The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Does the .308 Win suck or What?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Does the .308 Win suck or What? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
The .308 has been a complete disaster for me, never has it dropped anything in it's tracks, and that includes cottontails!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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| <leo> |
GSF, as long as they don't travel very far, that's what counts. What ammo do you use, what animals have you shot and where were they hit? | ||
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| <JHook> |
Better move up to a 7mm-mag and matchkings..............J | ||
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| <Howitzer> |
"Does the 308Win Suck or what?" WHAT. | ||
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| <Big Stick> |
GSF, Are you bitchin' or braggin'?.............. | ||
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| one of us |
I have an uncle that shot nothing but, his first 308 was from Monkey Ward, It happen to be a Sako of all things. That was way back in 1959. That rife end up with legs in the 1970's and he got a Mauser one of the New ones, that was a Heym with the Mauser Name on it got it in 1972 as replacement for the Ward gun. Over the years I watch my Uncle shoot a huge amount of Deer and 8 moose all with just one shot. Uncle knew How to shoot. He learned in the Marines and in the Pacific in World War Two. I think is either a shooter problem, or its a bullet choice, for the game you are hunting. The 308 is a pretty good cartridge, I rather have an 06 but some really neet guns come chambered in 308. | |||
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| <Super 88> |
My first shot at a big game animal was with my son's Model 7 308. One shot at an elk at 260 yards, one dead elk. That rifle will put 3 shots into less than 3/4 of an inch at 100 yards. I've actually shot it more than my son. Lots of practice,know where it shoots, and squeeeeze the trigger. It's not the cartridge my friend, it's you. | ||
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| <allen day> |
Maybe you've been unlucky. I've seen a slew of Texas whitetails go down as if lightening-struck from .308's, mostly with regular non-premium 150 gr. bullets. At least for THAT job, the .308 has show me it works as well as anything else, including my favorite .270... AD | ||
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| one of us |
Operator error! | |||
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| one of us |
quote: Every shot was absolute perfection! I have recovered all game shot with my .308, but I don't consider a whitetail that runs 200 yds with a lung shot, adequate performance. No other caliber has performed so poorly for me. I've shot whitetails, hogs, and rabbits, with the .308, using Win 150gr Silvertips, or a handload with a 150gr Nosler solidbase, and 45gr's N202, chronos at 2800fps from my 22" barrel. The same type of game, and shot placement with my .270 130gr, 7mm Rem Mag 139gr, or my 8x57 170gr, has been spectacular one shot kills, with the animals being slammed to the ground so hard, they created a dust cloud! | |||
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| <sure-shot> |
GSF, Its a properly placed bullet that does the killing. The cartridge only serves as the launching apparatus. May I suggest you try the 150-165gr Nosler Part, Speer Grand Slams, Hornady Interlocks in your 308win and get back to us. Lung shots don't always drop critters fast, I like the high shoulder shot if I can place it, this drops 'em fast. sure-shot | ||
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| one of us |
Rabbits in Louisiana must be pretty tough. If I ever hunt them I'll take a .375 H&H handloaded with premium bullets. | |||
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one of us |
Go back to what works for you!!! I am amazed you are getting the one shot, slam to the ground type of kills with other rifles but find the .308 inadequite. I think possibly you should go back to a favorite rifle and only use that one gun. It may result in more dust clouds. It's a matter of choice and everyones' but yours don't matter. I've got to say I've had some very good results with a .257 Roberts. Maybe you need a smaller gun! | |||
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| <Elliot Viker> |
GSF, What type of gun are you shooting? If you don't want the piece of crap, I will purchase it from you at a steep discount. My kids can always use a cheap gun. I have always had good luck with my 308's, and will likely in the future. | ||
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| one of us |
Check the nut behind the butt plate....could be too loose or too tight! | |||
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One of Us |
I've never understood this "drop-em-in-their-tracks" mentality that only Americans seem to hold. Perhaps it's because the majority of hunters after "big game" in the U.S. are seeking whitetails. They're not particularly hard to kill, and light, frangible, high-velocity stuff (like the 270/130 gr load) does indeed tend to drop them in their tracks faster than those shot with the 308... 257 Roberts included. Bigger, "big game" (like elk) usually don't go down in their tracks no matter what they're hit with. Big deal. I've shot a number of deer-sized critters with the 308 and 270 Win. In the 308 I generally shoot 165's. I've never had a deer go down in its tracks with the 308... they generally run anywhere from 20 to 150 yards... even when lung-punched. On the other hand, the 270 often dumps them on the spot... there is something to be said for velocity and light, frangible bullets... I think Jack O had a little bit to say about it a couple of years ago... like 50! Still, if you're a hunter, I don't see why having to track a little bit is any hardship, and I'd rather have a 308 carbine loaded with slow-opening premium 165's to use on elk than a 270 loaded with frangible 130's. Pretty silly way to title a thread... BA | |||
