Oldgun: Appreciate the support, I'll take it anytime. Regading M-16's comment of " I just aim for that little white spot on the neck" is exactly my point. While that is indeed a sure-fire recipe for a quick kill, the envelope is way too small for my taste and so is that caliber. With a bigger caliber say an 06' and a tougher bullet like a Hornady, I can also aim for the "little white spot" or the shoulder, or the heart/lungs or even a Texas Heart Shot and I'll still kill the deer. My point being, why limit my kill zone with small frangible bullets and small calibers when a bigger caliber and tougher bullet drmatically increases my chances. I closing, BTs are FINE for deer, one just has to be cognizant when shooting at high MVs and close distances. jorge

Guy's I asked about whether 140 nosler BT's in a 280 Ackley that are extremely accurate would do the job properly at high velocity on Mule Deer sized game at given ranges. I do not want an advertisement for Partitions and others. I agree with all that a tougher bullet would be a better choice but I do not have the time to redevelop a load for this gun because of my work schedule. A 280 I had once would shoot 150 grain partitions excellently and it did the greatest job on all sorts of angles and points of impacts with small whitetails. I have a decent load started with the 150's in my ackley as well but won't have time to finish it. I travel with my job and my weekends are jammed with the 2 boy's I have so its hard to do the proper range work needed to get a load ready for the field. Maybe I'm being too particular but you owe it to the game you hunt to bring the best you can to the field. I do appreciate your feelings and responses and I don't mean to sound negative. For those who comented about their experiences with BT's good or bad, thanks.

I have killed well over 100 deer in the south with most in the 50 yard range maybe 6 have been killed with bal tips but I will never use them again. 1. I had a 140 gr 7x57 @ 2750 fps crater in a 300+ pound hog 2. I had a 165 30'06 @ 2800 fps pencil on a 140# deer so I simply don't use them.

Most of my deer have been killed with 180 round noses in a 30'06

Tom, Thats exactly the kind of info I need. Practical exeperience over preference. Thanks a lot.

Snider700,

If you would feel Confident in a 140 Hornady SP, 140 Speer Hot Core, 140 Win PP, etc. etc...., You should feel even more so confident in the 140 NBT for several reasons. For one, it's probably going to out shoot the other accuracy wise which is always a confidence builder and for another, it will hold up just as well and even better in many instances than the other plain jain bullets.

Maybe this will help: We shot a hardwood tree of about 5"+ in Dia. w/ a 140NBT at 3300+ fps out of a 270 WBY MAG and it blew a huge hole through the tree

Just the other day I shot a cardboard box target at 120 yards w/ a friends 30-06 and some 180 NBTs I had loaded for him. When we went to check for the impact, I noticed the brush behind the target, that bullet went through the box, some small twigs, a tree limb, and then hit a Hard wood tree trunk about the size of a 2 liter coke bottle in Dia. That bullet fully penetrated that tree and left about a nickle sized exit and kept right on going into the brush thicket. Tell me that wouldn't penetrate!

A few of us were standing around BSing at a camp down in Southeast TX several years ago and we deicided to shoot our rifles. I had some 150 NBTs for my 7RM at 3100+ fps and I shot a hard wood tree about 50 yards away that was probably 6" in dia, the bullet went slap through that tree and left another one of those Nickel sized holes in the backside. That's just a few of the examples I can rember about the penetration issues w/ NBTs. If a bullet will go through a Hard wood tree, anybody that says it will not kill a deer is so full of bull, I'd disregard all of their other BS as well.

They may not be the greatest bullets ever but, they'll work. Alot of folks get their panties all in a bunch when you talk about NBTs. They'll work heck, we aren't talking Elk or Grizzly...... Its just deer sized animals.

Oh yeah, I can tell you about the huge Boar I dropped w/ a 150 from the 7RM as well.

Go on your Mulie hunt and smack one behind the shoulder, you'll be fine.

Good Luck

Reloader

Reloader,

The next time I need to "kill" a hardwood tree I'll call you. Sounds like you have a lot of experience...

Sorry... Couldn't resist...



$bob$

quote:

Reloader,

The next time I need to "kill" a hardwood tree I'll call you. Sounds like you have a lot of experience...

Around here there's so darn many, it realy doesn't hurt to Cull one from the herd every now and then. Heck, the timber companies around here don't like em' anyway. I try not to harm the acorn bearing trees too much although, that dang whiteoak in my front yard is dropping sap all over my new truck . Looks like me and the Chain saw have a job to do come spring.

