Mike, I "hear" what you're saying and agree all "experience" is not created equal. Shooting 100 varied animals weighing from 30 to 2,500 lbs will show one thing whilst shooting 500 of one or two species will reveal something else. However, here in MT I hunt with my rifles (M70s all) year-round in temperatures that range from an arid (100 F) to wet/cold (-20 F)... that will give a guy some idea about rifle reliability as well!

Savage99, the main problem with the WSM's (IMO) is the feeding issue. They're clunky, short, sharp-shouldered cartridges, not the long, slender, slope-shouldered cartridges that make for easy feeding. Obviously proper feeding is critical to a proper hunting rifle (as opposed to a benchrest/varmint gun). They certainly can be made to feed well, but if I were picking a rifle for battle-field conditions it wouldn't be a WSM... it'd be something more akin to the 30-06.

My own M70 needed tension removed from the follower spring in order to stop a very frustrating condition where the top round (#1 round of a full, 3-round magazine) would "hang-up" under the feed rails about 1 in 20 times when it was fed. How I "cured" this was by keeping the magazine stoked for the entire MT big game season, thereby relieving a little of the follower spring tension and completely eliminating this obnoxious occurance. There is, however, a fine balancing act playing out here as the follower spring must still retain enough tension so that the final (#3) round has enough tension beneath it to snap it up and under the extractor in order for it to get a straight run into the chamber so that its fat body doesn't "hang up" on the chamber entrance... the WSM's MUST get a "straight run" into the chamber because of their geometry. This sort of "balancing act" is certainly present with cartridges like the 30-06 and 300 WM but is much less critical because of their slender, long profile.

I'm quite pessimistic about the WSSM's feeding reliability because they are still shorter than the WSM whilst being equally fat and sharp-shouldered. The sharp angle at which the WSSM's come out of the follower will likely make everything even more critical.

Brad

[ 12-30-2002, 07:28: Message edited by: Brad ]

According to John Lazzeroni he did not use another cartridge as a model when designing his original line of cartridges which were all of the long, super magnum-type....case head at 0.578" which means you use a 416 Rigby shell-holder when you reload. The Patriot is the longer .30 WarBird with the case shortened to 2.01".

John's factory ammo is expensive but then so is Dakota's and any other proprietary round. Brass, at $2 each, lasts a long time if you don't stress it and anneal it periodically. It is also probably the heaviest brass you will run across. Price of factory ammo, which does 3100 fps with a 180gr Nosler in my rifle, isn't a factor as I load all my own ammo...did test one box of factory ammo.

The Patriot case is wider than the WSM but it is also a bit shorter and as the brass is quite a bit thicker I suspect the internal capacity is close with a slight edge to the Patriot.

And for those that say "so what" if the WSM or whatever matches the 300 WinMag what else does it have going for it PLUS always the comments about the benefits of the short-action. Let me list them again.....(1) if you're 6' tall and wear a shirt with 35" sleeves the answer is not a damn one that makes any difference BUT if you're 5'8" tall and wear a 31" or 32" sleeve etc the difference is very real.....I really don't understand the resistance to this...think about it guys, does a fellow 6' plus use the same size golf clubs as someone who is 4" or more shorter?
(2) the actions should be a little stiffer but as Russell would say "Big Fuckin' Deal" and (3) again many still don't understand (or care to) what happens inside the case when the primer goes off...the answer is the short-fat cases don't waste powder that doesn't burn as the longer cases do. This is the basic reason short magnums can duplicate (or almost duplicate) the velocity of it's longer cousins.

You may not like it, you may not believe it but all the whining in the world won't change these facts.

DB Bill,

From your posting:

The Patriot case is wider than the WSM but it is also a bit shorter and as the brass is quite a bit thicker I suspect the internal capacity is close with a slight edge to the Patriot.

Probably puts it at 300 Winchester capacity.

