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OK, confess, which one of you did this? http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/Mange_found_in_Yel...070303-042209-3747r/ Mange found in Yellowstone wolves BILLINGS, Mont., March 3 (UPI) -- Mange, a debilitating disease imported to Montana a century ago to kill wolves, has returned to Yellowstone Park and the animals reintroduced there. Biologists identified the disease in a 9-year-old wolf earlier this winter, The Billings Gazette reported. The wolf, the alpha male in Mollie's Pack, has disappeared and biologists say he may have died. Mange is caused by a burrowing mite. It leaves wolves emaciated and debilitated, vulnerable to other diseases or to harsh conditions. While other infectious diseases that strike wolves kill those infected and move on, biologists describe mange as persistent. "Mange would be around in a messy kind of way every year," said Doug Smith, head of the Yellowstone Wolf Project. "This is an exotic, introduced disease we want to eradicate but it may be impractical to do so." In 1905, when wolves were considered a pest, wildlife officials in Montana began capturing wolves and coyotes, infecting them with mange and releasing them. | ||
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THey will spend a few million, on top of the 40 or so million they have already spent to put the wolves here, to try and control the mange! Oh well, since no one can or will be able to shoot any for a few years, at least mother nature will get a few! | |||
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Mange exists here all the time. It helps to control wolves and coyotes. they seem to still do ok even if some of them die of it. Just like the ungulates-some die from wolves and some survive. keep things on the level and your game populations will be ok. No need to keep running around screaming that the sky is falling just because you have some wolves around. the chef | |||
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I agree w/calgary chef ,I see mange in coyotes and foxes constantly.This story doesent wash with what I see unless its a different strain.w/regards | |||
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Agree w/calgary and gophershooter: mange can be seen on coyotes all the time. Nothing new. Somehow I don't feel too bad for the wolves... | |||
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Main reason some of you hate wolves is because they kill so called game animals. and they are better hunters than you are. Plain and simple "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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Gosh Jarrod. Thanks. However, its neither plain or simple. There's no doubt wolves are better killers. However, most "hunters" consume the meat of the animals they kill. Wolves do not always do that. They kill for fun as well as for meat. Most of us who shoot gophers and priarie dogs do the same thing. What's your point about that idiot statement (specifically, please)? If you're assuming that its jealousy you're wrong. Game animals are not "so called game animals". They are game animals. Not all hunters oppose the re-introduction of wolves completely. Its the Clintonian Pollitically Correct method that humanizes wolves and "seeks a deeper understanding of this complicated predator". Rubbish. To claim that wolves are any more complicated than any other pack or herd animal is rediculous. They are no more or less complicated than any other. Wolves were killed off in most of this country (including Kentucky) long ago because they compete(ed) with farmers, ranchers and hunters. I am personally bothered by the method of reintroduction that puts a serious pain in the backside of several of my personal friends who own and run ranches. Wyoming had it right from the beginning: shoot on sight when outside the Yellowstone Zoo and designated wilderness areas. This will train them and controll their numbers and give us blood thirsty killers something to shoot at! | |||
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That makes the most sense to me. I heard some figures on how many animals the current Montana population of wolves kill each year and it was staggering. Montana isn't remote Canada or Alaska, the ever increasing number of wolves is tearing down the populations of game animals in a dramatic way and will only get worse if their numbers go unchecked. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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Dempsey;A perfect example of that happened in your area about 4 years ago.A friend of mine Neil Windecker was managing the Sieben ranch he and his wife rode out to check on some sheep and found 9 dead sheep,the wolf was under a tree about 100 yards away.This wolf came from The Turner pack near Bozeman and was collared.None of the sheep had been eaten.Hundreds of sheep have been killed like this in the Paradise Valley south of Livingston.w/regards | |||
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Do you mean the folks that run on BLM land and national forest land and state land... that the PUBLIC owns??? So do we "the PUBLIC" have any say in how these lands are managed? Wolves certainly need to be managed through hunting---you'll get no argument from me about that... I am waiting for the day I can go buy an Idaho wolf tag and enjoy the sport. But, if the costs of doing business (i.e. a cattle rancher gets less production when wolves are present then when they are not-- equating to less profit) why wont the market adjust and the price go up?? Of course, competitors from the midwest do not have wolf "problems" so this could merely mean that cattle ranching in the mountain states where wolves are a "problem" may no longer be the most efficient means of production. Dozens of industries have gonr through similar transitions in the past.... Why should ranchers get a "free pass?" Flame on gentleman.....(this where I begin to miss VG.... but KUDU will do in his absence I suppose.....) IV minus 300 posts from my total (for all the times I should have just kept my mouth shut......) | |||
