David Tubb won his 10th national highpower championship this year at Camp Perry Ohio. For those of you not familiar with the course of fire it is an 80 shot match fired with any centerfire rifle and open sights only. 20 shots offhand (no sling) at 200 yards 20 minutes. Two ten shot rapid fire strings, sitting, at 200 yards, 1 minute per 10 shot string. Two ten shot rapid fire strings, prone, 300 yards, 1 minute per ten shot string. (All four 10 shot strings also include a reload sequence). Finally, 20 shots slow fire prone at 600 yards, 20 minutes. All four events allow 2 sighters before the relay begins.
The National Match is decided over the course of three individual matches over three days. Mr Tubb scored 2365 out of 2400 possible points with 121X's.
To put this into perspective for some of the BS I see posted on this board: The X ring on any National Match target is 1 MOA. (on the 200 yard offhand target its 2 MOA) The 10 Ring on all targets escept the 200 yard offhand is 2 MOA--the 200 yard offhand is 4 MOA.
This means that out of 240 shots taken Mr Tubb failed to make a sub MOA shot roughly 50% of the time. Furthermore, it can be deduced that he failed to make a 2 MOA shot at least 35 times out of 240 attempts.
Mind you, all this was accomplished at known distances, with a match rifle, a heavy shooting coat, on a perfectly round target, off a shooting mat, with a spotting scope, two sighter shots, and the time/ability to get into a practised shooting position.
The next time some blowhard starts telling you how they can make awesome sub-moa shots on game think about Mr Tubb.... It is quite possible that the boaster missed his calling. I'm betting against it.

Amen brother !!!!

Very good point. I have an extensive target shooting background and I have fired scores in slow fire only as well as anyone. Sometimes at say 200 yards with a match rifle I can hit the pin that holds the spotter numerous times in a row. But much of the time one MOA is really good.

And this is with a heavy barreled rifle that is already sighted in and with a fouled barrel. Another thing is that the loads are tested and retested.

However one can get lucky with game shooting. But the variables are much greater than target shooting. This means that it's much harder.

As to these long range game shooters. I bet you anything that they can't shoot as well as David Tubbs when someone is watching.

Aww KN:

You don't suppose there is some keyboard hunting or keyboard chronographing going on do you???

OH NO!! Say it isn't so!!!

JimF

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. It is true that David Tubbs has proven himself time and time again and has the best equipment he can use but the national highpower championship still only allows open sights. I do not disagree that there is some exagerating going on but 200 to 600 yard shots are much, much easier with a good scope, most hunters would use a scope if shots like that were likely. I wonder how any descent rifleman would fair against that score if allowed to use a 3x9x40 vari x III on his or her favorite hunting rifle?

With all due respect Heavy Varmint I disagree. We don't use "open sights" but aperture sights for both the front and the rear. With the long barrel that a match rifle has and it's great balance not to mention its weight no sporting rifle could compare.

I would have no problem shooting against any sporting rifle with my match rifle.

Since I do both match shooting and rifle hunting with scoped rifles this is my opinion.

heavy varmint,

What DonMartin says is right about aperture and ring foresight.

With this setup and the appropriate size aiming mark, and off a benchrest you will shoot right along with a scope.

An experienced range shooter from prone with a sling will also go close to equalling what you can do from a bench.

Mike

So what . You are still comparing apples to oranges . Given good conditions (little or no wind , and time to get set for the shot) a deer out to a quarter mile or so is duck soup for an accurate scoped rifle . You don't have to hit a 1 MOA X ring . The vital zone is 8 inches or larger.

I'd also wager there are numerous eastern chuck shooters and western sod dog shooters who would agree very accurate shooting can be done in the field ..........

[ 09-16-2002, 16:49: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

sdgunslinger,

The only very long shooting I have ever done where it was not just at all ranges on roos, was with a mates a 22/6mm Rem Improved with 80 grain JLKs and Sierras and that was froma benchrest.

This gun is about a 16 pound bench gun. At 800 yard hits on rabbits were about 1 in 3. On a few roos that came onto the property we were 100% hit rate.

Actually if you shoot a lot of roos you would be amazed after a couple of days at the ranges you get consistent hits. However, shooting a deer the way you do would be different as you have the one or two shots and are finished.

For targets of opportunity like roos and pigs my overall hits to shots fired has been about the same with 270, 308, 300 Win and 375. But more than likely the 270 or 300 Win might have been better for the first day of shooting.