In 26 inch barrel and with single base powders the 300 Winchester will go about 3130 to 3150 with 180s before accuracy falls off. That is based on bench guns I have owned in 300 Winchester.

I believe the reason Lazzeroni uses a slightly smaller case head than the 416 Rigby is to force you to buy his brass.

Based on my experience with 6mm/284 and 6mm/06....one 6mm/284 HV barrel and one 6mm/06 HV barrel rechambered to 6mm/284 after about 100 shots from 6mm/06....and several barrels in 6mm/06...I think short and fact generally uses a slower powder. I think velocity differences are really down to available powders. For 6mm/06 was a bit faster than 6mm/284. The 6mm/284 definitely showed a different powder requirement and I think that is what the 6mm/06s were a bit faster...powder was more spot on.

My 6mm/06s were a bit more accurate than the 6mm/284s. By the all my shooting was with 1 in 12 barrels and lighter bullets. I put the bit better accuracy of the 6mm/06 down to possible a couple of things.

1) The 6mm/06s were made from new 25/06 brass so much less necking down.

2) The reamer for the 6mm/06 may have been better...both JGS but who knows.

The bottom line being that apart from short and fat allowing more velocity from a short action, the rest is very open to discussion...in other words the differences are needles in a haystack.

Mike

Brad.....please re-read my last sentence! And. let me repeat something else that is true.

"It isn't what you don't know that will cause you problems, it's what you think you know...and don't"

Your statement about powder and how it burns is what I would call a "half-truth" as the correct statement is....all the powder that is going to burn will burn (and contribute to pressure) before the bullet has moved more than a few inches down the bore....but and this is a big but, there is always some powder that is only partially burned and some that doesn't burn at all. It doesn't all "blow out the barrel" as much of it simply remains in the barrel as fouling or didn't you have any idea what fouling was? Some does actually go out the end of the barrel and fall to the ground but it isn't much.

One more "lesson" before I go to bed...it isn't this unburned or partially burned powder that causes muzzle-flash as it exits the barrel...can you guess what it is?

DB Bill,

From your post:

One more "lesson" before I go to bed...it isn't this unburned or partially burned powder

Not true.

More to do with how combustion occurred and hydrogen being released that ignites with contact of oxygen (outside the barrel)

Both yourself and Allen Day have expensive rifles and are arguing from the platform of the party.

One is a Democrat and the other is a Republican.

I am Anarchist with both politics and guns and I suspect that Brad is also Anarchist with guns. Don't know about his politics

Mike

Savage99, the hunting field is the ultimate rifle and cartridge testing laboratory - make no mistake about it and don't lie to yourself about or try and bamboozle everyone else - plus that brand of experience comes at the highest price if you're talking about HUNTING rifles chambered for HUNTING cartridges. It'll teach you things that a lifetime of paper-punching and down-home experimentation will never, ever reveal. One other thing: In twenty-five years of reloading belted magnum cartridges, I have NEVER blown the head off of a case or suffered a cracked case. I did have ONE leaky primer in some 20,000 rounds. But then maybe I'm doing something wrong.......

I think Lazzeroni's 7.82 Patriot is a very good round from what I can gather from those have really used it. Like Weatherby, Lazzeroni loads this ammo to advertised velocities and very precisely as well. Their short action rifle chambered for their short cartridges is an extremely well-made and appealing rifle with an excellent action, stock, and everything else. If I wanted a special rifle for a short, fat magnum cartridge, I'd likely go with this Lazzeroni package, because everything's made right from the get-go.

Bill, I thought that length-of-pull issues were pretty well taken care of by adjusting the distance between the buttpad and the trigger.

AD

These guns are made in CT and it's river valley where guns were made to feed for hundreds of years. My dad made a number of machines to feed automotive and aircraft parts for assembly. Some were nuts that had an aspect ratio of 1/1.

We can feed anything here from soup to nuts.

There are many automation shops that do this every day.