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I'm under the impression that farmers/ranchers can claim for the costs of lost livestock in canada. I don't know what it's like for your guys but I'd be interested to know. I always stick up for the wolves when it comes to the idea of elimination, on the other hand I'm all for hunting them. the chef | |||
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Mange in fox and Coyote is a general sign of overpopulation. Gianni | |||
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Chef;You are correct if you can prove it happened,but in running cows over thousands of acres it is diffucult to prove how the animal was killed because sometimes young calves are completely eaten,and larger animals are discovered well after the kill and bones are scattered everywhere.The unmeasureable is when the packs put a lot of pressure on the herds cows and sheep.They get so nuts and fearful they wont even breed. What gets me are people like IV and Brent rants about use of public land for grazing,there is not that much of it for big outfits mostly small ranches do it who couldnt survive other wise.They have to maintain all of the USFS fences and we usually do it to keep them off us. | |||
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I can think of some great reasons why cattle ranching should be subsidized by taxpayers....I am asking (collectively) why do you (anyone who cares to post) think the taxpayers should subsidize cattle ranching. I hope there are better ideas than "maintaining fences??" IV minus 300 posts from my total (for all the times I should have just kept my mouth shut......) | |||
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Funny how for some of you, it is impossible for any cow or sheep grazing for $1.35/AUM on our public land to die of anything but a wolf or bear attack, but for those of you who must know... 2005 in Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem Confirmed Kills 97 cattle 244 sheep 11 dogs 103 wolves removed as a result of management actions That is pretty good odds, considering there are 10's of thousands of sheep and cattle grazing in the same areas where wolves reside, that would be less than 0.005% being killed by predators. No one mentions cattle dying from eating larkspur, or sheep being struck by lightning. Oh, did I mention that the Defenders of Wildlife paid these individuals over $300000 reimbursement for confirmed kills?
There is a western word for this statement...BAD ANIMAL HUSBANDRY!!! That is why all good operators hire riders to ride the cattle/sheep each and every day.
Are you freaking kidding me? Did you read this in a fairy tail?? Man, some of you do a great impersonation of someone with a lobotomy..... MG | |||
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I am not a wolf fan, but I'll agreethat most of the wolf kills will be reported by people who don't check their cattle as they should. Same thing happens in a similar manner in my countryside. Always have the same idiots who claim to get a cow shot during deer season. The only time they check cattle is after deer season, find a dead one, so they blame hunters. Funny that we had cattle for a few lifetimes and never had one hit by deer hunters, even when we were running ditches next to them. For some every dead cow will be a wolf kill, whether it was already dead when they started eating it or not. That said mange is the controller of coyote populations, and I would expect the same for wolves. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Yea they are good, but i know for a fact that "aren't" faster than a speeding bullet! So, come to think of it, i guess i'm a pretty good hunter too.. DM | |||
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stevens, you sound almost as anti-ranch as the goat. You really think it is possible to check every cow every day in rough and broken range country , manytimes heavily timbered and over tens of thousands of acres ? I really think goat knows about as much about good, or bad, animal husbandry as a california surf bum. And IV , if you figure the ranchers should get off public lands , maybe also the government should keep their pets(wolves) off of private property ? | |||
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sdgunslinger; Good post but doubt if those three,will figure it out. We have an irrigated alfala hay bench 21/2 miles long by 1 mile wide.We get two cuttngs off it and then irrigate it to use for late pasture.But instead it is eaten to the ground by deer and an elk herd of roughly 400.We spend thosands of dollars repairing fences every year torn down by elk.w/regards | |||
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Heck no. I'm talking about personal friends who are south of I90 and have active populations of wolves on their propery who can do very little about it. I totally agree that the market should adjust to these facts. However, cattle are raised all over the US (TONS in Florida of all places). The individuals who have higher land values due to trust funders buying neighboring ranches (property taxes go up) AND have to deal with wolves are at a bit of a disadvantage compared to, say, a guy in Nebraska. I'm offended that some industries (oil, ranching, etc.) requires my tax subsidy to operate and others (manufacturers, hair salons, etc.) do not. Ranchers have a powerful lobby.
