I was surprised at the small difference between the .30-06 and .300 Win Mag. Per the Federal catalog, with 180 gr Barnes triple shock the .30-06 starts at 2700 ft/sec and the .300 mag starts at 2960. After 100 yds the bullet from the magnum is down to 2752.

Say 120 yds to drop the velocity to the same as the '06 - 2700 ft/sec. So I figure that the difference in velocity is equivalent to only about 120 yards difference in range.

If you zero both for 200 yards, the difference in where the bullet is 10" below point of aim is more like 20 yards difference.

Hodgdon lists the fastest 180 grain 30.06 load at 2798 fps and the fastest load for the 300 Win at 3042 fps for a difference of 242 fps.

With a 200 yard zero the difference in trajectory will be just over 3.5" at 400 yards (according to JBM)

Whether you are using a 30-06 or a 300 Win Mag, you must know your rifle and loads. Don't just trust the published data - often the published data is from a test barrel which will not translate to a hunting rifle. Test fire the loads in each rifle at the respective distances and record the information. Either of these calibers will do the job just fine.

I've never succumbed to the magnum craze and instead follow my appeal for the moderate cartridges like the 6.5x55, .257 Roberts, 7mm-08, .308 WCF and such. You'd be surprised how little the magnums actually offer over many standard rounds, and while there may be advantages, the tradeoffs are generally more recoil, more muzzle blast and less cost efficiency for the reloader.

Two of my best-ever bucks were taken with a Contender carbine fitted with a 20" barrel in 7mm Bullberry, which is nothing more than the 7mm International Rimmed (30-30 necked down & shoulder angle steepened) with the unnecessarily long neck trimmed away to give an overall case length of 1.750".

I used the Sierra 130 grain Single Shot Pistol bullet at 2505 fps MV to take the top buck and the Nosler 140 grain Solid Base at 2480 fps MV to take the one below it.

The third buck was taken at 223 ayrds using a Contender with a 26" MGM barrel in 6.5 Bullberry IMP (aka 6.5x30-30 AI). I used one of my fireforming loads with a 125 grain Partition at 2700 fps to take this deer, and bullet performance was textbook.

On the hogs, the whopper in the first photo was taken with the 7mm Bullberry and the 120 grain TTSX at 2640 fps MV. The hog below that was taken at around 160 yards using a prototype Berger 140 grain VLD Match Grade Hunting bullet.

The last hog was taken at over 250 yards with a 6.5x55 using a 140 grain bullet at something over 2700 fps MV.

The list could go on but would get redundant. I geuss my point is this: if I can't kill an animal cleanly inside of 300 yards with one of my moderate-velocity rounds, I wouldn't be able to kill it with anything bigger, faster or louder, either.

Nice pictures

Thanks

Ah....Bobby didn't tell you that he hunts everyday.

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
Ah....Bobby didn't tell you that he hunts everyday.

...........and many nights.

PS: Just to be clear, pig hunting is legal 24/7 in Texas.

OK, OK...I plead the 5th, and my therapy begins now:

Hello, my name is Bobby, and I am a self-confessed hunt-aholic...

In thick bush, it ain't no fun trailing deer. In my experience bigger, faster means deader faster. Sometimes bigger alone works fine, like 44 rem mag vs 30-06 at close range. In my experience the slow 44 means less trailing than the 06 and therefore deader faster.

In any case there comes a point when you get older where faster, quicker, bigger means getting game down where it stands.( Even if the gain is small.) What might be lost in percieved recoil is gained in decreased knee pain, less lung busting, sore muscles, from trailing and deafness is a reality, regardless.

I personally believe that young hunters should learn to hunt their first game with 35 and 36 calibers, such as 9.3 and 35Win, 35 Whelen. I know in my case when I started, it would have meant less frowns from my dad, when I had to get him to come and help me find my deers.

Exit31 wrote:

quote:

In any case their come a point when you get older where faster, quicker, bigger means getting game down where they stand.

I disagree. My moderately-powerful rounds kill game just as fast as anything out there. The key is understanding the anatomy of the game, matching the bullet to the quarry and to the velocity window at which it is operating and then executing the shot by placing said projectile in the prescribed spot.

A magnum will not make up for poor shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Exit31 wrote:

quote:

In any case their come a point when you get older where faster, quicker, bigger means getting game down where they stand.

I disagree. My moderately-powerful rounds kill game just as fast as anything out there. The key is understanding the anatomy of the game, matching the bullet to the quarry and to the velocity window at which it is operating and then executing the shot by placing said projectile in the prescribed spot.

A magnum will not make up for poor shooting.

I disagree, you cannot chose the spot when the game is routinely running like a bat out of hell in thick stuff. You shoot at what you got, provided it is not belly. More than not the "spot" is under the flag or somewhere in the sides, as it is bounding away from the shooter.