Mike

[ 09-16-2002, 17:00: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mr Tubbs is something else he kicked butt in High-power shiloutte a few years ago also. What one wants to also consider is his ability to dope wind and light,atomshperic pressure. I recently attended a match where law enforcement tatical people with very high budget equipment got thumped by a Sharps 40-65 with irons . The Sniper mentality and tech race has no place in the hunting field.Rawhider

sdslinger,
You are making my case for me...at 400 yards an 8 inch vital zone is a 2 MOA shot. Misjudge the range by 50 yards and you are out of the margin of error partner! Not even Mr Tubb would call that shot a gimme. IF he could his scores might be a little higher wouldn't they? I can't tell you how many times a 5-10 MPH gust of wind has come up in the middle of a 300 yard rapid fire string and blown my .308 168 gr SMK into the 9 ring... But on a perfectly calm day that wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, I rarely hunt under such conditions.

Heavy Varmint,
Aperture sights are harder to learn to use than a scope and certainly in less than optimal light conditions a scope will be an aid to accurate shooting. But in the hands of a high master there is very little downside to a set of open aperture sights on a rifle in terms of accuracy. I have shot in dozens of long range 700-1,000 yard open class rifle matches where scopes are allowed and aperture sighted rifles will win the match with great regularity over scoped rifles. In fact the best shooting I have ever witnessed was done by Nancy Middleton Tompkins at Raton NM during the Rocky Mtn. Long Range Championships a few years ago. On a very windy day she put 19 of 20 shots into a 10 inch circle at 1,000 yards using aperture sights!

Rawhider,
At one of our HP matches the FBI sniper guys came out and decided they wanted to give it a shot. In the words of one of the FBI "experts"..."Show us how its done." They thought it would be a piece of cake. Of course they were horrified to learn that they had to remove their scopes from their AR15s. Then were absolutely dumbfounded when they learned that the first relay is shot offhand w/out the aid of the sling. Well, they just about crapped their pants when the first targets came up...200 yards away!!! Needless to say it went downhill from there. One guy actually hit the number board more than he hit the target. Not one finished the match and they quietly exited stage right...

Kentucky Nimrod,

I think in many ways the field shot is easier than target, assuming of course the appropriate rest. Also, for the way you shoot in America it only involves a couple of shots as opposed to a lot of shots with targets.

I think the vital area is also much bigger than you are allowing for.

My hits at extreme range are virtually all on kangaroos but a couple of blokes on LongrangeHunting told me that the deer and elk were the same in that a hit with just about anything and just about anywhere and they don't move off.

Obviously something to do with the animals being relaxed etc. I suspect these blokes shooting the deer and elk are often hitting outside the normal vital area but not saying so. But at the extreme ranges it is not mattering.

The most puzzling thing at long range is the bullet expansion. I could not count the number of kangaroos I have shot and seen shot with 308 using the 130 grain Speer Hollow Point at ranges between 350 and 500 yards. Yet according to the ballistic tables that 130 grain Hollow Point is almost down to walking pace at 500 yards, yet it sure drops them quick. As well, with small females it really knocks them about.

PS. it would be interesting for you to post up your veiws on www.longrangehunting.com because the keen blokes over there I think also enter 1000 yard benchrest matchs.

Mike

[ 09-16-2002, 18:46: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike,
1,000 yard bechrest is a different game altogether. As is 100 yard bench rest. And the folks who go out and and shoot animals at long range off a bench like lots of varmint hunters and most of the people at long range hunting. Look at the setup those people have! Has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about position shooting. Which is very similar to the kind of shooting conditions you encounter in most hunting situations. A man and a rifle with a target to hit. Standing, sitting or prone.
I've been on both prairie dog hunts and have taken tons of shots at ground hogs at 400 yards and beyond. Guess what? Sure I've killed em at those ranges. But the hit probability goes WAY down when you get over 300 yards and at 400 yards I'm less than 50% on varmints...more like 30%. Unless I've already taken a few shots at that range and I get things and conditions dialed in. Which kind of makes the case for match shooters having an easier go of it b/c they have sighters before they shoot for score and also get to fine tune their shooting and dial in the target over the course of 20 shots.

Kentucky Nimrod,

I think all those blokes are advocating shooting game from benchrest or similar.

If you are talking about shooting from improvised rests then I would agree with you completely.

