One quick statement here. I'm not out to try and convince anyone to shoot at game beyond 400 yards. I'm just saying that hitting targets beyond 400 yards isn't that tough if you know what you are doing and have the equipment to do it with. 440 yards on a 12x12" steel target is a chip shot with this above pictured rifle, unless of course you have super strong gusting winds. Then again in really strong wind, 200 yards is tough. Boils down to knowing your own limitations, but please don't force your limitations on someone else.

I'm not going to get in a flame over this but the guys you are calling a liar are some of the best 1000yard bench rest shooters.Go to the Super Shoot in Penn. and youll see those same guys shooting around 10in or under 10 shot groups all day long.For US,and I say agian for US,a quorter mile is as easy as a 50 yard shot for most hunters.I have been hired to remove acess deer for ranches that want to start QDM manegment.The area we were at was mostly rolling fields were shots were from just over 300 to 900yards. We shot most of them,50 to 60,with a Win M 70 300win mag with just a bipod and sand sock.The longest was 930yards with the above mentioned rifle and 190gr matchking,there were 15 plus does we picked a doe that was beded,laserd the range,measured the wind,there was a 6mph right to left at our 2 o clock, and dialed the dope.Hit the left foreleg exited at the top right shoulder,exit size-about 7inches.We study the animal for quite awhile before we shoot,if its fidgity or moving around we dont shoot it.
If you do mess up and put a shot in the guts,past about 400yds they dont run off or become alerted at all.Think about it how many times have you seen a deer get shot buy an arrow and just jump then walk three or four feet and stand there until it falls.
No offense to Kentucky Nimrod but I have personaly killed several hundred deer,between myself and my shooting group we have more than a thousand kills worth of expirrrence.

Note I am not trying to convince anyone to try LR hunting,as it can take years to learn how,or impress anyone with how many living creatures I'v killed because I would not even have brung it up unless it was relavent to the conversation.BUT it can and is done by very skilled riflemen all the time.

Kentucky Nimrod


Okay, my turn.

I'm 48 and I've been shooting since before age 6. I didn't start shooting formal competitions until I was stationed at Camp Pendleton, Ca during mid 1982 through early 1984. One day in early 1983 while hunting/shooting on the base I met some folks at a little impromptu .22 rimfire silouette match, it was near the 5th Marines range. I shot with them for a while and after a bit they would no longer shoot against me but did ask me to join the Marine Corp Base Camp Pendleton Rifle team. I first needed to qualify with the M16 so that I could get a weapons card to shoot on the team (we shot bolt and M14 rifles on the rifle team). I met some very nice folks there and had some good examples and fellow shooters. I'd shoot on weekends with various shooters, mostly Art Luppino and Paul White but on ocassion Middleton Tompkins, Eric StJohn, (a woman shooter also I want to say Norma McCoullough but I don't know for sure) and other fine shooters would show (I don't mean to miss anyone it's just that I can't recall them all now). Anyway, I learned a few good habits to add to what I already knew.

I didn't compete very much at matches, I went to the SouthWest Regionals in 29 Palms where I won the 1000 yard Service Rifle match (The Onslow Memorial Trophy Match), I don't recall the score but it was sufficient to win. I also traveled to Boulder for a match and don't recall how I placed there (I didn't take first place, I do know that).

I received my HighPower Rifle Master classification on 12/12/83.

I transferred away from Camp Pendleton to a nuclear powered cruiser in early 1984 and gave up HighPower and competition shooting until 1999.

In 1999 I became interested in shooting moving targets with a rifle and attended a school that offered classes in this, I leter went to a "sniper" competion at their facility where I took first place individual. At the request of the school I joined their rifle team and traveled to Canada and shot at the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships (CFSAC) in the Precision Rifle matches. I won the 600 meter One-Shot, One-Kill match with a score of 50-7V I believe (I don't have it written down here).

I don't get a great charge out of competition shooting, I'd prefer to shoot on my own and at things I consider a personal challenge.

I've only hunted in the U.S. and Canada but have many hundreds of big game animal kills (mostly whitetail deer). I've hunted elk only once and have only ever shot at one elk, I killed the bull at 905 yards with a 300 Win Mag (I know, it's unethical!)

I have shot with some of the best there are and learned from all shooters. I am a fair shot and I've on ocassion been humbled by some very unlikely looking folks.

