An instant kill is more about shot placement than bullet size or velocity, within reason. Key phrase here is "within reason". Bullet contruction has a heap to do with it also but without placement it's nothing. Accuracy is on the shooter and the rifle more than caliber or case size. Maybe this forum should put that statement on the homepage.

No, having a larger Caliber with a Heavier bullet does indeed make a significant difference in clean, 1-shot kills.

I can understand why a person would think the way 45otto does when they have made a few kills with smaller Calibers and relatelively light bullets. When they are placed properly, they can indeed result in impressive kills. Use a large Caliber cartridge with heavier bullets at the same Point of Impact and the results will also be impressive.

The problem comes when shot placement is "close to perfect" but not quite on the mark. Here the larger caliber shows it's superiority over the small caliber every time. With the larger caliber, heavy bullets, you ALWAYS get Exits, tracking is shortened and there is much less chance of totally loosing the Game.

A poor shot with the vastly superior larger Caliber still has the potential to loose the Game, just like the small calibers.
---

So, no indeed, it is not all about "shot placement", because when shooting Game, things just are not always perfect. And in those situations a larger caliber cartridge with heavier bullets makes a significant difference.

I can only agree with the large caliber heavy bullet argument if the bullet used is of proper contruction for the game it is used on. I have seen several cases where heavy for caliber bullets of very tough construction failed to expand enough on thin skinned game and resulted in longer trailing . Probably better for less meat loss, but not always the fastest kill. I will agree, however, that a bigger bullet of proper performance in the same location should generally do better. About the only guarantee for instant kill is CNS...and in the precise spot. Not all brain shots are equal.

FWIW

MFH

It depends on the game animal at hand as well as Cals and velocities you are speaking of..... Comparing a 243 Win to a 300 Mag or a 300 Mag to a 458 Win mag.

Dependant upon the game at hand the above examples have a differing effect. For instance if you are just talking medium deer sized animals, The 300 Mag offers much more in the instantaneous kill department than the 243Win but, OTOH the 458 doesn't offer anything over the 300Mag on game that small. As a matter of fact, I've found the much higher velocity carts like the 300WM etc. to give much more tramatic damage on animals of that size vs. the large cals like a 458WM even when the large bullets were the fragile pistol type. The faster velocity expansive bullets do quite a bit more internal damage on medium game than the slow moving expansive hard hitters but, they don't carry near the energy. On bigger game the upper hand goes to the big cals.

Reloader

Hi Reloader,

John Taylor would support the general concept of your posting in that he commented a 416 was superior to the 470 and even the 577, as I recall, for leopards and lions.

There's really no such thing as an "instant kill" in that it takes a few minutes for any kind of trauma to result in the death of an organism (although catastrophic trauma to the brain is essentially the same as "instant kill"). I think what is being referred to is a shot that instantly takes the game from its feet and from which the game never recovers sufficiently to regain its feet. A shot to the spine may achieve this, although a spinal shot may not always be fatal. A shot to the thorax of relatively light game with a high velocity, rapidly expanding bullet may also result in the game going down instantly and expiring without rising.

By and large, slower expanding, deeper penetrating projectiles are less likely to result in instant incapacitation (but are more certain to result in eventual death). Faster expanding (and typically higher velocity) projectiles are more likely to result in instant incapacitation, but sometimes fail to render a fatal wound. Pay your money and take your choice.

In the end, unless you hit the game in a vital organ, the debate is meaningless. A deer hit in the foot with a .375 H & H Trophy Bonded is wounded approximately the same as one hit with a .257 Weatherby 85 grain Ballistic Tip.

I'm with Hot Core on this one.


Once you have taken a significant number of large animals under differing circumstances and using different calibers and bullet forms some basic truths are revealed...


In North America I learned that larger caliber markedly showed a difference uon impact, or shocking power. In Africa I learned the value of using enough gun.

In case you haven't seen it, here's a Member's video showing a .375 H&H on a zebra. Video Clip

Unless there are going to be really long shots, I have gone to the .375 for all plains game. It really does the job, especially on tough animals like the zebra and wildebeest.