Have a Good One

Reloader

Somewhere in a book on the Vietnam War I read an account of soldiers using M1 Garands to clear woods because thye had not received the requisitioned chainsaws yet and had thousands of '06 rounds available.

Varmintguy, I don't think you're playing with a full deck

AD

I shoot 180 gr. BTs out of a Rem. 721 all deer killed with it have been instant kills. Two shots were about 70yds. at about 3000 fps. one heart one neck, and suprisingly little meat damage.

I have only used the older BTs and I've heard they have thicker jackets, though I'm not sure.

Either way, I don't think you can go wrong with a partition. If I was worried about bullet failure I'd just go with a 416 Rigby or the like since it doesn't need to expand to kill.

What about Accubonds? a hybrid BT/Partition I think...

In my humble opinion the Ballistic Tip and the Partition - Failsafe Type bullets have both good and bad sides. I have taken numerous animals with Nosler Partitions and Win. Failsafes. The early Ballistic Tips blew up bad at High Velosity in the 243,25-06,and 270 calibers. At high velocity the Ballistic Silvertip will blow apart on bone more often than not. I think that both the Partition and Failsafe tend to not open up on deer sized game if no bone is contacted. I have killed at least 5 or 6 deer that never showed a sign of a hit and were found with a pencil size hole straight through. On big animals such as Elk,Moose,and Bear the Partitions and Failsafes really come into their own. I have taken dozens of head of big animals with my 338 Win Mag and the 230 gr. Failsafe. I also have a 300 Win Mag that shoots the 180 gr Failsafe load fantastic. I have taken loads of animals with it in Alaska,Canada,Africa,Australia, and South America and the Failsafe 180gr. performed great.

Hawkeye47

I don't understand anyone saying that they have had Partitions fail to open up. The front of the bullet is quite fragile and opens up readily in feral dogs, coyotes, neighborhood cats, turkeys etc. It leaves a destructive trail of tissue that is hard to mistake.

In whitetail up to elk I've always had them go in caliber size and come out half dollar to silver dollar size and the organs inside are wrecked with little meat damage.

I bet the Partition's tip is even more fragile than the nose of a ballistic tip. If not it's got to be close.

I've killed several hundred head of game of all sorts with 308 150gr Partitions and they ALWAYS opened up.

The reason I use Partitions for almost everything is the looooooong deer seasons here and I hate to carry a round in the chamber that is less than ideal for whitetail because they're so tasty.

I've only ever had ONE Partition fail to exit and that one was shot at a whitetail coming straight at me and I hit him dead center in the lower chest and the bullet was found in his left ham just under the skin.

Classic mushroom too.

Make mine a Partition gentlemen...

$bob$

saturady morning I spent several hours looking for a little doe shot with a Jarette 7-08ai & a 140 gr bal tip. It had been shot at about 60 yds with a quartering away shot. When we found it there was an entry but no exit with no blood where the deer had died. Afrer opening & skinning the deer the shooter found lead fragement at the enterance hole and the jacket with maybe 10% of the core about 8" foward the enterance. the bullet had a perfect mushroom but simple little penetration and a surprising lack of internal damage. Personally I'm too lazy to put up with these bullets

The BT's seem to work well on my MT muleys and whitetails. Shooting them out of a .280/.280 AI 150gr, and my .257 AI 115 grain they have worked 100% for me on 8 or 10 deer so far. I am a lung shooter so they waste little meat. I shoot BT's mostly because I buy BT's and partitions wholesale from a Dealer buddy so stock up evry few years on all the calibers I shoot. Frankly on ANY deer I've found most any soft point/hp bullet will work.
Factor in elk or larger game and the partition is my personal choice. I've never had a NP fail in 30+ years of use. I know what I can expect them to do and the shots I need to pass by.

Bullets right now are so well engineered and manufactured that these heated bullet "discussions", especially on deer or antelope, surprise me. Everything out there (in an appropriate for the game hunted weight and caliber) works 100%. Maybe these "failures" are due to poor placement??

FN in MT

formerly the poster known as Frank Nowakowski

I can say with confidence that a 250 pound mule deer 3x3 will drop on the spot after being hit with a 150 grain ballistic tip from a 7mm Rem. Mag at 280 yards when the bullet was placed right in the high shoulder. The bullet exited and took some bone with it.

Experienced another tried and true NBT experience Sunday afternoon while hunting w/ my wife.