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one of us |
Try the HPBT's from Sierra. | |||
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| <sure-shot> |
quote: Brad, P.S. My friend shoots a 338winnie [This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 04-07-2002).] | ||
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| one of us |
If it is necessary to drop them in their traks, theirs a lot of bowhunters that need BIGGER bows. Even a 50 cal muzzle loader shot through the lungs of a deer at close range can still run, not verry far but thay still run. | |||
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| one of us |
Many reasons to want to drop them in their tracks, one of which is I feel it is unethical if you can't kill them instantly. That's why I don't bow hunt, if an animal suffers for more than milliseconds, I feel badly. | |||
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| one of us |
1200, Boy, are you in for an eye openner..Nothing slams them down all the time, nothing least that is the only caliber any of us would use..When you find a rifle that will do that please let the rest of us know.. I've instantly killed rabbits many times with a 308 and have yet to wound one, also Cape Buffalo, Eland and one Moose. The 308 is as good as the 06, 270, 280, 7 mag, 7x57, 7-08, 8x57, and a host of others, they are all equal for all practical purposes as far as killing power goes... ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
SureShot... you just MADE MY POINT. You say your friend used a 338 Win Mag... that's what I generally use elk hunting. I've had it drop elk in their tracks, and I've also had them walk away. A lot of guys consider the 338 Win Mag a really big gun and the last-word in elk rifles. Really, it isn't... the 338, in my small experience, acts on elk like the 270 does on smaller game. Still, stuff can walk away at a perfectly placed shot for no apparent reason. Ray is right... NO cartridge, with "X" amount of bullet diameter, energy, etc., will always perform the same way all the time with different animals of the same species... at least not anything that a human being could carry and fire from the shoulder. I stick to my original point... the "drop-em-in-their-tracks mentatlity is a Disney-esque fantasy... it can't ALWAYS be counted on with any cartridge. Brad | |||
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| <X-Ring> |
I don't like aking "high risk" shots as they can yeild wounded game in to many situations. There for I always take as big a vital area as I can. On elk this means when I can I will take a heart/lung shot over a head shot. Two years ago I hit my bullelk in the ribs twice from 150yds, and he still kept running. As I thought he would make the top of the hill and I would loose him to another hunter I took a shot at his neck and he dropped in his tracks. My piont is this. Like Brad I use a 338win for elk, and the first two shots where both with in four inchs from each other about five inches above the heart. These where good shots from a 338 with 220gr X's. Drop em in there tracks doesn't always happen. There are alot of factors in the hunting feild. I personaly think it wouldn't be any fun at all to know every time you pull the trigger you will never miss, or have to track an animal. It's all part of the hunt for me. No I don't want to see anything suffer undue pain either so don't read that in to this post it's not there! X-Ring ------------------ | ||
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| <sure-shot> |
Brad, Hope you did not take my post personal, just trying to point out that there are some situations in which you do not want to wind up tracking animals, one should strive for quick clean kills. I'm sure you understand. Come hunt big black bars with me sometime, I hunt next to a Nat'l park and some very deep, rocky canyons.Lots of brush too. The bars are conditioned to nature hikers who are in sync with "nature". You will surely want to have a "drop 'em in their tracks attitude" on this hunt, believe me! [This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 04-07-2002).] | ||
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| One of Us |
X-ring... your example of those hits on that elk from the 338 is a perfect (and I DO mean PERFECT) example of what I was talking about. I really love the 338 Win Mag, but am also really uncertain that it is any better than a lot of other cartridges... I've become a bit skeptical, yet I don't have enough experience with other cartridges to truly know. I just got a 300 WSM this past fall, and (if I can iron-out a feeding problem) will try it on elk this fall. I've heard of "drop in their tracks" lung-shots on elk from 308 Win's and "merry-chases" from identical hits with 375 H&H's. No one would deny the 375 is about "tops" as an elk round! Bob338 (from AA) loves the 338's on elk too... he had a twelve (yes, 12!) shot-kill on a big bull this past year in Wyoming with his 338 WSM... I can't remember the exact details, but the range was over 300 yards, and the bulk of the shots were all in the hear-lung area. Bob has taken some truly awesome bulls, but even he was surprised by that one... he recounted a similar incident with a 338 Win Mag on the same trip. Go figure! Like you said, that's hunting! Sure shot. Really, no offense taken. Of course, we'd all like em' to "drop to the shot", but that's just not a reality. I do understand the NP thing... Yellowstone is just "down the street" and I've got a hankering to hunt its fringes this fall! Best Regards, Brad | |||