Regards,

Terry

All is moot, it comes down to bullet placement,I have a friend who uses a 6mm Ruger #1 to drop elk & deer but he can take head or neck shots.While on a hunt in far northern canada with outfitter/guides they asked if anyone was proficient with a rifle to help them get some caribou for camp meat.My friend volunteered and asked the guides where they wanted him to hit them :head,neck or chest?They said the chest would be ok so after dropping the first at 700 yds he asked if they wanted him to hit the next one in the neck or head they said the neck and it was done.Then they asked my friend where he learned to shoot and he told them he was USMC Recon member with a specialty as a sniper in Vietnam.They handed him a Purdy shotgun and asked if he'd get some ptarmigan for the camp cook when my friend hesitated & mentioned he wasn't licensed the guide said "Yank you see any ghame rangers here we're 600 miles north of civization".

I am a believer in big heavy bullets on large game. I have seen what my 300 RUM will do on large bull elk, as well as others using 270's, WSM's, etc....the "kill" is just not the same. With deer sized game, however, that is not the case with my kills...I can kill 'em just as quickly with my 257 Roberts as I can with my 300 RUM....I know...I've see me do it! But, with the big stuff, I will stick with the big cannons.

Bullet placement is the key.

This thread makes me think of the wolves I shoot over bait.
I use a .222 Rem. with 50 gr. ballistic tips. When I shoot a wolf that is facing me, right in the brisket, they drop like a sack of hammers and don't even kick. When I shoot them broadside at the same distance and same load, they go aways before pilling up.
Anyways, doesn't really matter, all I know is shooting them wolves straight on to me is sure effective.

Daryl

I'm with Hot Core.

I seem to remember a study that the Swedes did several years ago that showed the average time before death and distance traveled for some 1000 moose shot was no different from 6.5x55 through 458 win mag, but that was a few years ago. I wish I could remember which publication had the results.

As you say the study revealed that there was very little difference between calibers. The study took in to consideration the amount of shots fired and average fleeing distance per moose. As I recall, the "best" caliber was 6,5x55 and the .30-06 with an average of 1,4 shots per moose. The poor results of the heavy magnum calibers may well be explaind by the fact that quite few hunters use them, and perhaps the shooting skills of the hunters participating in the study were not great. One should remember that 99% of the moose are shot on driven hunts, thus making a quick follow-up shot necessary at times.

Best Regards

What stonecreek said....

Almost all 'bang-flop' killed animals are actually alive for several seconds after the shot, it's just that they're dead by the time you reach them a few minutes later. Even brain shot animals will have a heart beat for several seconds after the shot.

Large calibers are great as long as you are comfortable shooting them. I think a lot of people get in a habit of flinching before they pull the trigger due to the heavier recoil resulting in poor shot placement.

As I recall from my physiology classes, except in the case of massive trauma (think dynamite explosion), it is hypoxia, or lack of oxygen to the cells that kills. This may be from no breathing (spinal shot that paralyzes breathing muscles), loss of blood (the oxygen is carried by the hemoglobin in the red blood cells), lungs destroyed (not enough alveoli - tiny air sacs in the lungs to allow the oxygen to move from air to blood), or a heart shot (no pump to circulate the blood to the brain). Usually a combination of the situations above--animal shot through the lungs and the lung capacity and blood volume are both compromised, eventually leading to death as the brain cells die from lack of oxygen. The more organ-systems that are disrupted, the quicker the death (usually), but I've had heart-lung shot deer run 100 yds before dropping, although in a very few seconds. So, on instant kills--I agree with Stonecreek, for me an instant kill is one where they drop at the impact and never regain their feet even though they may kick a bit.

I disagree with Stone creek and others.

I've shot more than 50 deer and lots of beef, 14 elk, and about a dozen antelope and a bunch of coyotes.

Lung shot elk and most muley's will run between 75 and 200yds.

Head shot with a .22 they almost never do anything except hit the ground at the shot, maybe half will kick, the other half don't even do that.

While squirrel hunting as a kid in the summer of 1960 I came upon a 5pt bull elk and shot him under the ear with my .22. One of the most sudden kills I've ever made. I swear his head hit him in the ass before he went down and never twitched.

My last buck antelope was hit high center behind the shoulder at 130 paces and went down at the shot and never twitched either. That one hit the spine right up against the shoulder.

The most sudden instant death and no blood pumped either. Was with my Blackhawk .30 carbine at 15 feet brain shot 1200# beef. The bullet was dug out of the back half of the Atlas joint, 11" penetration.