Now I might be wrong and the WSSM's may not feed well. Time will tell but my 7MM WSM feeds as well as anything. And I have two pre 64 70's in .300 & .375 H&H.

Guys,

Old John Olin would be pleased that his folks had stirred up such a ruckus with the development of the WSM and WSSM cartridges. If you guys don't mind another dog jumping into this fight, I'll add my comments.

First of all and most important to the manufacturers, guns rarely wear out. They are passed down from generation to generation. Therefore, to stay in business and continue to sell product, some motivation must be provided to convince the shooting public that they need new rifles. One way of doing that is "new" caliber introductions. Just the discussions in this thread shows how successful the manufacturers have been with the SM and SSM introductions.

From my point of view, the short magnum family of cartridges, present and future, have one and only one "advantage." That is, they can be chambered in a rifle with a somewhat shorter action. Period. That might provide a slight edge to some people. There is a cost associated with that "advantage" though. That is, the factory loaded ammo is loaded to 65,000 pressure, which, to me at least, is more than I want that close to my nose.

Some guys have talked about chambering the short magnum rounds in a .30-06 length action so that the bullets can be loaded further out. Now that makes about as much sense to me as peeing into a 50 knot wind. Seems to this country boy that it would be smarter to go with the longer cartridge to start with.

Anyway, if a guy wants one of the new short magnums, then for cripes sake, buy it. The fact that you want it is justification enough. If you don't want one, don't like it, then don't buy one. No other reason is necessary.

Tom

Bill, what the devil does the length of the action have to do with the stature of the man pulling the trigger?

chuck

Chuk, that extra 5/8" of action length is a REAL burden for us guys that are under 6 ft

The only problem with your 6' or less and the 5/8" is that the 5/8" is ahead (forward) of the trigger anyway. The trigger of the WSM rifles is in exactly the same spot in referrence to where the tang begins for the WSM and WM cartridges. I just measured. Length of pull has to do with the stock. The trigger is in the same spot, at least on the Winchester Model 70, and any additional length is in the front of the action.
Try again.

BTW, I think the WSMs are more for choice for those who don't have a gun chambered for either today. They were not meant to replace anything we have today, simply to add to. It is about marketing to those people who will be looking for something they don't already have, not just another iteration of what they do have.

My, oh, my. This is what happens when you heap assumptions upon preconceived notions upon pet peeves.

Action length doesn't matter? Really! Standard length bolts hit my glasses when shooting from prone. Short action bolts don't. Don't tell me bolt length doesn't matter!

Rifle length doesn't matter? Try peeling one of those 26" barreled, magnum length rifles from a scabbard. Or try to have a person under 5'6" shoot it from field positions. Length doesn't matter; what utter rubbish.

Short stubby don't feed? Put it in a rotary magazine, or a stack magazine, problem solved. To keep harping on the feeding problem is like saying a diesel truck is a bad vehicle because it doesn't burn gasoline..... The right tool for the job.

Accuracy doesn't matter? We handloaders spend untold fortunes shaving that next .1" at one hundred. You don't need to go through 10 barrels to see what the difference is between a 35 whelen and a 6ppc. Just set the target up at 300 yards, and let the velocity spread show itself........ No, accuracy is NOT the same for all cartridges. Try to make a 243 shoot with a 6PPC, once, if you have any doubt. JMO, Dutch.

Allen et al ....it isn't the overall length of the rifle that I'm talking about, it is the distance between your hands when you handle, mount and shoot the rifle. Try this little test.

Pick up a broom and do a little sweeping with it....now move your bottom hand an inch further down the handle...is your control of the broom just as good?.....does it feel just as comfortable?...move it a little further as see the effect.

For that matter, just pick up your favorite rifle and mount it as you normally would.....note where your leading hand is. Lower the rifle and move your hand forward an inch and remount the rifle. Notice any difference? Did it mount as easily? Can you swing it as accurately?