One thing I think competition shootes like yourself need to get across when you talk of 10 inch groups at 1000 yards etc. with aperture sights is the aiming mark size.

Mike

Kentucky

The advent of accurate rangefinders sort of blows that arguement out of the water . Also , this area for instance is mostly laid out in quarter sections of land and it is fairly easy to judge range if you are familiar with the territory . It is also wide open and you can get in more shots if the first is off .

And yeah , a decent shot can hold 2 MOA in the field with a good position , prone with a sling , bipod , over the hood of a truck , etc.

There are significant differences in most shooting disciplines and each presents it's own challenges.
In fullbore shooting the x-ring is, as mentioned, 1 moa. It is a difficult target at long range with any type of sights and especially when the number of shots required is considered. The use of iron sights does make precise aiming possible but shooter technique must be much better than with a scope because a minor shift in aim is not as easily or as quickly seen as with a scope. Also, with a scope it is possible to watch shifting mirage while in shooting position which is quite impossible with iron sights.
Even when the range is known, it is quite likely that the first sighter will be high or low by as much as 1 moa due to unknown variables in atmospheric conditions. The top fullbore shooters hold well enough and are certain enough of their shot that this sighter is meaningful and adjustments can be made from it.
Long range varmint shooters become quite good at estimating wind and mirage etc. but they do have a tendency to discount the misses! This is probably the biggest difference. In match shooting the miss is there for all to see and can't be discounted.
I have shot a bit of "F" class which is essentially unlimited fullbore from a rest (prone). Scopes are used. In this, 1moa is regularly achieved and surpassed. I have shot clean only once (at 800M)achieving a well centered 15 shot group of about 5 or 6inches. This time my first sighter was a "V" as were all the shots which followed. It is just as likely though that my first shot would be a 5 or even a 4 (here the bull is worth 5 and is 2moa)which is why I don't try and shoot big game at long ranges. I know it entirely possible that I would make a wounding shot and the game deserves better.
In short range BR competition only Hunter class requires that a shot hit center but at 100yd the "X" ring is a small dot. In hunter class a 308 that regularly shoots 3/8 moa is theoretically capable of shooting a possible if the shooter makes zero error in judging conditions. What would be a winning combination at fullbore or even "F" class would win you mostly sympathy in Hunter. Wind judging capability of the shooter has to be within 1/8moa. Short range BR shooters will be found to be quite intolerant of stories of varmint rifles and shooters that always shoot at the 1/4 moa level. They are intolerant this way just because they know perfectly well that it isn't so!
I have, over the years, developed the technique of smiling and nodding at stories of shots that I feel are largely BS, and appreciating accounts of accomplishments that I know are true and which I doubt I could equal on my best days. These include accomplishments of BR shooters, fullbore shooters and hunters.
Make no mistake though, there are no hunters that are going to come out and beat David Tubbs at his game or Tony Boyer at his. Regards, Bill.

I like to stand around the local gun counter when I'm out and about posting my match programs. Invariably, within 20 minutes someone will saunter up and loudly announce that they killed an elk last year at "a thousand yards". Why is it always 1000? Dunno.

I usually walk over and hand him a program for my next long range prone or Palma and tell him he can shoot my match for free if he'll bring his hunting rig, you know, the one you killed that elk with! Say, how much holdover and wind did you allow with your hundred yard zero, anyway...?

The whole spectacle has the counter clerks wetting themselves snickering and strangely I've NEVER had even a single man take me up on my offer. The F Class has been a learning experience for many of the local uniformed guys too but some have enjoyed the education so much they've taken up highpower on their own.

Cheers

Redial

After 9 1/2 years in the Army ending as an Infantry officer this discussion drives me crazy. Yes almost everyone who claims they can shoot is full of crap. But, (its a big butt) a better than average shooter with a decent rifle, like the M24 (rem 700 in 308 win) and an M3 (10x luepold w/ mil dot retical and target knobs) scope and some training can easily drill body targets (40 inches x 20 inches) all day long to about 600 meters. Beyond 600 meters the shooter needs to have a clue. I know that is a way bigger target than 1moa, but to about 400-500 yards most the soldiers can call which eye ball or nut they are shooting at, and get it right.
I guess the bottem line is even though there is a ton of BS out there a few, very few guys that can just out right shoot. Athough not even dreaming of shooting like Tubbs who is a legend.

1894

Your quote is out of context. It was about when the animals are at extreme range.

