I had my 4-year-old daughter along while hunting pronghorn yesterday. Knowing how 4-year-olds always need to have their noses wiped, ect., I brought along blue nitrile gloves for field dressing in hopes of keeping clean.

Anyway, my second antelope of the day was bedded down when I took the shot. I have always been told that a bedded animal's vitals are shifted around making it a hard shot to pull off cleanly. I had always doubted it could really be that hard, but I now know that to be true...

As I came down from recoil all I could see was 4 legs kicking in the air.

Upon reaching the antelope I found that the entrance wound looked to be too high judging from the hole in the hide(it was too far back also). During field dressing I found that the entrance was too far back(broke the 4th to last rib), but it was actually quite low on the ribcage. The bullet split a kidney and punctured the liver and stomach(oops).


It exited high and took out a filet and punced through the opposite backstrap. Of course stomach contents was everywhere. But that was the least of my worries.

While pulling out guts I found some white worms that were +-2" long and a quarter of an inch wide. They were vigorously looking for somewhere to reattach/hide or whatever. They had suction cup like mouths. (Tapeworms? in a ruminant?)

The lungs also had some dark spots which I have never seen before. I don't recall if the liver had any spots(I was feeling kinda squeamish and looking forward to being done) but I do recall that it seemed quite large. The heart looked fine(I sliced it open just to check before tossing it).

I took the four quarters and backstraps, but left the neck and ribs(and filets) behind. I felt guilty as I normally take every once of muscle(Alaskan style) plus the heart, kidneys and tongue. Since Wyoming allows you to leave the ribs, neck and organs behind I did just that. The ribs would have mostly been a loss due to the stomach contents.

Below I have the photos of the worms and the lungs. I don't know where the worms came from(I had assumed the punctured gut, but now I don't know). I am going to call the Wyoming F&G Dept on Monday, but I am wondering if any of you have seen this before. Until then this antelope meat will be frozen waiting for further instructions. The meat looked fine, BTW.
One lung:


Other lung(or backside of the first?) I believe the stuff on the outside is bloody grass.


Worm in center of photo.

Worm in center of photo and one in far upper left corner(I believe).

I been wearing gloves for years now I highly recommend gloves to my hunting partners.

I have a box available at camp not only do they make clean up easy they protect on against the many blood borne diseases.

I have worn rubber gloves ever since an outfitter showed me a picture of one his hands when he had "bear finger".. The infection, contracted thru a cut on the finger while skinning a black bear in Alaska..

Primarily an issue with predators but considering the doctors had to split the finger to the bone and scrape the infection out.. OMG!!!

I don't take chances anymore.. :-)

http://forums.outdoorsdirector...Infection-from-Bears

I wear a pair of nitrile gloves and then slip a pair of pregnancy checking gloves over the top of them. Been doing it for several years now. It keeps cleanup of myself to a minimum!

Greybird,

I do the opposite. I put the shoulder length on, then put the nitriles on over them. It gives me better feel. The preg check gloves that I have are pretty loose on my hands.

Either way, it is cheap insurance and makes my lunch taste better later in the day.

Jeremy

quote:

Originally posted by farbedo:
Greybird,

I do the opposite. I put the shoulder length on, then put the nitriles on over them. It gives me better feel. The preg check gloves that I have are pretty loose on my hands.

Either way, it is cheap insurance and makes my lunch taste better later in the day.

Jeremy

Great point! I think I'll try it that way this fall!!

Thanks!!!

I get shoulder length gloves from a veterinary supply store. They are cheap and when it comes time to pull the guts out of a big animal they are sure nice to have.

I am usually hunting is desert or dry country and there never seems to be enough water to completely clean up after field dressing. Gloves make that much easier.

This is one reason I consider the practices of taking a "manly" bite out of a fresh liver or heart, and the rubbing of "first kill" blood on a child's face, as idiotic.