You are delusional. Do you have a cat? Ever seen the video of the killer whales torturing seals? There's enough evidence of wolves, mtn. lions, coyotes, otters, etc. killing for killing's sake. Perhaps I should have been more proper and avoided the use of the word "fun". My bad.
Spend some time outdoors and observe (this will take time; years) flocks, herds, packs, etc. and tell me that wolves are any more complicated than any other critter. Again, my bad for the use of the word "fun".
I don't think, nor did I imply, that ranchers should get a free pass. Perhaps we can turn this around and claim that, since the DC idiots only reintroduced wolves into Yellowstone and not Oklahoma, Iowa or Texas (where they would do just fine) that those ranchers out of the Yellowstone area are the ones getting the free pass. The public land grazing allotments/subsidies in my opinion are a good use of public resources as long as those getting the massive subsidy stop complaining about it and actually pay enough to make it break even, right along with us hunters and hikers who use the same resource. (If ranchers are subsidized, so are tree huggers and hunters who use the same roads). I'm a user fee advocate. The farming and ranching industry in Montana gets 30% (THIRTY PERCENT!!!) of its income from federal subsidies. I'd rather pay lower taxes and pay more for food. | |||
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[QUOTE]You really think it is possible to check every cow every day in rough and broken range country , manytimes heavily timbered and over tens of thousands of acres ? [QUOTE] It may not be some cornfield like you're used to sdgunslinger, but the operators who lease parts of the Bridger Teton don't have much problem checking their cows every day, or at least every other day. Why does it seem that the ones who claim "excessive losses" are generally those who turn their livestock out, forget about them for a month or two, then can't figure out where all of them went during a count off. MG | |||
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My uncle is a very successful "cattle man" or rancher if you want to call it that. He has a saying that his father taught him. "if you don't want to lose any cattle-don't have any" Losses in any business are part of doing business. I'm not saying that ranchers should lose money due to wolves. But to think no losses should ever apply is wrong also. Additionally thosae who are losing alfalfa to the elk should welcome the wolves with open arms-y'all can't have it both ways. the chef | |||
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Chef;I dont care how many elk the wolves kill we are over run with them. Madgoat;You are full of B.S.Nobody has that much help.Our ranch is 19,000acres and our cows will be in 4 bunches.We have 5 cowboys and somedays you have to priortise what you do w/respect to what has to be done.In some places we haul our horses 14 miles before we can start to ride and you never find all of them.w/regards | |||
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I just had this image of cows counting off.  Sounds like a case of big hat, no cattle disease! | |||
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My family (on my fathers side) ranched in NE Washington during the 40's,50's and 60's. He retired in the 70's and recently passed away at the age of 97. I asked him awhile ago about what he thought of the wolf reintroduction, surprisingly (I expected a different response from a lifelong rancher) he thought ranchers today had it "too easy"-- when he chose ranching as a away of life it was because he could raise cattle for a profit in an environment which had pitfalls that needed to be overcome. Some of those pitfalls were large carnivores that wanted to eat his cattle. So, I guess I'll ask again: Should the public have any say in how PUBLIC lands are managed?? Are there better justifications than "maintaining fences?" IV minus 300 posts from my total (for all the times I should have just kept my mouth shut......) | |||
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IV minus 300 posts from my total (for all the times I should have just kept my mouth shut......) | |||
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Glad to learn that I'm anti-rancher, be a real surprise to my Dad and Grandfather, my uncles, as most all of them are cattlemen. I know a bit about checking cattle and fixing water gaps, thank you. As a matter of fact I just came back in the house, spent four hours after work working cutting horses. My statement is true, that if you don't check them regularly, it is hard to tell what they die from after the coyotes are eating them. Hell, we counted cows every time some lightning hit, which in Mo.,sometimes a week or two straight. I am familiar with checking cows, I was born doing it, it isn't that hard if that is your livelihood. Cattle and horses sent me to college, I don't need to learn anything about checking cattle. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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jstevens, your dad, grandfather and you might have a different oppinion on wolves if you had them in MO around your cattle. Everybody is an expert, but they probably don't live with them on a daily basis. Oh, you can have all the cowboys and riders you want checking stock during the day, but most of the problems occur at night. So don't judge ranchers to hard, until you walk in their shoes. Daryl Shehan. | |||