Hope this intro. helps some.

I stuck together a little web page:

http://www.the-king-family.com/DaveMarksmanship.html

Dave, Big Sky and the others who have responded. I truly appreciate your stated accomplishments with rifles. And if they are indeed accomplishments that you could easily go out and repeat any day of the week with no more thought than tying your shoes then I readily admit that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
For example; Big Sky's picture of a sub-moa group shot at extended range (what was that 700 yards or so?) in a 18-20 mph gusting cross wind. If that was a one time phenomenon I'm not really impressed. But if you could go out on any given day and easily replicate that group under those conditions then I can only say...that is extraordinary shooting and you would EASILY be ranked among the top 1% of all rifle shots I have ever met. That is NOT the work of your average joe, or even some of the very accomplished shots I have ever met. With that type of shooting in that wind you would handily win any Long Range open class rifle competition you cared to enter, easily set lots of records, and get all kinds of endorsements from companies like Sierra. With all sincerity...congratulations.
Unfortunately, that situation and the others mentioned have nothing to do with what I'm saying--it's not what I ever implied anywhere in my postings and I never ever challanged anyone's abiltity to shoot small groups at long range. I'm fully aware that tiny little groups have been shot and have personally witnessed such shooting...10 inch groups at 1,000 yards indeed!
My point is that such level of performance is in the stratosphere in terms of experience and capability. And that VERY VERY few people are truly capable of such performance with any regularity. ON PAPER OR GAME!!! Even the top people cannot post record scores like that with any regularity. Though they do tend to do so with more frequency than the lesser known shots.
I'm not trashing or bad mouthing long range hunters, 2000 yard benchresters or any one else. I'm simply stating a fact. And that fact is record breaking groups, 900 yard shots on elk, and yes, even 400 yard shots on deer are no simple matter and easily and well beyond the capabilities of well over 95% of all shooters and hunters. You all belie your experience and capabilities when you make such posts and I promise, if you are for real, you are quite simply the most accomplished group of marksmen I have ever known. That still has nothing to do with making sub MOA long range shots on game and suggesting its no big deal to people who frequent forums like this is. That, to me, is simply quite astounding!

Kentucky Nimrod,

With respect, I think you are continuing to make the mistake of thinking very long range game shooting is like a taregt competition. It is not like target competition because you do not have to shoot in an alloted time and for a large number of shots, all of which count.

Where I shoot, from time to time a neighbour or someone from the town has come out and these blokes are just someone with a Howa 223 or Ruger 243 or something and they have a bit of experiecne shooting across a sandbag benchrest type of rest.

I have let them have a few shots of a bench type gun in 270 to get used to the feel. They have no trouble bowling roos over at 400 yards.

As to Big Skys group, maybe he could not do it tomorrow because the wind would be all different. But since he is not in target competition he does not have to do it tomorrow.

Actually your views are quite similar to a 6mm PPC competition shooter saying a bench style 270 with a 6 X scope can't shoot a .3 for 5 shots because his 6mm PPC with 36 X Leupold only does .25" or .3". Of course if I enter the bench style 270 in a bench competition I would be doing well to average .6" or .7" and for a couple of reasons. One of those reasons being that I would HAVE to shoot the group when the wind or mirage was a factor.

Mike

Mike,

I don't know how roo's compare to deer either as I have never shot roo's.....but with regard to deer, I still take issue with the statement that it does nt matter where you hit them.
Providing the deer is undisturbed why should a deer shot with a .30-30 at 60 yards react differently to the same deer being shot at 600yards with some .30 super mag all other things being equal? What i am suggesting is the terminal velocity and bullet performace should be about equal as the .30super mag has that much more velocity in the first place?

The only difference I can see would be the noise factor. I can't really explain how noise effects deer other than to say most times, they run away! But, I have shot a Roe buck at around 30 yards with a .308 on a forrst ride. Because I neck shot it, it went down like a sack of spuds; not even a kick.... the odd thing was that a doe browsing only a few feet away simply did not react at all. OK she stopped browsing and looked up for a second or two, but then carried on feeding...I ended up shooing her away! I can recount other similar "odd" expiriences and reactions.