The lungs were probably infected with one or more of the common pronghorn/sheep lung worms. They are very small and hard to see. Also, what you don't see is the thousands and thousands of parasite eggs that must be everywhere in the gut.

quote:

Also, what you don't see is the thousands and thousands of parasite eggs that must be everywhere in the gut.

I'd be cooking that meat a long time in a crock-pot to make sure any parasite eggs are killed. Them worm things looked nasty.

OTOH, great job preying on the sick antelope!

I wonder how many here would walk away from a sick animal they just shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
I'd be cooking that meat a long time in a crock-pot to make sure any parasite eggs are killed. Them worm things looked nasty.

I more or less agree, but I will be waiting to talk to a DG&F biologist before I even take the time to cut it up, much less cook it. I have a feeling it will turn out to be something harmless. But even so, I will not eat it rare!

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I wonder how many here would walk away from a sick animal they just shot.

I am curious: how many of you would have done just that?

BTW, the doe was very healthy looking externally and she had two yearlings in tow. I didn't see the worms until I was 75% finished with the dressing and quartering. And at the time I was blaming myself for gut shooting her and I figured that I would have never seen the worms if the stomach was not punctured(I've read of this in gut shot bears a lot). Now I am leaning towards the possibility that these were "abdominal worms"(Setaria yehi) or something similar.

So does anybody know what kinda worms these are?

My guess is they are tape worms. For those of you who wish to use gloves, Please do so, it might save some unnecessary medical expense down the road.

Yeah, didn't wear them until an acquaintance spent 2 weeks in hospital from some nasty parasite he picked up from an antelope. The animal showed absolutely NO sign of any illness or parasitic infection.

Last year I gutted a fat, healthy looking whitetail doe that had large boils on her liver containing nasty looking wormy things...

Freeze you meat. -10 or lower is best for a couple of months. According to FWP this will kill off anything in the parasite world including trichinella.

Cabela's sells a good gut glove by Akers. It's a heavy duty exam glove, very tough and reasonable price.

I see bruising on the lungs from the shot.
The parasites I've never seen before but
came from exposing the "gut and paunch"
All the tapeworm, worm, parasitic worms I've seen come from inside the digestive tract.
I also would talk to the local biologist before eating any, just for safety sake.
My guess is all will be OK
Nice work on getting busy.

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
Last year I gutted a fat, healthy looking whitetail doe that had large boils on her liver containing nasty looking wormy things..

Thanks for the tips. And those liver worms you saw on your whitetail were probably "bladder worms"(they are called bladder worms because they live in a liquid filled sacs in the liver). I ran across descriptions of them while researching the worms I found. Quite common in some areas.



ravenr
I tried calling you about this when I got home but I didn't leave a message as didn't see the need to bother you as I knew you would weigh in here on AR. I was just hoping you'd say, "the worms are common, no big deal." and put my mind at ease. I will talk to a biologist and forward the photos to get their opinion.

I was hunting near Worland BTW. I also took a nice young doe earlier in the day. The way that meat smelled I can tell that she will be some fine eating.

Off topic but I get a kick out of this story... Very long winded, but worth it if you read to the end. Renee and I headed out at 5am. Renee was back to sleep by 5:30. I left her in the truck and made a few short stalks(keeping the truck in sight). About 6am I drove to a new area and got out to look things over. A few minutes later I spotted a doe standing broadside about 100 yards away. Renee was still asleep in the cab of the truck with the windows partially open and I was only standing a few feet away so I ducked and moved around the back bumper. When I stood the doe was still there so I touched one off. As I came down from the recoil the doe was nowhere to be seen so I figured she dropped where she stood. I just knew that the shot would wake Renee and scare the daylights out of her so I ran around to the front of the truck. To my surprise she was still fast asleep.

I walked out and looking for the doe. 100 yards sure seems a long way to walk when you are looking for an antelope hidden in bitterbrush that is devoid of landmarks. I even had that odd feeling where you question if the animal was really there or if you were just seeing things. I found the doe and she was shot quite well through the lungs.