Mike

Tubb or Boyer rate GURU status,would truly be a great treat for me,to meet either of the gents. Inspirations both.

Now to swattin' critters. I fully agree that there is much more said than done,on that topic.

I'd simply add that I think Tubb's score would have been better,with an even higher X count,had he been given the opportunity to employ both a field rest and optics. Higher yet,if given the opportunity to pass on a shot,due to not liking the conditions presented.

Meaning,the best would become even better,given those opportunities,and Hunter is privvy to those advantages(or should be). I don't know anyone who would subscribe to the theory that shooting Game at unknown distances,with open sights,from the offhand,is the best approach to anything.

On the contrary,a man who is dedicated in the pursuit of the rifle,has good tackle,reliable means of exact range determination,a sound field rest(or better)and can read conditions,coupled with an ample dose of common sense,will make the mechanics of punchin' tags a boringly regular occurence,even at distances some would consider "long".

Slobs are slobs and I'm not siding with that faction. Though I am convinced,that hidden amongst the masses,there are some gifted,knowledgeable and dedicated gents,who get by with a rifle rather nicely..............

Kentuky Nimrod

This is from your first post in this thread.

"Mr Tubb scored 2365 out of 2400 possible points with 121X's. ..... This means that out of 240 shots taken Mr Tubb failed to make a sub MOA shot roughly 50% of the time. Furthermore, it can be deduced that he failed to make a 2 MOA shot at least 35 times out of 240 attempts."

There is a bit of a flaw here. He dropped 35 points from a "possible" and you are assuming he shot "9"s with those rounds. He could have shot a few "7"s or "8"s and a few extra "10"s. For example, he could have shot 11 "7"s and 1 "8" and had 107 "10"s and 121 "X"s. This scenario provides only 1/3 of the misses you suggest. Sorry, it's just the way I view things and I'm trying to help the guy out (as if he needs it) .

The long range hunting vs long range target shooting comparison comes up a lot and as Big Stick, Mike 375 and others may have pointed out it's not a very realistic comparison.

It just so happens that there are a few folks shooting in a little test of this system. The rules are posted on this site and others and also on my web page.

http://www.the-king-family.com/UserPages/DaveKing/PostalshootRULES.html

I invite anyone to give it a go, it's easy and educational. It only cost a few rounds, some paper and a little time.


Taking snipers to a highpower match and comparing them to highpower shooters is not very realistic either. They operate is a different environment and most are specialized for that environment. It's be about the same as a highpower shooter going to a sniper tactical match cold without and preparation or forewarning. In either case, there'd be a lot of snickering going on.

From sdgunslingeer's post:

"Given good conditions (little or no wind , and time to get set for the shot) a deer out to a quarter mile or so is duck soup for an accurate scoped rifle . You don't have to hit a 1 MOA X ring . The vital zone is 8 inches or larger."

From a long range hunter's perspective, sdgunslinger is entirely correct, 440 yards on a deer is a chip shot.

This situation has always troubled me. I am so glad I never read a line of that MatchKing thread but now it's coming back.

The difference is that we are talking about long shots at living creatures. That's what troubles me. Human reaction time is about 2/5 of a second and the time of flight added to that comes to about a second. If a animal just begins to step away at that time one second at 5 mph which is not fast at all for "deer" then it will go about seven feet before your bullet gets to the wrong place.

I have seen deer turn so fast that you wonder where it is next and that's at 70 yards.

This is called hunting ethics and is my opinion.

I have been sceptical of long range shots on game for a long time. I posted earlier on another thread that in 40 years of hunting, I have shot exactally two deer long range and that was when I young and foolish. I can and do shoot sub MOA rifles. If it won;t do that, I won't have it. But shooting off a bench and shooting under field conditions are two different animals. Recently I purchased a laser level to help me lay out an extension for my driveway. It has magnets on the underside. On impulse, I stuck it to the bottom of one of my rifles, stepped out on my back patio, which is also my shooting range, turned to laser on and looked to see what would happen. Off hand, at a hundred yards, I was barely able to hold it on my target holder, which is an old 4 foot high dog house turned on its backside. It was an eye opener. Things improved when I took a rest.

David,
While I fully agree with your assertions regarding Mr Tubb's shooting scores in terms of possibility. My experience on the HP range with competitors of that skill in that level of competition tells me that its highly improbable.