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| one of us |
Gentlemen, I like the .308, I think it's a great round. Of course I like the .303 British even better, which is usually about 100 fps SLOWER than the .308, so I guess it is even more useless. It's just weird how useless rounds like these seem to kill so much game, including moose, eland, elk, and the like. Just an observation.... Joel Slate 7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm | |||
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| <pakrattusnongratus> |
Get close then sneak up on 'em some more. Use a .458 Winnie. What's wrong with this post? A minute of deer M600 Remington in .308 has NEVER failed to drop a deer. Might run a short distance. They don't always get the message instantly. That 150 gr Barnes X bullet has always given total penetration. Never recovered one. The Nosler 150 gr partitions were the same way before that. Guess I agree. You need the 7Mag with Sierra Matchkings. ------------------ | ||
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| <dr280> |
Brad, Just a thought about Bob's 12 shot kill- (not trying to be an ass-) why in the world would he shoot more than 3 times if all were "in the heart/lungs" area? Granted- I have yet to hunt elk- but I have personally only shot 1 whitetail more than once- and it was with a 20 gauge slug gun at 25 yards on the run- all three could be covered with a softball. I am in the shoot em once where it counts- and then take your time traking- they'll be there at the end of the blood. I have taken about 75 whitetails- the majority with a bow- and enjoy traking them just as much as seeing them flatten the ground. I do see the advantage of dropping them- but if that is the situation- then make your first one count- high in the shoulders- and be done with it. Like Ray said- any of the most popular calibers will work fine- as long as the shot counts! I make mine count with a Ruger #1 in .280. ONE SHOT=ONE KILL. | ||
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| One of Us |
280, I don't think you're being a smart-ass! That's a good question. I've shot a LOT of whitetail deer... they generally go down in short order with even a poorly-placed lung shot... the farthest I've ever had to track a deer was 150- 200 yards or-so. That was a Muley buck I hit a little too-far back in the lungs with a 308 Win and 165 gr. Barnes X... I only took out the rear-lobes and soon found him. No big deal, even though it was in thick timber. Elk are entirely different... you can lose those buggers with even well-placed shots... I can't speak EXACTLY as to the circumstances of those hits... I don't believe all twelve were "perfect" hits, though the first was a lung hit as were the majority of the rest. Most dead-serious big game hunters shoot til' they drop if at all possible. That's what I do, and after reading a bit on the African forum for a couple of years, that's what the African's do to... I think it makes good sense, especially when it comes to elk. Bob is a very experienced elk hunter, excellent field shot, knowledgable handloader and rifleman whom I have absolute confidence in... if he says it happend, it happened, and I, for one, understand pouring in more lead... when you've dealt with elk a bit (I hope you do) you'll realize they're more than a "big deer." Iron-plated no, tenacious, yes! Bob's bull was, as I recall, in the 360 B&C class... you don't let a once-in-a-lifetime bull like that keep standing if possible. Brad [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 04-07-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
quote: I gained my experience in terminal bullet performance over 16 years standing next to an autopsy table watching and listening while a forensic pathologist explained the mechanics of a particular death. I did it hundreds of time. I also investigated how that wounding came to be. Some rules in bullet performance are not up for debate or opinion. #1: Death from a lung shot results from cutting off the flow of blood to the brain. You can live for a long time with a large loss of blood, but not for long if blood does not get to the brain. #2: After the flow of blood to the brain is cut off, the brain will function from 4 to 8 seconds before collapse occurs. #3: A suspect can empty a Browning High Power in less then 4 seconds, even though he has a chest wounds that are a 100% fatal, even with immediate medical attention. (Happened to an FBI agent after the agent delivered five fatal wound to a suspect's chest. The Suspect was armed with a Browning and got off every round. Lucky they all missed.) #4: How far can a dead deer run flat out in 4 seconds? In 8 seconds. 200 yards isn't far at all. Long before I did my 16 year stint in reality, I was convinced there existed a weapon that would magically knock every living target I shot at off its feet. I leaned that is a fantasy. You deliver a fatal wound to game, and that game has anywhere from 4 to 8 seconds to put on the speed. Woodsmanship come into play. Being able to track. A bigger, faster, better rifle is the answer. [This message has been edited by RogerK (edited 04-07-2002).] [This message has been edited by RogerK (edited 04-07-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
