I will get a Weatherby MkV in 257 Weatherby magnum for hunting everything in North America. I don't see myself ever hunting the big Alaskan bears so I feel that this rifle is a great choice. I should be able to hunt anything from ground hogs to moose with it. I would appreciate it if some of you knowledgeable individuals would share your bullet recommendations for use on elk, deer, and moose.

Thanks,
Casey

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[This message has been edited by JBD (edited 01-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Eagle Eye (edited 01-23-2002).]

I have learned alot from this forum actually. One of the biggest things I have learned is that the big bores are overated! Almost every statement with regard to how well the big guns work is that they are not any better than the smaller rifles and in most cases are in actuality not as good or at best no better than a smaller gun.

It seems logical to me that if you are afraid of the kick that you will be a much better hunter with the smaller rifle which doesn't kick as hard.

I have fired my friends 257 Weatherby and it kicks pretty good actually. I was wondering what anyone thinks of the Nosler ballistic tip bullet. My friend thinks these are just the ticket.

Casey

[This message has been edited by CASEY (edited 01-23-2002).]

Casey, you've got some big bodied deer in your neighborhood as well. I killed a brute west of you in Harper County that weighed about 215 lbs. If I get back that way, I'll bring more than a 270 next time. I passed up a ham shot on a monster buck that I might have taken with a 300 WM or bigger.

[This message has been edited by ForrestB (edited 01-24-2002).]

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Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris

He'll find out in due course if he made the right choice.

In my opinion the 257 anything is marginal for deer and unethical for anything larger than deer. This would mean that your choice is unethical for hunting elk, moose, etc. Will it kill it. Most likely if you hit it in the right place. Hell so will an arrow. The BIG question is: WILL IT KILL THE ANIMAL QUICKLY I.E. HUMANELY? I can tell you the answer is more than likely NO!

One of the reasons you will hear about all these tracking events is because a bunch of guys use rifles that are just too damned small for the game that they are after. They mortally wound the animal all right it just takes hours for it to bleed to death and it covers a great deal of territory before it finally expires. So if you don't have a problem letting some animal suffer for awhile because you don't want to learn to shoot something a bit bigger go ahead and use the little Weatherby. If however, you respect the animal like I do you would use a large enough weapon to ensure that when hit in the chest it dies there and then!

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 01-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 01-24-2002).]

What is difficult to communicate, and never seems to get stated in the medium/small/smaller bore argument, is real world conditions. In the real world, are you presented with the shots that you imagined at home? In the real world, are you able to place your shots as well as off the bench under controlled conditions at the range? In the real world, even with good shots animals don't always drop at the shot, and in that case you want the biggest possible bloodtrail to follow.

I would also highly stress that 90+% of American hunters only hunt whitetails (200-300#'s), yet with that limited experience, they pronounce their deer guns as fully up to the task for elk (500-700#'s) and moose (700-1200#'s)

I don't have nearly enough field experience to have been there and done that enough to fairly judge one cartridge, let alone all. I have studied as much as possible writings of hunters, from all walks of life. Based on that, I've formed some comclusions.

I want a bullet that will be capable of penetrating the chest, create a decent wound channel, and take out the offside shoulder, as well as large enough entrance/exit for leaving a blood trail. Based on that criteria, a 25 caliber is woefully inadequate for larger species, ie elk and moose. For elk, that will take 180-200 gr of lead, for moose, 225-275 gr. Pick the calibers that tickle your fancy, but X grs of lead can only do so much damage, don't matter the caliber, or the velocity, though bullet construction is important.

Pick what you want, but as I stated before, fully understand the limitations of the bullet you pick, take shots within those limitations, live within those limitations and shoot well. Many folks don't understand fully what there bullets will and won't do.

While one shouldn't be grossly undergunned when after the big stuff, I have read many stories in gun rags that say guides would rather someone show up at camp with a caliber they can shoot well than some huge magnum that the hunter is afraid of.

There are plenty of 30-30's used every year to drop moose up here. Now that is a marginal cartridge, Todd.

No matter how you cut it a 170 grain bullet out of 30-30 will undoubtedly produce a larger wound channel than a 257 will. It is the amount of tissue trauma and hemorraging (I think that is misspelled) that determines how quickly an animal bleeds out. Shock will also play a significant role. A 257 doesn't produce much shock or tissue trauma particularily if you are using a partitioned bullet with limited expansion.

I once owned a 257 Weatherby and found it to be a superb coyote rifle. It was good for general varmit work also and a decent pronghorn rifle. You should stop reading those advertisements oops I mean gun magazines and go out and learn something about animals. I have hunted with many many rifles ranging from the 257 Weatherby to a 505 Gibbs. I prefer the big bores because they kill humanely. I do not worship speed for the sake of speed like some do. It is often more trouble than it is worth.