If you are taller (longer arms mostly) you can always move your leading hand forward but if your arms are shorter (like mine) you can't really bring the leading hand backward.

One size doesn't fit all

PS.....PLEASE DO TRY THIS TEST & REPORT BACK YOUR RESULTS...DON'T BE SHY!

[ 12-31-2002, 03:33: Message edited by: DB Bill ]

In fact, the 338 WSM has been developed. Winchester put it on the shelf for this year.
Probably for marketing reasons and due to the
WSSMs.
Though I shoot a 264 and 338 win mags. I also own
a 300 WSM and find it a great design for function
in everything I need.
You can count me in the Short Mag camp.
I'm amuzed by those who lambast new cartridges,
I'm sure the 30-40 krag guys poo-pood the same thing about the 30-ought six...a century ago. Old
fogey's never change, they just go away.
Thank goodness the manufactures don't listen to
those guys. I like progress and a manufacture that will take a chance and put it on the line.
Capitalism! That's for me.

Brad, according to Lawdog and others, all you have to do with a belted mag is adjust your dies so it headspaces on the shoulder also. This also works your brass less I am told, and allows for more loads/brass. I am still wanting to actually see the accuracy of these rifles.

DB Bill, great info on the Lazarinni's. I may pick one of these short mags for my youngest son. My gunsmith tried to talk me out of a 26 inch barrel on the 240 wby I am having built, but I wanted to achieve all the velocity the round could deliver, otherwise, as far as I was concerned, I might as well have bought a 6mm Rem (which is a honey of a round anyway). Reason I am posting this is I am kind of laughing as I am 6 ft tall, and have very long arms.... My gunsmith is about 5'8', so I guess that may explan his postion. I'm still thinking a 25 caliber in the short mag would be real interesting, something between a 25-06 and a 257 wby.

Brad, me either, I must be spacing out. Sorry, read that from someone else, and now I cant find it....LOL.

No worries... thought I'd missed something... that wouldn't be a first!

BA

I personally like the shortmag concept and agree the only real advantage is that you can have a magnum performance round in a ligher, shorter rifle(not a new concept). Unfortunately, not many manufacturers take advantage of this. Browning looks to be the only one, weighing in at 6lbs 11oz, where Winchester's/Rem's all over 7 lbs. Not a big savings, but less than standard cartridges of the same caliber. I heard the Kimber 84m will be available in the shortmags shortly, so maybe this will be a light weight as well.

On another note, I'm a big .270 fan and the popularity of the .270 WSM seems to have sparked the bullet manufactures to add some more weights (at least Nosler added a 140 Partition and a 150 Ballistic Silver Tip).

-Lou

This may justify a new topic, but someone mentioned that maybe Winchester missed out by not making the short mag in a more 30-06 length caliber. I'm sitting here thinking about all of the great "Ackley improved" cartidges, etc, and why havent they been commericalized. For example, I am building a 240 wby mag, and I want it, but really, why hasnt someone commercialized the 6mm-06? And really, weatherby cartidges do crank it up a notch, why not introduce cartidges that exeed, or at least match them? The puzzling thing I see is the short mags all seem to "almost" get there, to where current cartridges "already are". I am not an expert like many of you, what am I missing?

faulgur,

Perhaps the most important feature of a "performance" cartridge, if you don't mind me taking a term from another pastime, is recoil.

Recoil is the great demominator. Few can really measure the effect of a bullet on game in a lifetime so it's perception that counts.

Most hunters give the nod to the 30/06 when they say they use one and they look up at the faces they are talking to for afformation and everybody agrees.