We cut his head off to the bone and never bled more than 1/2 gallon. By the time we skinned and quartered him there wasn't another half gallon. I asked the butcher working with us why he hadn't bled because the first one had dumped about 3 gallons out when the throat was cut.
He jumped all over me about "because you killed him with that damned cannon pistol, stopped his heart and the bloods still in the meat and will ruin it for eating!". Until then I had no clue he was p'd off about it. As we were splitting the two beeve's among four of us I took my half from this instant kill. It was just as good or better eating as the other one. I ate some of it too and saw no difference.

Yes, depends on where they're hit of course and also what with. BUT: flat out saying it's not possible to fully kill instantly, you'd better back up and clarify a little bit before making such blanket statements. Fair enough SC??
Thank you,

Yes, those .22 shot game animals were poached. Many years ago, no, I don't advocate it, nor am I bragging either, fact is, I'm ashamed of doing it. But, I was a wild teenager with older bad influence's. No, I never got caught, but, almost did four times.

I've shot lot's of coyotes coming to a call. I use a .223 w/40gr in fur season and 55gr other times as it don't matter about damage then. Seems like most chest shots under 150yds with the 40gr don't kick at all either. Just down at the shot. Same thing happens half the time with same shots w/.17 Rems too. Has to be the near explosion inside their chest cavities. The one's shot with 55grs and heavier calibers usually go clear thru and they'll run a bit about half the time. Depends on if any bones are hit, or if broadside rib shots. Hit a bone like a shoulder and they'll just bounce at the shot and seldom kick.

I watched a partner shoot a buck antelope at 230yds with a 100gr Nosler from 25'06. Never even reacted, just stood there watching us, same as the four does in the bunch. Bullet kicked up dust 30yds behind and they never acted like anything had happened for nearly a full minute. Then all at once he just tipped over and never twitched til we walked most of the way out there. Then kicked up quite a storm, moved around spinning etc an area 10-15 feet dia. The does ran hard and never looked back once he tipped over. I really felt Charlie had missed the shot. That's the only time I've seen absolutely no reaction to a shot whether hit or not.

George

Georgeld,

Just something to think about...

Let's go one step further than a 'brain shot'..., which would be to completely decapitate an animal. Remember when your grandmother chopped the head off a chicken? It probably flopped around for several seconds spewing blood from the neck stump. Was it already dead? I guess on could argue yes and no... but the heart will continue to beat independent of brain function for a few seconds. But brain function is necessary for voluntary muscle control (which the heart is not), so the animal will not be able to breathe from the moment of the shot and the heart will stop beating shortly from hypoxia.

Another example would be a person on life support after major head trauma. Heart is beating, but EEG reveals no brain wave activity. Ventilator breathes for the person, but they are brain dead. Heart will continue to beat until they are removed from the respirator.

Granted all of this is a moot point, but a 'bang-flop' kill just seems to us as being more humane than a heart shot animal which runs 50 yards before falling, although in both cases the heart stops beating due to lack of oxygen a few seconds after the shot.

There probably are no bullets which cause an "instant kill" if kill is defined by cessation of cardiac activity. Nuclear warhead, yes.

I couldn't disagree more with 45otto...I just returned from a trip to Namibia and was using my 300WSM loaded with 180 grain fail safe bullets. The performance was horrible even with perfectly placed shots. I'm away from home otherwise I would have uploaded a couple of video clips to demonstrate my point. The fail safe bullets are too hard and when they are pushed at a really high speed there is no energy transfer resulting in animals running off. Dropping an animal cleanly is all about bullet construction, weight, speed and of course shot placement. When you get them all lined up the animals drop instantly. My perfectly shot springbok just continued to walk similar to deer that have been shot with a bow. It took almost one minute for him to realize that he was dead. I'll get that video loaded after the weekend...seeing is believing

quote:

I couldn't disagree more with 45otto...I just returned from a trip to Namibia and was using my 300WSM loaded with 180 grain fail safe bullets. The performance was horrible even with perfectly placed shots. I'm away from home otherwise I would have uploaded a couple of video clips to demonstrate my point. The fail safe bullets are too hard and when they are pushed at a really high speed there is no energy transfer resulting in animals running off. Dropping an animal cleanly is all about bullet construction, weight, speed and of course shot placement. When you get them all lined up the animals drop instantly. My perfectly shot springbok just continued to walk similar to deer that have been shot with a bow. It took almost one minute for him to realize that he was dead. I'll get that video loaded after the weekend...seeing is believing

Andre,

Your not the only one. Several guys in camp had miserable performance w/ them on whitetails. I witnessed many deer shot w/ them and they acted like FMJs. I will admit, they had no business using them on deer but, they shot well from their rifles.