Exit31 wrote: "I disagree, you cannot chose the spot when the game is routinely running like a bat out of hell in thick stuff. You shoot at what you got, provided it is not belly. More than not the "spot" is under the flag or somewhere in the sides, as it is bounding away from the shooter"

You bet I can choose. I can choose to NOT take that shot.

I doubt I'll ever be desperate enough to take a shot "under the flag," as you call it.

As for me, I'll continue to prefer 1200 ft./lbs. of energy through the boiler room over 5000 ft./lbs. anywhere else.

I have shot the .300 Winny for over 30 years and load the 180 grain bullets to 3100 fps. Eight of my Elk hunting buddies shoot the same load and always will. Big difference in shooting in Colorado and back East. Good shooting.

If you’re hunting animals between 50-150 yards you probably won’t see a big difference between a 30-06 and the 300 Win Mag. But you will see a difference shooting at 200-400 yards. Also the 300 Win Mag will shoot and handle heaver bullets a lot better, especially the 180 and 200 grn bullets.

My father has a 30-06, I have a 300 Win Mag and my brother shoots a 300 Ultra Mag. All are different. The Ultra Mag used to be the “biggest and badest†for shots over 300 yards until my father bought a 30-378 Wby. Now that is our new long range gun.

Corax,
Nope. Not much difference in terminal performance with the same 180 grain bullet in front of the powder out to the ranges most game is killed in. In field conditons there is not many folks who can use the extra 120 yards of shooting range. There might be some disagreement about what that range is but I am comfortable out to 375 on Deer and maybe 300 on Elk with the 30-06 if I have a solid rest including the shooting sticks I carry. There are some however who can hit a long, long ways off and if they love the 300 Win Mag or other mag to get that done, i am all for that.

Fury01,
How can you be comfortable shooting deer with a 30-06 at 375 yds. and elk at 300 yds. when the deer is a lot smaller and the vitals are also much smaller?
A bullet through the heart no matter how big or small the bullet is will kill any animal.

Hipshot

What got me started on this is a moose hunt in Newfoundland I am scheduled to go on in October. I will be taking a .30-06 and was starting to second-guess my choice, until I looked up the numbers.

Corax
Take your 30/06, you won't be undergunned.
These discussions are always entertaining and usually get heated, the fact of the matter is that the little bit of difference you see between the 30/06 and a 300 mag is a big difference to some people and enough difference to some other people. Purely a matter of perception for the most part. Over the years the animals we hunt and kill with these weapons have not changed however our perception of how big and powerful a cartridge it takes to kill them has changed. When I was a kid most Brown Bear and Grizzly Bear hunting stories involved a 30/06, today you are laughed off the forum for merely implying that the 30/06 can kill them, have the Bears changed so much in those years?
I think not.

Based on that concept then any caliber is as good as the other..The killing power and trajectory of rifles is a stair step, one being higher than the one below it...

I love the 30-06 and its hard to beat, but the 300s will beat the socks off it, if your a good enough shot to take advantage of the difference.

My 300 H&H will deliver a 200 gr. bullet at just a bare thread off 3000 FPS..That is a couple of hundred FPS and 20 grs. more bullet, is that an advantage? I feel good about it, some do not..or I can beat the 06s 2700 FPS,even a hot loaded 2800 FPS with the 300s by about 300 or so FPS, that is substantial.

By the same token, my favorite elk caliber is the .338 Win. and it beats the 300 by a bit and the 06 by a lot.

I'm glad we have those choices to make.

Both calibers work very well in the hands of a good hunter. It's the nut behind the butt that matters most.

Atkinson,
The .300 H&H built it's reputation at .30-07 balistics !

Hipshot

quote:

Originally posted by Corax:
I was surprised at the small difference between the .30-06 and .300 Win Mag. Per the Federal catalog, with 180 gr Barnes triple shock the .30-06 starts at 2700 ft/sec and the .300 mag starts at 2960. After 100 yds the bullet from the magnum is down to 2752.

Say 120 yds to drop the velocity to the same as the '06 - 2700 ft/sec. So I figure that the difference in velocity is equivalent to only about 120 yards difference in range.