I drug her back to the truck and woke Renee. She was excited and asked me a million questions as I field dressed and quartered the antelope. A neighboring rancher stopped and congratulated us and thanked us for thinning the heard.

It was getting hot and I knew it would be over 90 degrees soon so we headed back to town to get the meat on ice. While driving across the ranch we spotted a beautiful buck antelope near the road. We watched as he jumped a fence and crossed in front of us. He trotted out into the sagebrush and stopped on a little rise 150 yards out. Not many things look as beautiful as a mature pronghorn standing sky-lined in the sage.

We drove on but I couldn't help but look back several times. He was magnificent.

A couple of minutes later Renee said, "I hope that antelope is going to be OK." Immediately I knew she was talking about the doe I had shot, but I prayed that she was talking about the buck we had just watched cross the road. With a healthy dose of wishful thinking I said, "that buck? He's fine. Did you see him jump that fence? He's just looking for a place to rest." As I knew she would, Renee jumped in and said, "No, I'm talking about the one you killed."

I paused wondering what you say to a 4 year old who voiced concern for an animal that she just witnessed you field dressing and quartering. The "all antelopes go to heaven" speech crossed my mind, but I knew that she deserved better than that. Before I could decide where to start in explaining that all animals must die and that this one would serve a purpose Renee interrupted my train of thought with, "Well, I guess we'll just have to eat it to find out."

You have to love that little girl!

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
I see bruising on the lungs from the shot.

That thought had not crossed my mind as the bullet was on the other(wrong) side of the diaphragm. Now that I look at it, it is pretty clear that the parallel bruised lines are rib marks. I used a 270 Winchester for the first time and impact velocity was about 400-500fps higher that I am used to with the 30-06 or 375.

Just another reason to go gutless. I'll never gut another antelope as their body cavity just plain stinks and we debone ASAP to get the meat cooled. All animals - even us - have parasites living within them. It will be interesting to hear what the biologist says.

Those Texas white tails have a nasty parasite. I imagine they are screw worms. we find them between the muscles, seem to be up to 1 inch long and are just plain nasty to look at wriggling out of and on the deer's carcass.

I just made an appointment for Wednesday to work the cattle which includes worming. We worm at least twice a year, sometimes three.

I'd imagine steak and burgers might taste a little different for some people if they took a look inside the guts of cattle.

That said, I think gloves are a good idea.

Chris

I've seen worms in deer before when gutting them. They have always been in the gut, though. The local biologist said not to worry about it, as did the local rancher where I hunt, who is also a vet. Just make sure the meat is clean and cooked.

Just some extra protein.

Can you get worms just by touching them with bare hands? I thought you had to ingest them to get them?

quote:

You have to love that little girl!

She's a Keeper.
You guys are blessed.
Love Addy backing Mom up w/ her pistola'
Bout time for Drummond's baby to show up too...

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
I hope you do not mind me posting a few photos/stories of my girls?.. I will remove them if you do...

Are you kidding!? Between our two last posts I would say that we have turned this thread around. How often does a horrible thread turn heartwarming on AR?

That photo of your wife, daughter and dog with the antelope is priceless. I hope you have a 16x20 print framed and hanging above the mantle. It just doesn't get any better than that!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MC:
Just another reason to go gutless.


I haven't gutted an animal in years. This includes sheep, elk, hog, caribou, antelope, bear and deer.
Skin it on the ground and take off the front / hind quarters, back straps, fillet the neck meat, brisket, rib meat. When I get it home, it's ready to be hung up or cut and wrapped.
This method also eliminates the need to ever drag any animal to a road or the truck. I doubt that my pack weighs more than 80# with all the meat from any deer that I've ever killed.

Oh ya, I forgot, the last thing I do is stab my hand in between two ribs and pull out the heart, my favorite.

quote:

Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:
Can you get worms just by touching them with bare hands? I thought you had to ingest them to get them?