Perception is the key here. Winchester claims that the 300 WSM is a little better than the 300 Win Mag. That's all they need to hear as they remember the claim of less recoil too.

hey you guys got a great idea!
if the 404 jeffrey case was cut to 2.6" with a short neck and a nice shoulder taper you would have a real "short mag"! you could rechamber any standard caliber in the 06' line-up so you wouldn't have to buy a new gun or action.
it would exceed the standard mags performance as a new mag case should and fit in about a zillion rifles floating around out there. not good for manufacturers but great for the wallet.
i just got out howell's custom cartridges. seems it has been done many times over. howell cut his to 2.5 with 404 body taper for 123 grains water capacity.
jensen took it a step further.
his to 2.6 with blown out case to max cap of 139 grains water.
in perspective, the 426 rem mag lists at 142 grains water.
sounds like alot of fun. now i wont be able to go to sleep!
thanks a bunch
woofer

From John Haviland's article in Rifle #205 (Jan-Feb 2003) Introducing a New Cartridge:

p.51 [Quote] Many people, including some in the shooting industry, question whether any new rifle cartridges are needed. A lineup of all the current centerfire rfile cartridges would make a long picket fence. Kevin Howard, of Winchester Ammunition disagrees. "There's always room for a new cartridge", he said. "The shooting industry thrives on new products. We have to because the shooting market is not a growing market. In a mature market like this, you have to introduce innovative products that create new demand." [Unquote]

So there you have it -- it is all about marketing.

jim dodd

Yep, you're right about that! The rest of you who like the "tried & true" should get down on your knees and thank us idiots who go out and buy new sporting equipment we don't need.

A prime example of this might be the 376 Steyr which is a nice middlin' round that could be described as a "niche" cartridge.....not quite as long as a regular magnum and not quite as short as a real short magnum and not quite as powerful as either a 375 H&H or my 9.53 Lazzeroni Hellcat.

I seem to recall a statement by Chairman Cooper, and this isn't a quote but I think it's close, where he said he didn't really see a need for the 376 Steyr in a Scout Rifle but if someone thought he needed the extra horespower than more power to him. As usual, I agree with him.

My Model 70 300 WSM is alot more accurate than my friend's Model 70 300 Win. Mag., and I was using factory 180 failsafes. As always, I got the last laugh. He laughed first at the small case and bullet, but I laughed when it was time to take the target paper down!

Well then, that settles it! The WSM's are the best/worst idea of the year/decade/century and should have been based on a longer/shorter, fatter/skinnier case with a rebated/standard rim with/without a belt and will spell success/disaster for Winchester Olin and Winchester firearms. God must love America where we have so many wonderful choices. The hot stove league is still in business.

I just really wish Winchester would come out with a .338 WSM. Can you imagine the sells? Well, my fingers are still crossed.

how bout a 6.5 WSM wouldnt that just be a sweet sheep rifle?

The way I look at all this is that the WSM's give us, the shooters/hunters more options. Personally, I like options. However, I am a traditionalist, in all ways the word was meant to describe. I shoot more "old" cartridges than new. I grew up shooting .45-70 Government, .30-06 Springfield, .45 Colt, and others, and my eyes truely look at the old first. But I am young enough to be intrigued by something new, as well.

I have a Model 70 in .300 WSM. Do I think it is magic? No. Do I like it? Yes. It is my newest cartridge and the only cartridge that I shoot that is younger than my father. However, something about it made me interested in the new "design" when it first came out. I am not exactly sure what I like about it...there are quite a few things about it that I like. But I don't put it on a pedastal and make it out to be a magic cure all cartridge that will do anything and everything.

I don't believe the factory claims that it duplicates the tried and true mags that have been around for a while. I don't believe that it will do anything that the "long" versions won't do. But, it will do close to what the originals will do. I don't think I made a bad choice in choosing the Fat Boy, as it has shown me what it is capable of doing, and I don't believe I will ever try to push it into doing something it isn't capable of.