RogerK, you need to learn more about what actually happens in the field. I've shot running deer in the lungs with a .270, and they were instantly killed, so violently were they killed that they broke a leg in the fall. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: This coming hunting season will be #40. I've killed deer and seen deer killed, killed elk and seen elk killed, some like lightening, some that put on a sprint and had to be tracked. Until I actually got a job where I had to learn from pathologists what happened after a fatal would is delivered, I had the same opinion of killing power. Give me a big gun, a fast bullet and knockdown power. But then I learned about the 8 seconds in hell, cops facing a "dead" suspect that has 8 seconds to do harm even though he has a fatal wound. It made me stop and think. Remember, I had to go to court and testify on this stuff. I'm not disagreeing with you. I can tell you about the doe I shot that dropped like a sack of rocks. 30 06. I can tell you about my nephew taking the heart completely out of a doe with his 7MM Rem Mag. She ran over 200 yards. Some drop like lightening, some don't. The explaination is that 8 seconds. I different weapon isn't a magic answer. PS: I use a 270 and 300 Win Mag, Barnes X bullets. I have been loading my own for 30 of those 40 years. I won't keep a rifle that shoots over a MOA. | |||
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| <Big Stick> |
Largely why I am a proponent of breaking bone. I am a shoulder breaker,of the highest order. If you anchor them,they simply can't travel. The only time I deviate,is in a controlled environment and a CNS strike is "doable". Give me good bullets and both shoulders lined up and I'll thank you kindly............ | ||
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| One of Us |
Roger K... those are good posts. You've SAID what I've been TRYING to say... within reason, caliber, etc., really isn't that important. I've begun to doubt that the 338 Win Mag and its ilk are the "final-word" in elk rifles. I DO believe, based on field observation, that the shock of a high-stepping, frangible bullet will produce more quick drops on smaller, deer-sized stuff. All bets seem to be off, however, when the game gets bigger. Animals are all different, small ones may be hyper-adrenalized and run off (as you've noted) with shredded lungs. A larger, unadrenalized, game animal may drop-to-the-shot with the identical hit from the identical waepon. There are WAY too many variables to come up with any final word on the subject, other than, "use a reliable rifle you can shoot well, chambered in a cartridge of proven field-performance, loaded with a bullet appropriate to the game... because s##t happens!" Like one guy asked, "what's the best elk RIFLE?" The other guy answered, "whatever the best ELK HUNTER has in his hands!" Brad PS, the 308 STILL does not "suck." | |||
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| one of us |
RogerK, you are talking apples and oranges. Shooting a suspect with a 9mm or a 40cal pistol, isn't the same as using a rifle that has a impact velocity on target of over 3000fps. | |||
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one of us |
The only thing that I know of that throws an animal to the ground in an explsion of dust is gravity. All you have to do is incapacitate the antigravity center of the animal (read brain, spine) and instant dust cloud!! 308 is perfectly capable of that job, in the right hands. Of course, there is always Murphy. ------------------ | |||
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| <Gary Rihn> |
The last two deer that I've killed have been heart shot with a 12 ga slug, one at 40 yards, one at 60 yards. One was literally a center-punch heart shot. The other separated all the vessels from the top of the heart, and took some heart along for good measure. A 12 ga slug delivers some energy-on-target. A heart shot is as humane as I can make it. Now, the catch... neither buck fell at the shot. They both made a mad dash, the farthest one covered 60 yards. It was over in seconds. Their brains were without oxygenated blood at the shot. How could I be more humane? A drop-at-the-shot type hit isn't necessarily better. A spine shot will drop them in their tracks, but depending on where in the spine the hit is, it may not be fatal. Is that more humane than what I did? A double shoulder shot will drop them, but they may need a little time to die. Is that better? I've had deer go down on the spot that required follow-up shots. Some of my best shots have involved tracking jobs. With a good hit, it is a short easy job. The pole-ax effect means nothing to me. | ||
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one of us |
IMHO the .308 is the best round I ever used. With a Steyr SSG 69 (I know, it�s a sniper rifle, but I use it for hunting) and 180 gr Nosler Partition, 45,5gr N 150 powder I�m really very well armed. This combination is a lot more accurate than my 30-06 or .270 Win. | |||
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| <rplocat> |
your not going to put them down in there tracks all the time,with any gun.like was posted before the adrelin factor plays a big part of what the animal is going to do.i've dropped them or had them run 1 or 200yrds with smaller and larger calibers.hit a 110lb deer with a 150 gr serria spitzer out of 8mm mag,standing broadside at 100yds put a hole going in and comming out the size of a baseball. it ran 100 yrds couln't believe it thought i missed somehow,was ready to put another one in it and saw i had hit it behind the shoulders in the lungs.so no need to squeeze off again. try some 150 gr balistic tips i've had real good luck with them in my 308. | ||
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sure-shot