Rifle was a Model 700 and I had a load w/ H4831 and 130 NBTs that was shooting well at a 2940fps MV. Three doe came out at 150 yards and made there way to 90 yards she focused on the biggest mature doe and when she turned broad side BAAM!!. The deer didn't react all that much to the shot so I wasn't sure if she was hit hard so, I slipped down the right-of-way and checked for blood and sure enough there was good lung blood. I trailed her for approx 60-80 yards through a bunch of saw briars and there she lay. Little hole in and Half dollar size exit out. Opened her up and the bullet nipped the entrance shoulder, blew through the ribs, destroyed the aorta and front of the lungs, pounded through off side ribs, and nipped the off side shoulder. Good blood trail.

Same good ole NBT performance and another happy hunter.

I've had better luck w/ the heavier weighted NBTs at higher velocities as far as trama and impact reactions but, these lighter loads for the wife do pretty well too.

Now, Hopefully I'll see a Mature Buck on my Texas Whitetail hunt next week and get to tell you all another successful NBT story then. This coming hunt will be w/ 150 NBTs in .284 from my 7RM (3110-3115 fps MV @ 12-15'), a tried and true load in the past on whitetail and hogs.

Good Luck to All

Reloader

My 13 year old son took his first deer, a mulie doe, last year with one shot at 270+ yards. He used a 6mm Rem, with handloaded 95 grain ballistic tips. They are the most accurate bullet we've shot from his rifle.

The deer was hit in the chest, not quite a broadside shot, more quartering towards us. Bullet took out the heart, lungs and broke the off-side leg on the way out. Shattered that leg bone! Bullet continued on, landing somewhere out in the brushy hillside... The deer of course collapsed immediately.

Very satisfying experience for both of us, a quick, clean kill at longish range and the 95 grain ballistic tip was an important part of it. Regards, Guy

I've shot quite a few deer and hogs (I don't keep a count, but well over 40 of both species) with 150 gr BTs in a .300 Win Mag loaded at high but not maximum velocity. They ALWAYS killed the animal and usually went through. I recall one nearly 300 pound hog that rolled over with a BT thru the near side ribs and out the far side shoulder AND shield. Maybe my BTs are tougher than some, I don't know.

BTW, the absolute worst performance I've ever seen of any bullet was with .300 WSM factory silvertips, 180s I think. A friend shot a roughly 200 pound sow at about 30 yards right in the shoulder. Bullet absolutely blew up. A couple of small jacket fragments penetrated into the lungs and killed the hog but the total wound channel of the main bullet was about 2 inches deep. Obviously the velocity and proximity of the animal exceeded the bullets design parameters.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Maybe my BTs are tougher than some, I don't know.

Nah, you just grow your hogs softer in East Texas

I've always loaded 150 BT's for my son's '06 at around 3000 fps for whitetails. Hogs he shoots with them die, typically on the spot. What else can I say?

We just came back from CO where he shot a bull elk with the same gun, but using 180 Partitions. It was a one-shot kill through the near shoulder into the heart-lungs (although he put another one into the neck while the bull stood there trying to figure out he was dead.) From the post-mortem, the front half of the bullet did all the work, as there was a signigicant bloodshot area on the near shoulder where the bullet entered, then jello-ed heart and lung, followed by a caliber-sized exit from the remaining rear section. I've got no problem with the extra penetration, but it was the action of the soft, rapidly expanding front half that caused the fatal trauma. I suspect that the elk would have fallen in the same place had the bullet been a 180 grain Ballistic Tip.

I've said it before and will continue to subscribe to the belief that more game is lost every year due to underexpansion of bullets rather than overexpansion.

Stonecreek, I couldn't agree more with your point. I've used NBTs for years with great success in all sized game, including large bull elk. When hit in vital organs (165 or 180 gr. NBT), these large elk die rapidly (usually in their tracks) and humanely.

Round two, large 9 point buck, 50 yards and a slightly angled broadside.
He still ran a ways with both lungs were well perforated.
The impact side lung was more clotted blood than anything else, off side had a solid 2" furrow which was also typical of the entry and exit wound channel.
I'm going to have to shoot one from a longer range so i can see if it's just the sound of the shot that's making them run.

quote:

But like I say, when you fail to put a deer in the pot with a BT, be sure to write again.

Not sure if that's going to happen Stonecreek

the 180gr out of my 30x378 250 yds+/- high shoulder found only a portion of the green tip bullet was fragmented result was dead deer but,i would not want to test this on elk or bear.

Round three, another tasty 1 1/2 year old doe at 50 yards.
Spine obliterated just above the scapula with a quarter sized exit through the off side scapula.
Cleaning revealed a shallow furrow through the lungs.