The greatest source of infection wtih something like this is by accidentally ingesting the eggs. For example, with gloves on you can accidentally get eggs on your clothes, later transfer them back to ungloved hands, and ingest them with a bite of sandwich. And, there are some parasites that enter through the skin. For example, never go barefoot where raccoons hang out.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
So does anybody know what kinda worms these are?

Nasty ones you don't to get!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
So does anybody know what kinda worms these are?

Nasty ones you don't to get!

I don't know Saeed, if we got these worms we might end up fit an trim like you.....





On a serious note, I emailed these photos to the DF&G biologist in the area I was hunting. He thought they were probably just tape worms and therefore harmless but he had yet to see the photos.

After doing some searching I am thinking that they are not tapeworms. I will let you all know when I find out.

Screw worms?
You don't have a clue what you are talking about. You need to take a look at screw worm infestations.

quote:

Originally posted by MC:
Those Texas white tails have a nasty parasite. I imagine they are screw worms. we find them between the muscles, seem to be up to 1 inch long and are just plain nasty to look at wriggling out of and on the deer's carcass.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Screw worms?
You don't have a clue what you are talking about. You need to take a look at screw worm infestations.

Sometimes it not what you say but how you say it...

Guys, here is what I got back from the f&g biologist(he contacted two other biologists from the state university system):

quote:

Fwd: Antelope with worms shot near Worland‏

Bart..............bart.....@wyo.gov)
Add to contacts
8/26/13
To: jbrown
Picture of Bart
Jason, sounds like a tape worm based on the review of the photos.
Bart

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Terry C...........@wyo.gov>
Date: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:21 AM
Subject: Fwd: Antelope with worms shot near Worland
To: Bart...........wyo.gov>


Bart,

Pretty neat pictures. It is not possible to identify the parasites without actually looking at them. Take a look at Todd Cornish's email above. Bottom line is if the meat is properly cooked these parasites pose no human health risk. tec

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Terry..................@wyo.gov>
Date: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Antelope with worms shot near Worland
To: Todd .........@uwyo.edu>


Thanks Todd. tec


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Todd E <T..................uwyo.edu> wrote:

Likely either Thysansoma actinoides (sheep tapeworm that lives in bile ducts in liver, pancreatic ducts or small intestine) or Moniezia expansa (sheep/goat tapeworm of the gut). I believe probably the former (which is rare in pronghorn) as it looks less like the latter (that is a typical segmented cestode, reaches pretty impressive lengths), and if they still have it we want it to confirm! Thysansoma often causes condemnation of livers of sheep at slaughter, but poses no known risk to human health (and all meat should be cooked thoroughly anyhow, yada yada).


TC



From: Terry [mailto:
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:30 AM
To:
Subject: Fwd: Antelope with worms shot near Worland





---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: B


, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:38 AM
Subject: Fwd: Antelope with worms shot near Worland
To: Hank


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Brown <jbrown1>
Date: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:45 AM
Subject: Antelope with worms shot near Worland
To: k

Mr. Kroger

I have attached the photos of the worms and the lungs of the doe we spoke about. I now have the meat in the freezer at -10. I am waiting on word from you that is will be safe to eat before I cut and wrap it.

I'm guessing that the meat is safe, but I am a single father and my 4 year old daughter will also be eating this meat. So I just want to make sure.

Just a side note. My daughter and I moved to Wyoming about three weeks ago(I am a 5th grade teacher in Rock Springs). This is a great state and EVERYONE I have spoken to in the Wyoming Game and Fish department has been very friendly and helpful.

Thanks again,
Jason Brown





Guys,

Take a look at the photos and let me know what you think??? Not sure what the wormy looking thing is in the first two photos, and what is causing the hemorrhaging in the lungs in the 3rd and 4th photo. He shot this antelope in the guts, so no impact was made to the chest cavity.

Thanks,

Bart

E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction

of public business, is subject to the Wyoming Public Records

Act and may be disclosed to third parties.











--
T....................
Wildlife Disease Specialist
Wyoming Game and Fish
Wyoming State Veterinary Laboratory
1174 Snowy Range Road
Laramie, WY 82070
307-........
E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction
of public business, is subject to the Wyoming Public Records
Act and may be disclosed to third parties.