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Why don't we introduce them (wolves) in Kentucky and see how you like the "better hunters" managing your deer populations. I think you will have a different take on them then. Mink and Wall Tents don't go together. Especially when you are sleeping in the Wall Tent. DRSS .470 & .500 | |||
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Yes jstevens , I realize you know about checking cows in Missouri........how many acres does it take to run a cow there ? How many acres do you suppose it takes on BLM or FS ranges in Wyo. or Montana ? Does the terrain remotely resemble Missouri ? All I am saying is give the western cattlemen a break , it just ain't possible to keep as close tabs as we can in the midwest. And if a wolf kills a calf down in some canyon it may take half a day to ride into , you are right , by the time it is found there is no telling what killed it , and Defenders of Wildlife will yell coyote , or lightning , or a dozen other means of death and make no payment . IV......what your rant boils down to a classic case of tyranny by the majority , It may be lawful but as far as I'm concerned , it is not moral. If you owned dangerous large dogs that were attacking or harrassing your neighbor's stock or otherwise causing trouble on his private property you would be prosecuted, sued , or otherwise dealt with........but because the govt. is the govt. they can get away with it. Now what the heck does damming up a river have to with this topic ? How does that compare with introducing long ranging predators into a couple of states ; predators the gov't KNEW would never stay in the Park or wilderness areas ? Or even stay on govt. lands ? And with all due respect to your uncle , I've heard the same thing from alot of oldtimers......."you young pups just got it too easy"...... well todays rancher has a different set of problems to deal with than they did in the Fifties , but nontheless difficult. Iv'e got a hunch your uncle would take his set of problems over todays' troubles, and I'll bet he didn't have big brother looking over his shoulder telling him not to get too rough with those predators. | |||
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Any animial cat/wolf/bear ect.. that comes onto my personal property and is destroying my cattle/dog ect.., i should beable to kill it with any means i see fit... I would have no problem at all doing so under those conditions and in fact i already have. It's no secret, as i'm not ashamed of doing it... To reintroduce the wolves was insane, and it's too bad the townies got that one over on us!! DM | |||
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NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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Regarding reintroducing wolves to places like Iowa: That's kinda silly. With the number of people there, the amount of traffic, etc., they wouldn't last two seasons, I bet. Heck, I live in a state with the largest wilderness east of the Mississippi and they can't even reintroduce lynx. Why they'd want to is beyond me, of course. But they tried. They lynx kept getting smackered by cars as they crossed roads. | |||
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'tis not a foregone conclusion in my opinion, but we won't need to reintroduce them. They shall introduce themselves shortly. Whether they can make it is anyone's guess. But there are plenty of groceries, so I'm pulling for them. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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Sorry guys, but I'm very familiar with hunting BLM land in Wyoming and the topography there. Yes it takes more acres to check cattle in Wyoming, they can also be pretty darn hard to find in our bruch choked ditches as well. I don't know how I became a villain in this wolf debate as I hate the damn things. Several years ago, they ruined some previously good hunting areas in the Church and Selway in Idaho for elk hunting. Get this guys- I don't like wolves, I have posted about them ruining western hunting many times. I just said that there are more wolf kills reported than are real, hell here in Mo., I have someone telling me every other day that a mountain lion killed one of their calves, but on our place, they die from scours, at birth, not from lions. I sure as hell don't like wolf reintroduction, and there is no one on this board more in tune with cattlemen. Hopefully that cleared up some air. For those who think raising cattle is easy and profitable, go give it a try, nobody's stopping you. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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I guess if you've never heard anything about a "count on" and "count off" you don't know shit about grazing on public land do you Snapper?
Yea, people do have that much help. Heck, a good friend of mine's owns over 100000 acres here in Wyoming, and four members of the family run the ranch and don't have any trouble working the 1800 pair they run.  He's got pastures that are 17000 acres. I guess if not having enough help is a problem, get more?
Hey IV, which family of pinnipeds are you refering to? Phocidae, Otariidae, or Odobenidae?  MG | |||
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Definetly a fan of Odobenidae although I never have been much of a Beatles fan.....  Interestingly, they (Pinnipeds) are the closest family to bears-- genetically speaking..... IV minus 300 posts from my total (for all the times I should have just kept my mouth shut......) | |||
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