Hornady claims 2900 fps! With 180's

Ray
I understand your point.
My point is that the difference between the 300 and the 30/06 is not a huge difference. Yes it is faster with the same size bullet but what does that really add up to in killing power?
I have a killed a Bull at over 400 yards with a 30/06 and a 180 grain Sierra bullet and it entered the point of the shoulder and exited same on the other side leaving a larger than golf ball size exit wound and it was dropped in its tracks. If I carried a 300 Win Mag I wouldn't be shooting any further than I would with my '06 and the elk wouldn't be any deader!
So for me I don't see the need for a 300 Mag if I've got an '06 for me there is no real advantage. I won't be trading in my trusted 30/06 for a 300 Win Mag cuz I just don't see there being a huge difference. Yes a .338 Win Mag is a step up as is a .358 Norma Mag as is a .375 H&H and on to the .458 and so on.
Not trying to make a huge arguement but I have a hard time seeing the 300 Win Mag as a huge advantage in killling power over the 30/06, just my opinion others may be different.

I am a big fan of the magnums, I hunt Texas white tails with a 375 H&H, and have killed a few with a 458 Win Mag.

With that said, I have went thru in the past and checked on the ballistics of the 30-06 against most of the 30 cal. mags, including the 30-378.

With the same weight bullet, 180 grain, even the mighty 30-378 is only a few hundred feet per second faster than the '06.

A properly placed bullet from any of them is going to kill the animal, and the animal is not going to know or give a dang about what perforated it.

I don't like the 30-06, have never owned one, and never will.

As big a fan of Elmer Keith as I am, to say a 30-06 is not an adequate gun, that in competent hands will not do the job asked of it is flat wrong, don't care who says it.

One of the things I have found over the years, is that way too many average shooters try to make up for lack of experience and expertise by using rifles that are beyond their abilities.

The 30 Mags and larger are specialized tools, and for the folks that develope the knowledge and skill to use them the way they are intended to be used, they are awesome.

But a person tryin to make up for a lack of skill or expertise, only frustrates themselves and creates more problems than if they just stayed with an '06 or even a 270. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
The 30 Mags and larger are specialized tools, and for the folks that develope the knowledge and skill to use them the way they are intended to be used, they are awesome.

How would someone develop the knowledge and skill for a 300 Mag if they don’t use one?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I am a big fan of the magnums, I hunt Texas white tails with a 375 H&H, and have killed a few with a 458 Win Mag.

With that said, I have went thru in the past and checked on the ballistics of the 30-06 against most of the 30 cal. mags, including the 30-378.

With the same weight bullet, 180 grain, even the mighty 30-378 is only a few hundred feet per second faster than the '06.

A properly placed bullet from any of them is going to kill the animal, and the animal is not going to know or give a dang about what perforated it.

I don't like the 30-06, have never owned one, and never will.

As big a fan of Elmer Keith as I am, to say a 30-06 is not an adequate gun, that in competent hands will not do the job asked of it is flat wrong, don't care who says it.

One of the things I have found over the years, is that way too many average shooters try to make up for lack of experience and expertise by using rifles that are beyond their abilities.

The 30 Mags and larger are specialized tools, and for the folks that develope the knowledge and skill to use them the way they are intended to be used, they are awesome.

But a person tryin to make up for a lack of skill or expertise, only frustrates themselves and creates more problems than if they just stayed with an '06 or even a 270. JMO.

Yep, nothing makes up for shooting ability. In fact the 308 will do everything that the 30.06 will do and no one would be able to tell the difference

I now shoot my 375 like other people shoot a 30.06 but that has taken me about 20 lbs of gunpowder in the last year to do so.

I owned a 30.06 once in a Garand. It seems like it was a good cartridge 50-100 years ago but I don't have any use for one. It will do the job in competent hands but with the same level of competence the 300 will do everything better.

With everything else being equal: Bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther.

So how big an increase are YOU comfortable with. What are you willing to tolerate to get those increases. More recoil, more muzzle blast, more $ per shot?

FWIW my son and I shot 10 head of plains game in Namibia a couple of months back. He use a 22 inch barrel .308 with 165gr TBBCs and I used a 26 inch barreled .300 WM with 200 gr Nosler Partitions, both Fed Prem factory loads. Luckily all animals were one shot kills, but if you measured how far they ran, reactions, etc there is no doubt that the .308 load killed the 2 Oryx, 2 impalas, 1 warthog, and 1 kudu FASTER than my .300 WM killed 1 kudu, 1 oryx, 1 warthog, and 1 zebra. Not a big difference and certainly a small sample, but the point is, shoot them well, with a bullet half way designed for the job and any animal doesn't go far. It ain't the caliber, it ain't even so much the bullet (match kings kill hogs and deer DRT, have done it myself), it is the placement. That said, I personally prefer the .300 WM in lighter bullets for whitetails, the flatter trajectory makes range guessing less critical.

I use both why because I can. They well both kill well if the bullet is placed properly.

I use a .30 caliber carbine for all my hunting-------------when I need more power-I JUST PULL THE TRIGGER HARDER !!!!

hIPSHOT

Having seen what my .300H&H will do to an elk, I don't ever see the reason to "gun-down".