I have seen all sorts of reactions from deer shot in the chest...from the classic hind leg kick out followed by a short death run, to the stand and sway.....and fall over....My point really is that it does matter if you shoot a deer or elk in the rump (excluding texas heart shots & similar ) as 99% of time it will not be immediately fatal and usually the deer will move off into cover. Whether the hunter has a chance of a follow up depends on a number of factors, but far better that he had put the bullet in the front 1/3 of the beast in the first place. If he can't do that with a desgree of consistancy he is shooting at too longer range regardless of the actual measured distance involved.

Finally, for folks who shot at extended ranges on live big game such a deer or roo's, do you verify every "miss" even if it means hiking 600 yards across valley's or draws? Or do you assume every animal that moves off is unwounded?

Pete

[ 09-20-2002, 14:42: Message edited by: Pete E ]

Pete,

A few posts above, CHARLESARBUCKL, has also mentioned about deer at longer ranges in respect of gut shots.

Pete, at real longrange the animals are completely different.

An example. Sometimes at 200 or 300 yards off the improvised rest you will blow off one of the kangaroos front legs. He (or she) will hop away like there is no tomorrow. In fact you would think they will not stop until they get to England They even do this in mid summer.

But hit them anywhere at real long range and they are going nowwhere.

I did say on an earlier post that the roos that hop away are the ones you shoot at 200 and 300 yards off the improvised rest. In the spotlight the shots are all head and upper shoulder/neck ans straight down. The roos at real long range just don't go anywhere.

By the way, I am not talking about an experience that is limited to a few hundred animals. It is many 1000s and over many years of all varied components etc.

If I was some sort of animal rights activist then I would suggest that all animals to be shot should be shot in either the spotlight or at extreme range.

Spotlight because they are hit in the head or shoulder/neck and don't know what hit them and real long range becaue they don't kmow what hit them.

Same deal either way.

Here is another one for you. You can hit the roo in the gut, the leg etc at real long range and you can just drive upto him/her. He/she is not scared or excited. He/she is in dream land.

Now when you shoot them close in the spotlight and wound they are very different. A big male Red will get real savage. That is why some property owners and property workers are careful with the male Red roo.

But same animal with same shot at real long range, he is in dream land.

Again, my experience is not limited to a few hundred animals. I am also sure that there are exceptions but exceptions would also apply at all ranges.

Mike

Mike,

OK,with regards roo's, just a couple of questions then...You have knocked a corner off a roo at 600 yards and its standing there dazed... what would happen if no follow up shot was taken? Any idea how long this state remains? Providing the hunter is unseen in both cases, can you explain why a roo reacts differently to a 60yard shot with a 30-30 and 600 shot with a .30 super mag, providing the terminal balistics are similar?

For a gut shot deer at any range, a nil reaction is not uncommon. If a follow up shot is not taken then the usual conclusion is for the animal to walk slowly..sort of hunched up, a few
feet/yards into cover. Not sure what it would do on the wide open plains, but where I stalk cover is usually only a few yards away. Once in cover they tend to lie up fairly quick if they are not disturbed. Alot of folks will say they go down hill towards water, but I can't confirm that as our roe don't drink in the conventional sense.

Pete

Pete,

My feeling is that the real long range is a combination of the noise and the animal is relaxed. At closer range they look like they are ready to take off. At real long range they just sit there looking at the sun.

I also don't know whether the open flat ground effects things, but it could because of the noise. I mentioned in an earlier post about shooting a few roos with 22/6mm Rem Imp and 80 grain Sierra and JLKs. This was on undulating country. All roos (only a few, maybe 12 or so) were hit and did act similar to what I was use to.

As to the question would we follow up the roo with the front leg blown off. Depends on how much shooting there is at the time. So, sometimes "no" and sometimes "yes" However, if at closer range like 200 or 300 yards, the roo with the front leg blown off is up and away. You won't be following him unless you drive through and knock down the fences. He/she is gone, gone an gone. As to whether you can shoot again if you have blown the front leg off...the answer is "Yes" when it is at real long range. At real long range they sit there like ducks in a shooting gallery. At 200 or 300 yards if you blow the front leg off, then no, you won't shoot again because he/she is gone. By "gone" I mean if you are looking at the roo hopping away in your scope, it will go out of sight and that is a long way on the flat ground.

Hence, that is why I say the "normal range" daytime shooting is the one that is worst for the animal.

