. I've made the knock down shot and the shot where the game ran and collapsed. Neither surprise me. Neither necssarily reflect on my rifle or on my shooint ability. I would like the game to fall when I shoot. If it doesn't, I'm prepared to track and not to blame my weapon for not delivering what is impossible to deliver each and every time. | |||
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| one of us |
I keep reading about Elk getting away even with a well placed shot. If the elk got away, who looked at the shot to see if it was "well placed"? This is fun! I stumbled on this site by accident. It is turning into great fun. And a learning experience. It's like standing around a campfire and hashing over favorite rifles, cartridges and loads with hunting buddies. It's giving me a fix until I can actually fire up a campfire in elk camp this fall. [This message has been edited by RogerK (edited 04-08-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
Brad is right here. I live and hunt in SW Montana and have killed many deer and elk. I also shoot a 338. I have seen animals go down instantly when shot by a 30-30. On the other hand a few years ago I shot a bull elk 4 times in the chest with the 338 and it just stood there. Some people have asked why I continued to shoot after I knew the elk was hit hard. My answer is the same as Brads, I shoot until the elk is on the ground. Elk are a different ball game than deer, they can and do get away with solid hits. Looking back on the elk I have killed and saw killed I would guess that the average elk went about 100 yards after a solid chest hit regardless of caliber used. Unless a head or neck shot (not recommended) is used an instant kills on elk are just not realistic. | |||
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| one of us |
By the way GSF if you don't want that 308 sell it to me cheap. My wife is way to deadly with the 308 she has now so maybe I can get her to use yours so and not kill as much stuff my freezer is full!  [This message has been edited by mtelkhunter (edited 04-08-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
Nice try, but even with a catchy title, you are still not going to get 35 pages. | |||
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one of us |
Hey people I know about a way to make any animal drop in their tracks without using a gun that ratles your teeth out. Dig a hole! A big deep hole with sharp sticks in it. Then any animal will drop even if it is one of these armor platet rabits that I read about abow. By the way I like the 308 win. I have shoot moose and roedeer with it without any problems. Johan | |||
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| <Elliot Viker> |
Where is Col. Cooper and his scout rifle? | ||
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| one of us |
It is a poor musician that blames his instrument.... | |||
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| one of us |
GSF1200, Maybe the recoil is so bad on the .308 that it is causing a flinch. Try a slingshot on those rabbits, and then work up to a 22LR................ | |||
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| <X-Ring> |
RodgerK I can't speak for any one else here, but I have seen bullets hit elk that someone else is shooting at, and yes saw one run away afterwards. Haven't you every seen a bullet impact an animal? I the case of the elk I spoke of earlier in this thread I could see the blood and foom ozing from one of the holes before I took the neck shot. My buddy standing right there was yelling nice shot after each shot also. So I asume he was seeing the impact of my shots as he wasn't rocking with the recoil of my 338. Your right there is a heck of a lot to learn here on these forums. I can't get enough! X-Ring ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
I didn't read most of this thread. I just skipped to the end to give my response..."NO". | |||
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| one of us |
GSF1200, Just for the book if you hit any animal through the top of the heart at the instance his front feet hit the ground in a dead run then it forces a huge rush of blood to the brain and causes stroke and he will die instantly every time, mouse or elephant... For instant kills use a light high velocity bullet like a varmint bullet that explodes inside, this pretty well works most of the time on deer, but it can sure fail miserably on rare ocassions but fail never the less.. For a sure positive kill use a 180 gr. light constructed such as a Power point or even a Nosler at about 2700 in your .308. and follow the good blood trail 50 or so yards but forgot that pipe dream of instant kills and go for sure positive kills, with good blood trails and short runs. ------------------ | |||
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| <Mike Dettorre> |