Casey get what you want, but as Paul said you must understand the limitations of the cartridge/rifle combo and yourself. I think you will be better served with the ol' reliable 30-06.

Todd E

Hydrodynamic force is not as big a factor as you make it out to be. While hydrodynamic is the correct term. It means hydro - water, dynamic - in motion (if I remember correctly).

Hydrodynamic force does not produce that much damage unless it acts against something which sufficeintly resists against it. Animal tissue does not provide much resistance. Skulls however do. Shoot an elk in the head with one of those speed demons and I would expect a nice explosion. The shock wave generated by a projectile moving through flesh is a function of the diameter of said projectile. The bigger the diameter of the projectile the bigger the wound channel. It is that simple.

The big advantage (supposedly) of the 5.56x45 Nato is that the bullet is not "balanced". In other words, it reacts wildly to gyroscopic forces acting upon it as it encounters changes in media density. This explains the phenomena of shot in the shoulder exits pelvis.

The hype from the 5.56x45 Nato cartridge has been copied over to the super fast small bores. By small bore I refer primarily to anything under .277".

If you knew much about the physiology of the game you are shooting at you would know that in the rut the blood clotting agents are abnormally high in deer and elk. This condition requires that the bullet in question produce even more tissue trauma to ensure sufficient hemorraging. If you cannot handle the recoil of the larger weapons why don't you limit yourself to animals that will easily succomb to those small bores.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 01-24-2002).]

If you shoot the .257WEA well, then by all means use it and you'll be fine. Bullet placement is by far and away the most important factor in taking a game animal. .25 calibers have accounted for lots of game and, yes, it's true as posted above, your guide or PH would rather you shoot your .257 well on a head of game then to bugger it up will a larger caliber you don't do well with. As far as a bullet choice, try several, pick the best. While others try to make this rocket science, spend your time in the bush testing and practicing. You'll reap the benefits!

I think that the point some of these guys are trying to make is that you shouldn't try things out in the bush. I tend to agree. Wounded animals running around tend to make it into the news even here in Iowa. This cannot be a good thing for us hunters trying to maintain our hunting rights.

Casey get a good 300 Win Mag and shoot 150 grain bullets if you cannot handle the recoil.

Kent

I have lost count of the deer I have killed with the 25-06, well over 50. Have used every thing from 90 gr Sierra BT to 120 Speers. The rifle has killed deer from 50 yds to 400 yds. It is one of the best calibers I have ever seen. Low recoil, flat shooting, accurate.

.257 WEATH. is just more of a good thing. If you cannot make a clean one shot kill with it or a 25-06 then you shouldn't be hunting. Ive have seen more deer wounded by nimrods with cannons that couldn't hit a barn from the inside than I have ever seen wounded by small calibers. Large calibers do not make up for poor shooting.

Where I live in montana the locals generally use 243's ,25's amd .277/.280 for elk. Most haven't found the need for large calibers as they have learned how to hunt and place there shots properly.

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3-7-77

I retired both my STW's after I built my first 257Wby. It is an easy cartridge to do well with.

When the chips are down and the country is big,it is the one I reach for and I've a couple to choose from............

quote:

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Originally posted by 1_pointer:
ToddE- An elk or deer will not take hours to bleed to death if they are shot in the heart/lungss with a .257 bullet. However, if they are shot in other NON-VITAL organs they might and still would if shot with something bigger.

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I never said the smaller bores can't kill just as quickly. The problem is, if the animal takes exception and moves on out, it can cover a suprisingly large distance, or worse yet, get in an absolutely nasty place and die. If you don't have a solid blood trail to follow, you just may never find them.

The real tradeoff is range. If you just must have a rifle for 400 yd shots, the small bores are the way to go. If you can live with 250-300 yd max, a reasonable medium bore will be very shootable, and provide a good bloodtrail if needed.

I personally shelved my 308 for a 35 whelen, not because the 308 haid failed me in the field, nor would it likely. Its because I took the more conservative approach that while 95% of the time the .308 would be fine, I never knew when those 5% shots would occur, and I just couldn't live with myself loosing an animal because I went with the good enough vs best choice.

Yes, the 35 whelen kicks more, yes it isn't a common off the shelf rifle, and yes, I don't expect it to kill any faster then a small bore. I chose it because I looked at the whole big picture, and when taking that stance, a medium bore was the answer. I'll also add that this perspective is an Alaskan looking at moose on down, vs the deer hunter looking at deer on up.

One last point, I've never been bruised with the whelen, nor flinched with it. I got a past shoulder pad, and don't just burn ammo through the gun. I have flinched, and have been bruised by the .308, as I just didn't know any better to use a shoulder pad, nor stop shooting when tired.