By the way, I am not trying to put forward some moral stand here, just stating it as I have seen it. For me, it is just as easy to run over the animals in the 4WD. I am not into this ethical stuff wherby it is OK if the hunt and stalk was right but the animal is wounded.

But what I am saying is that in my experience, if the moral, ethical thing was an issue, then animals should only be shot in the spotlight or extreme range. But again, I do base that on shooting roos. However, I think from what others have said, not just on this thread, the deer at real long range will be the same.

Mike

[ 09-20-2002, 16:31: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

KN,

I too read some things here and elsewhere that sometimes make me shake my head. One thing I might point out is the degree of interest of the pool of people frequenting this site. I would agree that the vast majority of hunter/shooters out there fall into that category where they can't really tell 100 yards from 400 yards, etc. I would further point out that these folks are pretty serious about what they do and aren't necessarily into spending the time/money to pursue competition shoots.

While 95% of the shooting public may fall into that category where they pull out the rifle the weekend before deer season and then go out and see if they can hit a milk jug at 100 paces, perhaps a good deal of those frequenting sites such as this comprise that remaining 5%??? In other words, the entire bell curve doesn't necessarily apply to such a small data pool.

As for me, I've shot some deer at over 400 yards but most have been much closer. Why did I take a 400 yard shot? Because it was later in the season making me less selective and I also practice a lot both with my deer rifle as well as other rifles. Every year I check my rifle/load/scope combination at a variety of distances up to 400 yards in addition to other practice. I can shoot a 5-shot 5 inch group at 400 yards repeatedly as long as I use a suitable rest. I've used my jacket over a toolbox before. My long range shots will find me resting the rifle on a round hay bail and taking my time...no time clocks, etc. In fact, even for shorter ranges I tend to try and find the best possible rest for a shot even if it's sitting on my ass with my elbows on my knees. That all works for me.

Don't underestimate the abilities of the shooting public. Some just don't have the interest or means to compete. This thread has several stories of folks that had never shot in competition and came in at some point and kicked ass. You might keep that in mind.

Reed

Well I give up you just can't educate the ignorant. You tell them you can do it, they don't believe. You show them a photo, they don't believe (it's somehow a fluke.) You send them a video and they still don't believe. As a last resort you take them out, plant their happy butt next to you and shoot to dazzle them. They walk away tails tucked and brains fried. The only trouble is who has the time to waste taking every skeptic into the field? Live in your ignorant bliss. Some folks out there realise there's more to life that sitting at a bench rest.

I think we've all heard "I'm not much on target shootin' but show me hair and I never miss" from other shooters and while it is easy to dismiss the statement as untruthful, I know some where the statement is true. These folks are hunters and woodsmen and don't really shoot a great deal. Their rifles/shotguns etc are tools and nothing else.

How do they do it? Most are blessed with excellent eyesight and eye-hand coordination past the norm...and...they don't have an ego involved in their shooting. They are what I would call "natural" shooters and if these folks get interested and get some training they can peform shooting feats that most of us only dream about.

The other side of the coin is the trained shooter who isn't very good shooting at animals...why? In my experience the simple reason is they never anticipate the shot and by the time they are ready to press the little "go" button the opportunity has past....that and the fact they want to hit an aspirin tablet at 100 yards when in reality all they need to do is hit a cantelope but they need to hit it quickly...it's all in the mind set.

I took a guy out a few week's back to hunt groundhog.I found one at 525 yard's.I put 7.8 moa on my gun and told him to shoot.He told me there was NO WAY somebody could hit a GH at that range.To make a long story short,he is now a believer.WHY,because he did it himself.I also made a one shot kill on one at 750 yard's that day.WHY,because he said I could'nt do it...

Boyd I like your style of education and motivation!

Pete E, Mike375 and all

My experience and observation on deer and other critters after being shot.

First, I believe animals react to danger when they sense danger, sounds obscure enough so far.

Let's think about ourselves for a moment and our reactions to danger and other experiences. How many folks have had a sharp jabbing pain in their chest, sudden like which then immediately disappears? I get them every once in a while, a little muscle twinge from some exercise or one of those phantom "gotcha" things. Ever get a "charlie horse" in your leg or arm? Been stung by a bee or bitten by a horse fly?