Regarding "snipers" and long range target shooting. Couldn't disagree more. Its a rifle, a target and a gun. Witness the several National Match and Palma championships won by the likes of Carlos Hathcock...

All I've seen so far are gross rationalizations of my original post. A scope makes a big difference. A field rest makes it easier... All you are need to hit is an 8 inch target.... Anyone who has ever competed beyond expert level in a HP rifle match knows what complete drivel all that is in terms of making a comparison.

A scope affords NO particualr advantage over iron sights on a target range with a competant shooter and a nice round target. In the game field perhaps. Bad eyes? Absolutely! But my example is of the National HP rifle champion and the best conditions/equipment available. Yet somehow some of you feel you can do better with a field rest and a scope under less than perfect field conditions. Anyone who has ever slipped into a prone position during a rifle match with a good sling, jacket, and shooting mat can tell you how utterly stable that platform is. Yet somehow and improvised field shooting rest is better? I've been there done that and know better.
Scopes and mirage...go to a HP match. They have range flags AND 20x + spotting scopes. Can the wind shift during the course of a shot? Sure... A good shooter will know when that happens. In slow fire you can hold your shot until conditions change or make windage adjustments. I rapid fire you have to shoot but I've been caught in gusts during the rapid string and held a little left or right. Made adjustments during the reload and continued on to shoot a clean. How many hunters that should be concentrating and focused on cross hairs will notice mirage the instant the shot breaks???

C'mon guys. Keep telling me you can shoot better under field conditions than the National HP rifle champ at Camp Perry using match equipment under match conditions... After all, at 600 yards he only has to hit a 12 inch circle to shoot a clean or perfect score and you guys claim an 8 inch target with regularity. Especially interesting when you start to consider that on a MOA basis his target essentially stays the same as range increases and your living target actually shrinks.

440 yards a chip shot on a deer? Ask any hunting professional guide if he feels that way and wait for his laughter to stop.

Mike,
[QUOTE] but a couple of blokes on LongrangeHunting told me that the deer and elk were the same in that a hit with just about anything and just about anywhere and they don't move off. [QUOTE]

So, you hit a deer in the rear haunch at say 750 yards with your .338Win Mag, and it just lies down and stays there? Really?

So be apply reverse logic all the animals which move off "normally" after the shot are not wounded???

Don't you think the "you can hit a deer just about anyware and it will go down"
is a suspect statement?

Pete

Kentucky Nimrod

I agree, it's highly improbable that he's shoot sevens, but it is possible. I was mearly pointing out that your deduction had room for a little hole in it.

Snipers are not all equal, some do shoot high power and some don't. Some sniper train for close distance shots, some for further. There isn't a direct comparison between a sniper and a high power shooter. Take your match rifle to a sniper shoot and give it a try.

"But my example is of the National HP rifle champion and the best conditions/equipment available. Yet somehow some of you feel you can do better with a field rest and a scope under less than perfect field conditions. Anyone who has ever slipped into a prone position during a rifle match with a good sling, jacket, and shooting mat can tell you how utterly stable that platform is. Yet somehow and improvised field shooting rest is better? I've been there done that and know better."

You assume that a HP shooter is using the best equipment possible and shooting in the best conditions. I disagree with the premise that a HP shooter has better equipment than some hunters and also that conditions are better on a range than in the field. A target shooter MUST shoot within the specified time, a hunter has no such time limit and can shoot whenever the conditions are acceptable.
You are the one suggesting improvised field positions and rests. Some hunters use a 3 point rest when shooting, bipod front and rear sandbag/support.

Are you a hunter? Do you use the skills you have developed at HP shooting in the field? Do you notice the wind when you shoot while hunting? I'd guess you do to some extent and if you do why can't others? It's a mistake to assume all hunting shots are a poke and hope proposition.


It seems you're quite enamoured by Mr Tubbs and other HP shooters and I'll agree some are very good shooters. What you must realize is that there are shooters NOT shooting HP that are very goods also.

Reasoning errors:

Some people have no interest in shooting HP so therefore they have no interest in shooting precision rifles. This is not correct.

David Tubbs is the best HP shooter so therefore he's the best rifle shooter in hunting condition.
This is also not correct.

Professional hunting guide know all about hunting and shooting. This is not correct.

I restate, 440 yards on a deer is a chip shot.

Some professional guides won't let hunters shoot this far and for good reasons sometimes.