E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction
of public business, is subject to the Wyoming Public Records
Act and may be disclosed to third parties.

© 2013 Microsoft

quote:

if the meat is properly cooked these parasites pose no human health risk

You still have to handle it before you cook it and a four year old's hands will be over every surface and end up in her mouth.

I say, "When in doubt, throw it out". I have had too many friends end up with tropical diseases and parasites.

But call the biologist first and see if he wants it. From your post, someone named Todd E @ uwyo.edu wrote he would like to confirm what it was.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
But call the biologist first and see if he wants it. From your post, someone named Todd E @ uwyo.edu wrote he would like to confirm what it was.

The way I read it was that he wanted to view one of the worms if I still had it. I don't. Keeping one of those ugly things never crossed my mind.

As far as the health risk, you are correct about contamination of cooking surfaces but as Todd pointed out I already have this meat frozen(in quarters) which would kill the parasites. Something I found interesting in the Biologists email was this statement:

quote:

Thysansoma often causes condemnation of livers of sheep at slaughter, but poses no known risk to human health

If I am reading that correctly, sheep that are slaughtered for meat often have these in their livers. When found the livers are thrown out but the rest of the meat goes to market.

I've shot lots of antelope and a great many deer and several elk. Helped butcher Dad's blk bear. Never seen anything like those worms in anything.
I have seen dogs shitting tape worms afew times. Always flat and white like those but, never had the long round sucker section either.
That's strange looking to me. Don't think I'd of kept the animal. Just left it lay and let the FnG know where it was and why etc.

Glad you've gone this far and wish you the best of eating. Enjoy Whyhoming while you're there. This time of yr it's nice. Give some thought about the move during January when the winds blowing and temps run about -40. It'll give you something to consider I promise.
I spent most of a day under my tractor thawing the brake drums and tires loose from the mud puddles and blown snow that melted and locked me down when the clerk at Lil America said the wind chill temp was -110. They showed me how quick diesel #2 would turn to jelly and not pour out of an open oil can.

It's true about the snow never melting up there, it just wears out from blowing back n forth!
Have fun, stay safe,
George

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Enjoy Whyhoming while you're there.

I'm here to stay.

BTW, it sounds like the worms were liver worms, not tape worms. But yes, pretty gross!

Just think, if I had not shot the liver and kidney I would have never know the parasites were there(I usually toss the liver).

NIH says, "Avoiding raw meat and cooking meat well enough (to greater than 140 degrees F for 5 minutes) will prevent tapeworm infection. Freezing meats to -4 degrees F for 24 hours also kills tapeworm eggs."

Other sources say, "Adequate cooking of meat destroys the tapeworm larvae and will prevent infection by tapeworm. Freezing meat to -5C (23F) for 4 days, -15C (-5F) for 3 days, or -24C (-11.2F )for 1 day kills the larvae as well."

I have been using gloves for over 25 years... The first time I pulled them out, they were laughing at me...I was hunting in Pa, where we used to punt on MONSTER deer drives during the one day does season... we had dropped 8 deer is one drive, and my companions were all laughing at me while we were gutting and dragging, but by the time we got back to the truck, I had nice clean hands and they were all covered with frozen blood and looking for anything that wasn't frozen to clean up... They all use gloves now

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MC:
Just another reason to go gutless.


I haven't gutted an animal in years. This includes sheep, elk, hog, caribou, antelope, bear and deer.
Skin it on the ground and take off the front / hind quarters, back straps, fillet the neck meat, brisket, rib meat. When I get it home, it's ready to be hung up or cut and wrapped.
This method also eliminates the need to ever drag any animal to a road or the truck. I doubt that my pack weighs more than 80# with all the meat from any deer that I've ever killed.

I kinda do this sometimes myself. In Montana the tenderloins must be kept and I havent found a way to get them without gutting.

J,

Those are lung flukes. The meat should be fine.