Those little chest pains we get, they don't cause us to run away somewhere or flop about madly on the ground, why not? They're not dangerous and we know it.

Those "charlie horse" things, same effect, we beat them or wait them out, we don't run away.

Bee sting... another matter altogether. If it's one bee and we can immediately verify that by the single crunch under our palm we "ouch, slap, and cuss" and then go about examining the thing to fix it if we can. On the other hand, if there are LOTS of bees we haul ass in a crazy arms flailing, hands slapping, head shaking frenzy. Why the different reactions, one bee is no danger, crunch, dead, scratch and we're done, the other is danger and we flee the perceived danger.

We also don't run away from thunder, or horn honking or other loud noises that are not known to be danger, but let a gunshot resonate off our house in the middle of the night and we're ready to fight or flight. How about a loud unknown noise when we're with a large group of people? How do we react? We look around and if nobody is too excited or running away we often assume "not a problem".

DEER:

Deer, this is what I know and have directly observed. I've killed far more than 400 deer with all types of things, knife, bow, shotgun (slugs, buckshot and #6 shot), and rifles of various chamberings. In a nutshell, if the deer sense danger they'll run/leave, distance from the hunter/shooter will change this somewhat.
Deer have a society/structure and leaders, if the leader senses no danger or does not telegraph danger to the rest of the deer the group probably won't run away.
Deer will run away from danger, whether real or perceived and if the object of this danger follows they will continue to run away.
Deer are curious, they will advance on an object they don't understand and do not sense as immediately dangerous.

Observations after they (deer) have been shot.

I have shot more that a few deer with an arrow that went pass-through chest and stuck into the ground on the far side. Probably about 30% or so don't notice my position after the shot and don't immediately run away. The ones that don't run off will generally only jump and move off a short distance (5 yards or so) and stop. They look about for the source of the problem in some instances and other times they will begin licking the wound(s). Often they begin to stagger and "moon-walk" or do the "spiral of death" and hit the ground. Some just walk to a tree or log and lay down and curl up to "sleep it off". If there are other deer present and I continue to go un-noticed I can shoot another as the rest of the deer don't sense danger either.

But, let that arrow not pass through the deer and have the fletching visible to the deer and there's a whole different ball game. They'll run, and I believe they'll run until they're dead, the arrow breaks off or they're completely exhausted. I've had deer get shot with an arrow then turn to look at the problem and see that arrow, their eyes go huge with fear and they RUN and as long as that arrow continues to chase them they will flee.

Shooting deer with a gun is pretty much the same as archery as far as the run away part. If they don't perceive danger they have no need to run. I've shot deer through the chest at close range when not visible to them and they do the same as lung shot deer in archery, some leave other stay and flop over.

I've also shot deer that were in a herd, shot the lead doe in the head or anywhere else that'll put her dead on the ground immediately and the other deer will not leave. They either go about their business of eating or standing about if I'm quiet and unseen, or if they find me they must have an "election" and leave the area once a new leader is elected (this is not always the case but does happen a fair percentage of the time). If I need to shoot more deer out of the herd I can do so while they have no leadership, they wont leave the area immediately. I've shot multiple deer on many ocassions using this technique.

Long Range is about the same as shorter range but the deer have far less chance of detecting the hunter. Shoot them through the lungs and to them (my belief) it's just one more of those annoying "chest pains" that'll pass in a few seconds, they wait it out and die in place. They don't run off and therefore don't telegraph danger to the rest of the herd so the herd goes about it's usual business.

I don't believe deer kow what a gun is, and they don't know what gunfire is, many of us have seen deer stand calmly while gunshots echo close by. Deer calmly walk across rifle ranges while people are shooting targets.

They have no concept of being shot, it's outside their realm of experience. I also don't believe thay can formulate a plan of action in case they are shot. They do have a plan for what to do in the event of danger but a pain somewhere on their body is not immediately classified as danger, there generally must be some external stimulus before they flee.