Some professional guides will let hunters shoot this far and for good reasons. I don't hunt with a guide that limits my shooting based on his estimation of my capabilities, I show him and then we go hunting.

I too have shot HP matches, many years ago. I only shot for a short while but quickly lost interest as it's not very realistic in the hunting arena.

It's possible that a Mr. King is just as sharp as some of the good target shots. Why not? So long shots that hit the right spot are quite possible much of the time. But not all of the time for just one of the variables that I mentioned.

So it comes down to one person shooting paper targets really well and a few other posters here who are unethical bragging about a good shot that they made. Thus this long range shooting (it's not hunting) of live "targets" is nothing to be proud of.

I could do it Mr. King but I choose not to. So I suggest that you just keep it to yourself. That way you will not spread a bad habit.

Throughout this thread I've found proposals from all camps that I think are very important. It's all very interesting to me, having spent much time in each (hunter, sniper -green AND blue uniforms- and highpower) community.

I've encountered good shooters in each setting and many, many blowhards. Hunting ethics are a big consideration to me. The 8-ring on an elk is usually called "gut shot". No matter how many rounds I've fired at extreme range at paper, I cannot afford the slightest error on an animal, so I limit my shots to those of high certainty.

I would agree too that it IS apples and apples. The accomplished rifleman typically does well in all tests, no matter the venue. The really good shots are not specialists. Examples abound.

Most of the better schools advocate "cross training" of sorts, which I think is a great idea. Try the other guy's game firsthand and if nothing else, you'll have a far better understanding of what goes into it. You may even win! It has happened.

Redial

Pete,

I have never shot a deer but have shot and seen shot kangaroos in the thousands.

Basically, they have been shot at 3 ranges. Short range in the spotlight, 150 to 350 yards by daytime and say about 600 yards and out by daytime. By daytime it just seems to be that way.

The roos most likely to take off after being hit are the ones at the 200 to 300 yards range. The reason is simple. In the spotlight all shots will tend to be from the head down to the tops of the shoulder neck region. Straight down stuff. By daytime and at ranges of 200 to 300 yards the placement is not so good.

Once at 600 yards and more placement can be anywhere but they don't run off. They almost seem to be in some sort of daze or dream land. A mate of mine has been to Africa 4 times for plains game and he said the PH told him that the antelope over there were the same when hit at extreme range.

I can't recall having seen a roo shot at extreme range that has run off.

We are shooting off a setup on the vehichle that is close enough to benchrest that there is not much difference. I don't know what the hit rate or "hits to shots fired" is as the shooting is all mixed up because you are dealing with targets of opportunity.

But one thing is for sure, when they are out at extreme range you have all day to get set and shoot them. You don't have that situation so often at 200 or 300 yards. Late afternoon and they just stand there looking into the sun. It is very common to fire and miss and they don't move off. It also common to have a few together and drop one and the others just stand there oblivious to what has happened.

What you hit them with does not seem to matter. For example, when bullets are a bit hard roos hit low in the chest at 200 or 300 yards will often have a large exit but hop off in a great rush and for quite some distance. No so with the same bullets when you hit them at extreme range.

DonMartin29 mentions about the animal having time to move off just after the shot has been fired. I can only speak of roos and with them it does not happen at extreme range. Up closer at 200 or 300 yards is when that will happen.

It should also be remembered if someone was shooting 180s in a 308 or 30/06 at your deer at 300 yards, the deer would have enough time to move far enough so that the "vital zone" is missed and I think that would be more likely to happen than with the deer out at 1000 yards.

Another point worth considering. Those who would argue against long range shooting should remember that all their arguments (ethics??) also apply to a degree to 300 yard shots.

I don't know how much of shooting roos at extreme range is transferrable to deer, but I suspect a fair bit would. Whether the dead flat country has any influence, I am thinking about gun noise, I don't know.

I mentioned above about using a bench gun in 22/6mm Rem Improved with 80 grain Sierra and JLKs and was giving a 1 in 3 ratio on rabbits out 800 yard or so. Unlike these blokes shooting the deer and Elk at extreme range we did not know the exact range of the rabbits. What we had was markers all over the property at different ranges. In other words rabbits might have been a bit closer or a bit further out than a given marker. We did shoot a few roos that would sometimes come onto the property and that was 100% hit rate. It was only a few roos because this property is a smaller one that is not out in our real flat outback wheat country.