I have owned both, shot both at targets only and decided to go another way. I think the 30/06 is an excellent cartridge as is the 300 win mag. Opinion well if ya can't hit it with an 06 you won't be able to with a 300 mag. Now if you want more down range energy the 300 mag wins but only by a slight margin. I think it comes down to personal preference more than anything.
Sensible all around: 30/06
A little bit more: 300 Win. Mag

Hipshoot,
Deer die better than Elk. Elk, poorly killed, like to die in the nastiest places. It isn't size of the target area that makes my distance requirements up. It is the "width" of the target. I like to shoot through game and break bone if I can along the way. Nice broadside shots on Elk have been hard to come by for me. I used the 338 and Elmers 275 Speer at about 2600 out of a 26" barrel for some years without failure of any kind as a younger man, but now am content with my old '06 and Premiums that make two holes most of the time.
regards

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I love the 30-06 and its hard to beat, but the 300s will beat the socks off it, if your a good enough shot to take advantage of the difference.

beat it maybe.....beat the socks off it is pure bullshit Ray!!!!

I've owned three .300 Magnums and as many .30-06 rifles and the "go to" is easily my featherweight M-70 in .30-06 as it weighs about a pound less and does everything I can do with a .300 magnum.

If one really needs more than the .30-06 then he needs a .375 H&H or the ilk!

I have both and both work very well, when aimed correctly. Both are very accurate. If I could have only one rifle, I'd choose the 300 WM, but only if it was used primarily for hunting and not target shooting. If I wanted a first-rate hunting rifle and I loved to shoot often at targets, I'd choose the '06 - that is, the '06 is a bit cheaper to shoot and easier on barrels.

I see this same arguement on several boards, and it always pans out the same way. If you take the very experienced, straight shooting veterans out of the picture who could probably do everything the 30-06 can with even a 7x57, you're left with the average hunter. The average hunter might not have years of experience, or tons of practice. The 30-06 will do is, sure, no question. Someone mentioned it above, the magnums take estimating range A BIT out of the picture. Start pushing past 350 yards with a 30-06 and you'd better be sure you know how far you are shooting, and be confident at your shot. The 300 mags at that range are still flat enough that 20-40 yards off in guestimation isnt going to matter as much. Even a few inches less drop at extended ranges can mean the difference between clean killed game, or wounded or missed game. Especially more crucial if you're hunting involved lots of time and money. Gotta remember not everyone hunts a short distance from home, has multiple tags or months long seasons. Some of us get less then a handfull of days, very far from, with expensive tags and trip costs, and maybe guides and have ONE chance at ONE animal. I don't think anyone here agrees that magnums make up for poor shooting, but it can make up for less then stellar range estimation.

I like the flat trajectory, so I like my 30 mags with lighter tough bullets screaming fast.

Another thing I think gets lost often in this oftly repeated arguement, which was mentioned briefly at the start, is hunting differs in all areas of the country. What works in Mississipi might not work in Maine, and might not work in Wyoming

quote:

How would someone develop the knowledge and skill for a 300 Mag if they don’t use one?

By starting out with an '06 or 270 and then working their way up.

Many times the only experience a begining hunter/shooter gains from trying to start off with one of the 30 Mags, without having knowledge of the basic mechanics of how to hold the gun properly and what is going to happen when the thing goes off, is a really great case of flinchitus, and may possibly never be able to handle one of the big rifles.

If a person gets a few rounds from say an '06 under their belt and have no problem with the recoil, then if they want to they are ready to step up to the 30 Mags or larger.

The fact still remains, the 30-06 and the 270 have probably accounted for more dead animals, world wide than other cartridges, but they are not the be all end all for everyone that hunts, and neither are the 30 Mags and larger rouinds. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


The fact still remains, the 30-06 and the 270 have probably accounted for more dead animals, world wide than other cartridges, but they are not the be all end all for everyone that hunts, and neither are the 30 Mags and larger rouinds. JMO.

Beautifully put! So many people always put down the large amount of choices we have these days to hunt with. Variety is the spice of life! If you're tried and true works for you (nifty rhyme there) thats great! If hot flashy and new works for you, thats great too! Just use enough gun to do the job, at the distance you're comfortable and confident at, and go hunting.

Fury01,
I hear ya! Penetration is of upmost importance!

Funny, I was down at my reloading bench in the basement and was looking at some of the "AMMO TO SHOOT" and there was a box of .300 Win. Mag. that I had forgotten about. It is for an inherited rifle that I need to work up loads for and find something to shoot with.
It is loaded with 180 gr. Hornady spire points loaded to 2665 fps.
As you can see, if you have a .300 WM you can also have .30-06 ballistics.

Hipshot