Hmm now thats an interesting statement "an impact velocity of over 3000 fps". Since most non magnum cartridges have muzzle velocity under under 2900 fps and the magnums are around 3000 for any of the appropriate weight for caliber bullets (excpet for the very biggest) I am trying to figure out how velocity increases or does not decrease down range...I better go back to school. as I recall difference between an 06 and an 08 is about 150 fps at the muzzle. At a hundred yds thats probably down to a 100 fps and moving at nominally 2400 fps...so that 100/2400 or 4.167%. Yeah that should make a big difference. ------------------ The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner | ||
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| one of us |
No, the .308 Win. does not suck. It shoots.  I've been mostly a deer hunter for 52 years, starting out with an old 94 Wichester and have killed more than my fair share of California Blacktails,and Rocky Mountain Mule deer. The blacktails were taken mostly in the rain forest areas of Northern California many years ago. This is an area where if the deer runs more than 25 yards, you've lost it. A 30-06 with a 170 gr. 30-30 bullet would usually drop them almost instantly and those that didn't drop ran less than 10 yards. That same principle would work with the .308 as well.Later, when I moved to nevada, my 9.5 pound Springfield got to be too darn heavy at the 8,000-9,000 foot elevations I was hunting. I found a Remington 660 at a good price in .308. Now, up to that point, I had absolutely no respect for a .308 Win. Afterall, it just wasn't up to a 30-06, now was it? Well, I still have that particular rifle. It's on it's third stock now. That reifle has taken 17 Mule Deer with 17 shots. None ran more that 50 yards. I've taken deer with that rifle, a Win. Mod. 70, several Ruger RSI's, all in .308 Win. The longest shot was 427 paces, witnessed, and the shortest at 6 feet. Not one of those deer went more than 50 yards, most either dropping on the spot or only staggering a few feet before expiring. In my experience, the .308 kills just as well as the .270, 30=06, .280 Rem., 30-30, and several others I could mention. My bullet choice in all my .308's is the 165 gr. Speer SPFB hot core at 2550 to 2610 FPS, depending on which rifle I am shooting. FWIW. If you shoot a deer when it's heart is full of blood, it should drop on the spot. However, if the heart has just pumped a load of fresh blood to the brain, then the brain has been oxygenated and the animal can run like hell for as long as the 8 seconds a poster mentioned. That's just a theory on why they run, which I agree with. No, the .308 definitly does not suck. Paul B. | |||
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one of us |
The .308 winchester is one of the greatest deer cartridges ever produced!!!! | |||
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| One of Us |
Paul B, nice post. BA | |||
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| <MontanaMarine> |
It never ceases to amaze me how some feel the .308Win is an inadequate big game round. It easily outperforms many older proven rounds that are frequently used for elk and moose. The .303 british, 30-40 Krag, and 300 Savage are some that come quickly to mind. MM | ||
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| <abnrigger> |
I love the .308! It is accurate and powerful! It is also made in some of the handiest rifles. It does not suck! | ||
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| <Ben Rapp> |
I have a Remington 788 .308 Win. and I have nothing but good to say about it! Its a wonderful round in my eyes. I have taken several deer with it, with no complaints. I now use a Pre '64 Model 70 rechambered for 7mm STW, and even though it is ballistically superior, it kills them just as dead. You may just be shooting bad rounds. Try a different bullet, and see how that works. | ||
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| <X-Ring> |
Ben My 308 is a Rem 788 also. Man those are good shooters. I have redone, and free floated my stock so it looks alittle better but other than that it is stock and it shoots circles around some higher dollar rigs I have shot. Hows yours for accuracy? X-Ring ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
quote:
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| one of us |
quote: I shoot .270's and 7mm rem mags, it's easy to have target impacts over 3000fps! You should have seen a running deer I hit with a 150gr ballistic tip! It hit him in his shoulder joint, the bullet was going over 3000fps when it hit, it blew peices of shoulder bone out his chest on the opposite side! He was instantly killed, and the damage was the most extensive I've ever seen. | |||
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| <awknod> |
HI, I'm a new guy. you guys are funny. the.308win. is a great round from a m-60 machine gun but as a big game round it lacks alot. great girls gun.no power,that why the cops use em as sniper rifles,lack of penetration. like I said it is a fair anti personell round. ask col.cooper if you can find the alzhiemers facility they've placed the the arrogant old fart in. they are using "real" guns for snipers in the middle east. these days .300 rum,.338 lapua,.300 weatherby. as a big game round the .308 win. SUCKS as a rabbit gun its too loud. | ||