But based on what I have done, I would think with the gear these other blokes are using where they know the exact range and the animals are big, I would expect their hit rate to be far higher than a shooter trying a deer at 200 or 300 yards from an improvised field rest.

Mike

[ 09-19-2002, 21:32: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

I'm 40. Have been competing in some form of formal rifle discipline since I was 14 years old. My senior year in HS I placed 2d in the State smallbore championship. I am a Master Class HP rifle shot. Have won two state titles in my class and placed very well in some regional matches. I've hunted big game animals on three continents. Have somewhere around 60+ animals to my credit ranging in size from Roe deer to Elk. The vast majority though are Whitetail Deer and Russian Boar.
I ALWAYS can learn something from fellow shooters and there is ALWAYS a better shot than me out there... But my limited experience has taught me a thing or two about the art of riflery. When people make huge leaps from what the VERY best shots in the various disciplines can do on the competitive rifle ranges of the world (forget HP, you pick the discipline!) and tell me that they can regularly best those shots on game in the field then you'll have to excuse me if I exhibit a wee bit of skepticism!
I'm a pretty good shot. In fact way above average if you simply rate me relative to the competition that will show up at any given match. But the best shots like Tubb or Mid. Tompkins or Mitchell Maxberry are simply machines. They leave me in the dust. What's more these guys frequently compete in several disciplines and guess what...they tend to be top shooters in those others areas as well.
A man, a target and a rifle...the equation is the same regardless if you are hunting roos in the outback or punching paper at 300 yards. The mastery of basics and fundamentals apply in any situation and in my estimation account for 95% of the skill demonstrated by anyone handling a rifle. And anyone who claims a 440 yard shot on deer is a chip shot is not much different than a golfer who claims that a 320 yard teeshot is easily within the grasp of any golfer. The best in the business prove otherwise more often than not on a regular basis. You might be a better shot than those people... No really, you might! I don't know. But to suggest that its an easy task? A chip shot? Not in my experience...limited though it is...

Kentucky Nimrod

With a bench setup and the right rifle setup I would have to agree with the blokes who say the deer at a known 440 yards is a chip shot. Unknown range and improvised rest then it is no chip shot.

Let me ask you, what size 3 shot group would expect to get at 440 yards with a bench style gun?

Mike

From a good, solid concrete bench, with a fairly competitive load (by benchest standards...say an honest .25 MOA load...certainly not world record setting standards but on any given day at any given BR match it could win) with no wind (rarely present condition in either hunting or competitive circles). With an 18 lb bench gun (who lugs that afield?) With a very good bench rest shooter behind the trigger (lets say in the top quartile), with a perfect benchest target, no mirage, and a 32X fixed scope I will say that you could produce groups slightly larger than 1" perhaps 1.5" under those conditions. Smaller groups would be possible but more an exception than a rule. Change one variable just a little...maybe 2.5 inches would be average. Throw in something wacky like a 10 MPH gusting wind and you could easily open that up to say 7" groups. Would that be a chip shot on a deer? Close. Who but a very very select few hunts this way, exclusively under these conditions, with such remarkable equipment and cooperative targets? Even here you are talking extreme examples which have very little to do with people of even better than average abiliety! What does that have to do with reality and the VAST majority of hunters?

Kentucky Nimrod

But the blokes advocating the long range shooting are also advocating such rifles and not improvised field rests.

With a 270 in Heavy Varmint bench style with Jewell trigger and sandbags under forend and butt, a kangaroo is a hit at long range.

Switch to a 270 with sporting rifle configuration and say a single point rest, then it is no longer a chip shot even though the rifle itself has the accuracy.

With wind and mirage, you are also ignoring the fact that in competition you have shoot in those conditions.

Competition also involves fatigue and pressure.

As an example, with the right aiming mark I can shoot into .3" OK with a 6X at 100 yards. But I could not hold the average over 5 5 shot groups in a competition.

You said who lugs an 18 pound gun into the field with big scope. Well that is what those blokes do.

Mike

Does that mean everyone in the Varmint Hunter's Association 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000 yard clubs are liars?