To the original post, me thinks a .270, 7 rem mag, or 30-06 will likely serve you as well or better then others. If/when you plan the elk or moose hunt, calculate a few extra $ for a 338 win mag or 375 H&H, and learn how to shoot it as well as your small bore.

Kent

All this cartridge debate,is mostly colorful conversation. It really is no great feat to tote an accurate rifle,that will deliver a capable bullet,to the place it will do the most good. The weak link,isn't normally mechanical(projectile selection excluded). The weakness is generally within the Operator.

A guy who can shoot a 257Wby and understands bullet selection,is going to have damn little trouble punching his tags. I know. I'm one of those guys.

I'd happily leave my sweet shooting Custom built 338Ultra at home,if headed after Elk and grab the 257Wby as I headed out the door. Elk aren't mean,they don't bite,scratch or charge. Their vitals are large and they often stand there after the shot(as opposed to a Bear,who will haul ass 100% of the time). I don't understand the Elk Scary Tales.

Shoot what you like,feed it good bullets,shoot it well and the rest is just shits and giggles...........

"Beware the with only one rifle, for he surely knows how to use it."

IMHO, that quote settles the debate. If you can put the bullet where it needs to me the animal will die.

PS-I know many on here don't know me, but the only centerfire rifle that I own is a .338 Win. that I recieved last May as a college grad. gift, so I am not just trying to force-feed my philosophy.

[This message has been edited by 1_pointer (edited 01-25-2002).]

I don't believe that the 257 is marginal either. I base this off of first hand accounts from people whos opinion matters to me and that I trust. I have hunted deer a few times and used a M1861 Springfield muzzle loader. This is a big bore as it is 58 caliber. I shoot 525 conicals at about 1500 fps. The bullet damage done to the deer was not nearly as impressive as that described to me and illustrated by photos that a good friend gets with his 257.

I really do not believe that the big bores are as good a killing weapons as their proponents say. Actually, some of these people come across to me as never actually shooting either the big gun or an animal with one. If they had they would most likely have the same opinion of them as I do. That being they, the big guns that is, do not produce much damage. All they do in fact is kick hard and produce caliber size holes. BIG DEAL.

In my opinion there are a few guys on this thread that have no hunting or shooting experience whatsoever and are full of it. Again thanks to those of you that provided useful information.

Casey

One thing I can tell you is that in my experience, NOTHING puts down deer faster than my 257 with plain old 100grfactory loads. I've never had one run. jorge

quote:

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Originally posted by CASEY:
I really do not believe that the big bores are as good a killing weapons as their proponents say. Actually, some of these people come across to me as never actually shooting either the big gun or an animal with one. If they had they would most likely have the same opinion of them as I do. That being they, the big guns that is, do not produce much damage. All they do in fact is kick hard and produce caliber size holes. BIG DEAL.

In my opinion there are a few guys on this thread that have no hunting or shooting experience whatsoever and are full of it. Again thanks to those of you that provided useful information.

Casey

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Casey,

My brother lives in a town where most of the entire community swears by the 25-06 as an elk load and they have the filled tags to back it, since Ive not tried this I dont argue the case with him much but personally I subscribe to the theory that both velocity and caliber selection (as well as bullet selection) should be directly proportional to the specific job being done. I dont think there is a Mule deer on the planet that cant be dropped with one shot from a 257 Wby, or a 257 Roberts for that matter, but I will put my coin on energy over hydrostatic shock for real world killing power any day of the week. I also believe that carefull consideration of many things such as velocity, distance, bullet type and placement can make a HUGE difference in overall performance of any particular combination.

I agree as I think most here will that very large calibers for most north american game are entirely unnessesary however that does NOT mean that they are ineffective and to suggest so is absurd. Thats like saying the military should take up the 223 as opposed to 50 calibers, they both have their place and usefulness.

I think youll find that "most" advocates of big bores on the forum like them for Africa and Alaskan type (dangerous) game, which I also have not tried but I will respect the opinions of those who have.

If you really want reccomendations then you should be more specific. One bullet for all types of game is something I would strongly reccomend against. The Ballistic tip for anything larger than antelope is also something I would not advocate. Thats my 02c. Recieve it how you will.

I think you hit on the head with the 30-06.
I agree with the fellow who said, "If your going to stick with one rifle, your certainly going know how to use it" (at least I hope so).
Here's quick run down on what I THINK a one hunting rifle battery should be:
#1 Does the rifle fit you (lenght & pull).
#2 Is it most cartridge you can shoot proficiently.
#3 Does cartridge have a track record real of kills in its history from the common JOE BLOW.
#4 What bullet weights and styles are available for your one hunting rifle.
#5 And the last of me rambling on about this subject, that most big game is taken under a 100 yards.
For me, since I've given up trying to have a different rifle for every type of a game, plus not being able to shoot all of them accurate, and not enough time to practice. I've settle on one: The 30-06.