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| one of us |
Holy Crap I can't believe that anyone would think the 308 isn't a great cottontail rifle let alone a time tested vetran of the deer woods from Main to Alaska. My favorite 308 is a pre 64 M70FWT. With 150gr Ballistic Tips it's awesome on deer both whitetail and Muleys. Works great on Pronghorns as well. When I wanted a gun that if it got lost or stolen to travel with it was another 308 in a Ruger stainless. If you can't quickly kill a deer with a 308 than maybe you should take up golf. | |||
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| one of us |
The .308 Win has got to be one of my least favorite calibers but it isn't that bad either. Go back to what you shoot well and have confidence in. | |||
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| <X-Ring> |
Lack of penitration? Are you for real? or just trolling for a cyber fight? I have shot countless dear whites & muleys, and also several elk. Penitration has NEVER been a problem for me. Huge whitetail buck. The only shot I had as he ran away was through the ham to get to the vital. That bullet went throught the ham, and all the vitals and exited out the off side front shoulder breaking the shoulder. Barnes X 165bt. 75yds Complete penitration of an elk at 150 yds breaking one shoulder on the off side. 180gr corelock Those are but a few of the game animals I have taken with the sucky 308win round. I guess what I'm thinking here is. If you think the 308 sucks and you can't kill deer and rabbits with it. You need to get off your butt shut the computer off and get to the range. With some pratice you will start hitting the animals where you intend to. Thus you will kill them, and not wast time blaming a great time proven round for your miss placed shots. ------------------ | ||
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| <BigBob> |
GSF, Usually speaking, when a wounded animal runs off, and doesn't drop in fifty yards or less, the cause is one of two things. 1) Poor bullet functioning. The bullet failed to expand or "mushroom", wrong bullet type was used or the bullet was not intended for the way it was used. 2) Poor bullet placement. If the proper type bullet from a .338 WM hits a deer in the leg, gut or ear you're going to get the same results, a lost, wounded animal. A bullet from a .22 Long rifle, properly place, will take any animal in North America, except for the big bears. There may be additional causes for your difficulty, but not as important or common as these two. If it is the bullet, ask for suggestions on this site. The people here are a good bunch and will help as much as possible. If it's poor placement, again ask questions or get a good book on the anatomy of game animals. I hope that this is of some help. Good luck. ------------------ | ||
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| <Mike Dettorre> |
I am so confused...my manuals show max muzzle velocity for both 270 and the 7mag right at about 3000 (actuals are 2950-3050 depending on powder) fps for 150 grn bullets out of a 24" bbl. Most bullets with a BC of .45 or so lose 2 fps per 1 yd of travel. Maybe the deer was behind you or were you shooting downhill? ------------------ The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner | ||
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| one of us |
methinks we have a troll........ | |||
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| one of us |
As a retired cop, I can tell you that SWAT used the 308 becasue it is one of the most accurate rounds to be had. As for the lack of penetration mentioned above, bunk! The 308 will go deep and go hard right along with the best of them. I had a lot of experience with the 303, AKA 7.62 MM when I was employed as a professional shooter by Uncle Sam. It's not just a good round, it's a damned good round. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: You need a new manual! The 7mm mag can propel 140's to 3400fps, 160's to 3200fps, and the 175 to 3000fps. My .270win does 3100fps with a 150gr! | |||
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| <Mike Dettorre> |
GSF, Could you please tell me the Manual Name, Version and Page, that shows a 7mm rem mag with an MV of 140's at 3400fps I assume your 270 is a handload. I would be interested in bbl length and powder used and approximate load. Don't want you to have any liability. Really looking forward to the data. ------------------ The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner [This message has been edited by Mike Dettorre (edited 04-21-2002).] [This message has been edited by Mike Dettorre (edited 04-23-2002).] | ||
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