I do believe that they(shorties) have a potential. A potential at what, I am not quite sure of yet. But at any rate, my 300 Fat Boy is still a fun way to spend my money and enjoy my time and at the same time, try to learn something new. I have learned that my rifle is capable of aggin' 3/4" groups at 100 yards. I think that is pretty good...especially for a hunting rifle. I have learned that it comes close to the originals, but it aint all the way there. For me, So what? I am fine with where it is. I have learned that the case design does not have the feeding problems that some have claimed. Mine feeds perfectly. I have learned...no, not really...I have always believed that magazine capacity is not a big deal...at least to me. When I go hunting with my Fat Boy, I only put two rounds in the magazine anyway...this is because I am more concerned with a grizzly trying to eat me than needing the extra insurance for a shot on game. But, I realize I have a lot to learn about big game hunting and maybe someday, a full magazine will be something I feel is important...but does one more round make a big difference...maybe it does.

The shorties will never replace the originals...they have proven themselves time after time. The original magnums are approaching "classic" status. They will not go away and they will soon be in the good company of their predacessors. They will be in the same light as Springfield's creation, O'Connor's delight, and H&H's magnificience. They will be the cartridges that will no longer need to prove their value to the world. It will be a long time before the shorties can claim that status, and they may never be able to do it. But, they are still something new to have fun with. And if they go the way of the do-do and are demoted to a state of obsolescence, so be it. I will contine to have fun with mine and all my other "obsolte" cartridges.

I believe the key to the shorties is accepting them for what they are, not trying to push them into something they are not, and allowing others to enjoy their contribution to the shooting sports and personal recreation. It seems pretty simple to me...if you like 'em, great, I am with you 100%. If you don't like 'em...Hey that is fine, too. All it takes is to look at them, say that it aint for you and let it go at that, instead of being the hangman waiting to spring the trap

Just a thought.....

The advertising stiffs have it wrong. You shouldn't compare the 300 WSM to the 300 Win Mag. You should compare it to the 308 Win because it fits in the same RIFLE. The WSM is a SHORT rifle and the Win Mag is a LONG rifle. Compared to the 308, the WSM is quite a jump.

Of the WSM's the only one that really shows BALLISTIC improvement is the 270. It beats the 270 Win by about 200 FPS and does it in a SHORT rifle.

I'm not going to claim that one is "better" than the other. Just different. And a matter of preference.

Rick

I am consistently amazed by the amount of "religion" that comes out in these threads.

If you don't want to buy a new short magnum that performs as well as the standard then don't but it does not make it a "bad" product or "useless".

I am also amazed by the comments about how a cartridge has accounted for X amount of game. Cartridges do not take game...bullets at a given velocity take game. A 180 grn, 30 cal projectile at 2900 fps kills the same regardless of what it is shot from.

I like short actions cause I think they are "cool", you may think they are a waste...I may think your custom rifle is a waste...

Read the signature line...that sums it up...

But some of the arrogance is a bit much in this thread.

[ 01-05-2003, 17:48: Message edited by: Mike Dettorre ]

I've said before, the short cartridges are a solution to a non-existing problem. As for Dutch, I've pulled 26" barrelled rifles out of a scabbard lots of times-I'm usually not in that big of a hurry when i dismount-maybe you need a 14-hand horse and a 26" barrel. Anyone that thinks a cartridge with less powder room will get the same velocity with the same presure at the same temp. with the same bullet is fooling themselves. The current .300 and 7mm Mags work and are proven in accuracy and in the field. The WSM's will be gone in 10 years and the long RUM's will be a rarity, and no one will care.

I will be the first to say that I have my favorite calibers, likes and dislikes. However, I believe ANY new cartridge that is getting more people to shoot or people to shoot more, is a good thing. We can all benefit from others popularity in the shooting sports. I like heated debates on cartridges and I even give my two cents on forcasting a cartridges lifespan/popularity. But when I talk about its general "worth" I try to put it in "my" context or use "I" phrases.

jstevens,

10 years for now you'll probably have your own foot in your mouth. They're here to stay.

Smallfry,
That's the best response I've seen in this thread!