Kentucky,

You made general statements concerning the ability of maybe exceptional shooters who, may make long shots. I have no reason to doubt or debate them. From a bipod I can regularly hit the 385 Meter turkeys and the 500 Meter Rams at our silloutte range. Not saying I can do it off-hand or with out a rest or bipod but with that equipment I can and regularly do it. Feel free to say I am crazy or full of it or whatever, but I see people at the silloutte club do it off-handed all the time. I can't, but from a bipod, which is normal hunting conditions for me, a 385 meter shot on a turkey is pretty easy. A 500 meter ram shot is about 90%. I do this everytime I go to the range so I can practice for hunting season. I am nowhere near as adept at the long range game as Mr. King, or Mr. Cassell, etc. who are regular 1000 yard competitors, who do take a bench, benchrest, 18lb gun etc. to hunt with. These gentlemen are the exception to the rule.

I don't normally get involved in these flaming posts so take this FWIW.

Jim

Hmmmmm, as I've been reading Kentucky Nimrod's post's I've come to two conclusions. One I'm sure glad I didn't read his post's before I shot this 3 1/2", 3 shot group at 680 yards in a variable crosswind of 18 to 20 mph. (I might of missed the whole target.) Notice it's not a bench rest rifle either, just a Model 70 in .308Win. with a heavy barrel. Didn't even use a bench rest just laid down and shot prone off a Harris bi-pod. Two, I must be some kind of god! Not. Remember just because "you" can't do it doesn't mean others can't.


[ 09-20-2002, 00:37: Message edited by: Big Sky ]

Big Sky,

Can you e-mail me, and let me know how you built that gong. I've been wanting one. It's a pain in the ass to drive down and set the sillouttes up again. How thick is the steel? Where did you get it? How tall did you make it? How big is the piece of steel? Is it pretty sturdy (sure looks like it)? Sorry about all the questions, but I never thought of building the gong that way.

Thanks,

Jim

FWIW, when running the outdoor field simulators in the rifle class at Gunsite, the standard to which we were held was a first round kill zone hit from whatever position you choose on a target at unknown range within ten seconds of seeing it. The target distances ranged from about 50 yards to almost 400 yards.

I certainly admire the skill of those who can reliably hit the kill zone at distances beyond the point blank range of their rifles and loads, but I wonder at what point it stops being hunting and begins to be target shooting on living game animals? Presented for your consideration...

Nimrod and company,

What *I* don't get, is the incessant need of people who don't shoot game at long range to stir up hate and discontent w/ those who do.

Yes. I know most hunters out there are quite frankly, scary. A couple months ago, I was shooting at a new (to me) range, and asked another shooter on the line what the various yardages were. I was pretty sure they were 25, 50, 75, and 100yds, but I wanted to make sure of the furthest one, in case it was something like 100m instead, but I didn't mention that. Just asked what the yardages were. This guy proceeds to tell me that they were 100, 150, 200, and 300 yds. Yep. I bet he shoots his deer every year at 300-400yds or more

Just go back from the gunstore. Guy asked for some .280 Rem. ammo, then asked the dealer if it was a common caliber. Then asked if they had a magazine for his gun, as he had lost his. Probably, the dealer replied. What kind is it? Blank look. Remington? Browning? The guy finally just said he'd bring it in. I'm standing in the background shaking my head. After the guy left, I spoke w/ the dealer about it, and we laughed, and he mentioned last year he had a guy come in w/ a scope mounted on a rifle, and just wanted it boresighted. a) it was the day before season opener, and b) it was on backwards.

I've talked w/ people who told me they shot their deer/elk/whatever at 400yds (almost as magical as 1k). Really? I ask. What were you using? 30-06 Good caliber, I reply. How much did you hold over? Blank look. I didn't, they say. So I tell them that there is no way in hell the deer/elk/whatever was 400yds away. And proceed to don the asbestos/kevlar Under-roos!

Based on talking to people like this, I'd say that yes, a lot of people that say they got their animals at extreme ranges are full of it, simply because some basic probing reveals a fundamental lack of knowledge of what is necessary to accomplish the task. Further more, some people shouldn't even be out there taking any shot, period, from what I've seen. But there are some people who *do* have the requisite knowledge, who *do* practice, who *do* the prep time, and who *are* prepared to do what they have to do to make the shot a good one.

I wouldn't know some of these people like .338Lapua, Dave King, Boyd Heaton, or Dave Cassel from the man on the moon if I passed them on the street 5 minutes from now. I've never seen them shoot. I hightly doubt you have either. You seem to be an accomplished marksman. From what I gather, so are they, in their own discipline. I think they respect you. I also think it is time to reciprocate that, or if you can't do that, be quiet about it and quit badmouthing them when you don't know them.

And that's about the nicest I can put it.

Monte