Why do deer "bawl" sometimes? I wondered this for a long while, every once in a while I'd shoot a deer and it'd bawl and bellow. The one day I was out shooting groundhogs on a place I shoot crop damage deer and I found a fawn in the field. I picked the fawn up, it was calm for a while but then went into the "bawl" mode. I put it down and it stopped bawling, pick it up and "bawl". Later on a deer hunt with another fella I went to retrieve one of his deer, the deer wasn't quite ready to be retrieved and as I grabbed it by the antlers (a small buck) it stood up. Well...I didn't want to loose the guys deer and wasn't sure what it'd do so I held on to the antlers and we had a little tug-o-war. About 10 seconds into this tussle the buck began to bawl and a few second after that I killed it with my knife. This is when I got to thinking about those bawling deer, I though it was that they were in pain but I now believe it's a response to being unable to "run away". Most of the deer I've shot that bawled we're spined and obviously couldn't run, others were just too "tired" to be able to move any more.

Pete E asked if we (LRH) always check our quarry after a shot. I can only speak for myself but believe others are much like me. When I shoot at an animal I fully expect to kill it, when I pess the trigger I firmly believe that the critter is going to be hit by the bullet. I always check, I'm going out there where it was anyway because I need to pick it up.

Talk about apples to oranges....

Like others have said, when hunting you don't have to shoot. If the conditions aren't right you can come back another day without disgracing yourself by missing when you didn't feel right about the shot. You don't have that luxury in a match.

And for an even more rediculous part of the comparison....

"Yeah, last time out deer hunting it was really hard. I was told I had to shoot this deer right now even though it was really windy from a certain position even though there was a nice rest nearby. I was told I didn't just need to hit the vital zone, but I needed to hit the very center of it. Not only that, but at my first shot a guy next to me beeped his stopwatch and said I needed to hit the very center of the vital zone 9 more times. And I only had one minute! If I miss just once the deer will get up and run away. Shit! This deer hunting stuff is hard!



As for how animals react at long range, I've only experienced it once but I think it's pretty obvious.

Game animals hear shooting in the distance all the time. It doesn't scare them. From a couple hundred yards away, it's loud enough and happens right after a bullet whizzes by or they feel pain that it's clear to them they need to get the hell out of Dodge. Sound intensity is inversly proportional with the square of the distance. Shoot from twice as far and the shot sounds 1/4 as loud.

When shot from way off, the shot is so muffled it simply sounds like the "background noise" of hunters shooting off somewhere in the distance. Since they don't hear it until a couple of seconds after they feel pain, they don't associate the two. They feel the pain, look around and don't see anything that seems out of place so they literally don't know what hit them. THEN they hear a quiet shot from somewhere very far away. They have no reason to put the two together.

[ 09-22-2002, 08:01: Message edited by: Jon A ]

David King,

You make some excellent points, and it's obvious to me from your words that you've had the experiences to back up your words (novel idea, huh?)

Excellent post. I read it twice and liked it both times.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Boyd,
OK, help educate me. A 750 yard shot on a groundhog. Say out of ten times you are offered such a shot. What do you think (or perhaps actually know) the number of time you would expect to hit that target? I've shot lots of groundhogs...lots. Did you hit him as he was standing up on his hind legs or crawling/standing on all fours. They rarely stand up and present themselves for more than a few seconds. So did you time the shot?
Mind you, I do not doubt you made that shot. I'm only trying to understand your true ability with a rifle. That's not because I don't believe people can hit animals at long range. But I really have a hard time understanding how you could make that 750 yard ground hog shot say 9 times out of 10. Not that you ever claimed that. But consistent ability is what I'm interested in. Not isolated examples. The law of averages says that if even the poorest of marksman throws enough lead downrange sooner or later he'll hit something. (Again, I'm not insinuating that's who you are or what you do.) I am only sincerely interested in what you can do with a rifle at long range on a consistent basis.

Big Sky,
Same as above. I believe your pic. I believe you did it in the conditions you stated. Here's the rub. What do you think that group would look like if the shot count was increased to say 10 shots? Could we got out tomorrow and could you with a good degree of certainty repeat such performance? If it was fairly average and common, why would you take a picture? If that was fairly average shooting what's your best look like? If it was an example of your best shooting, what would be a better example of your typical capability?
A 680 yard shot in 20 mph gusting winds into 3.5 inches demonstrates phenominal ability to dope wind. I've seen too many absolutely superb long range shots blown 9 or 10 inches from shot to shot under such conditions. So how did you learn to shoot that well in the wind?
As I've stated all along: there are always better shots and I can always learn something. So here's your opportunity...