Good bullets but must be used for their intended purpose (As it reads on the box of the factory loads "Intented for Large Dangerous Game").

I will say they will flat out slam and elk when fired from a 300Mag. Witnessed one hit through some pretty good bone at around 150yds, it did well.

Good Luck

Reloader

Regardless of what it says on the box. A 300WSM is not a dangerous game rifle. I was with Andre and together we shot 2 Oryx and One zebra with the 300WSM using 180 grain Fail safe bullets, same crappy performance!!! Every animal we shot using the Fail Safes ran off and died. We nearly lost a perfectly shot Impala, no blood and long grass!!

With perfect shoulder shots that should have bowled them over, they ran off like nothing happened and then dropped between 60-80 yards! Imagine if that were a leopard, coming your way!

Swift A Frames on the other hand, expanded on everything we shot (that too out of a 375), on small animals like Springbok, Leopard, Blessbok (none of them moved an inch).

Here is the evidence...the video I promised. As you will see the animal seemed to go back to feeding. It was a perfect shot and with any other bullet it would have dropped instantly.
Springbok Video

quote:

Regardless of what it says on the box. A 300WSM is not a dangerous game rifle.

Never said it was. Just said it was on the factory boxes of Fail Safes. The bullet was designed for the tough animals, not for the thin skinned medium sized critters. I personally wouldn't use them period. If I wanted to use a bullet that had 100% retention, I'd go w/ a Barnes.

There was a fella on the net a while back that said his DGR malfunctioned on his safari and he took his Buff w/ his plains game rifle (a 300WM and fail safes) despite being illegal and surprisingly took the animal very cleanly. Doesn't seem much dumber than Jim Shockey and his DG Muzzleloader kills. Luckily he has a good PH standing beside him.

Have a Good One

Reloader

Interesting video but I have had the same thing happen with 200 gr .338 Ballitic Tips which can hardly be called tough. Shot a big mature Axis buck through both shoulders at about 75 yds, right through the top of the heart with no reaction. The rest of the herd turned and walked away and he turned with them and walked with them until his lights went out. After cleaning it was clear from the remaining viscera that the bullet performed flawlessly; I just had an animal that didn't know it had been shot.

Just another data point... I've shot a variety of whitetails using 64 gr 223, 100 gr 243, 125 gr (MR) & 180 gr 30'06, 405 gr 45/70, and .600 roundball. All bullets struck the lungs, involved the heart - either by severing the plumbing or striking it directly, but hit no bones other than ribs. All made a short dash of 20-50 yards before expiring. Lungshot deer sometimes go farther, but not always. CNS hits notwithstanding, in my experience "bang flops" happen when the bullet hits the upper shoulder bones and/or the spine.

I'm not a "gun guy," but I did hunt with a friend in RSA a few years ago for various plainsgame: springbok, kudu, blesbok, black wildebeest (two each). Both of us used factory Failsafe loads-- in .270 Win. ALL dropped in their tracks at various distances between 80 and 200 yds. None were spined, a couple were hit in the scapula, most were hit in the ribs only. A couple got finishing shots while flopping on the ground. I also used factory Failsafes in .300 WSM two years ago on caribou. Both were broadside double lung shots that dropped in their tracks. No finishers needed. I would never hesitate to use Failsafes for any non-DG hunting, and would not hesitate to use for DG if the PH thought they'd be adequate.

Stonecreek is right close. The only way to instantly "incapacitate" any animal is to shut down the central nervous system. That can be massive trauma to the brain stem, parts of the spinal column etc. This can be accomplished with either high velocity, rapid expansion, or on the other end of the spectrum, blunt force trauma (with no pentration)....like a sledge applied to the base of the skull, or a large truck to the torso etc., etc.

Similar results can be gained by rapid bleed out as well. When a "double lung shot" results in immediade colapse, I suspect that the spine has been traumatized, or perhaps the aorta has been torn from the heart or some such similar trauma.

The bottom line is that dead is dead, so pick what works for you, a big hole caused by a slow moving large diameter bullet, or a smaller pill at hyper-velocity (as Weatherby prescribed).

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

By and large, slower expanding, deeper penetrating projectiles are less likely to result in instant incapacitation (but are more certain to result in eventual death). Faster expanding (and typically higher velocity) projectiles are more likely to result in instant incapacitation, but sometimes fail to render a fatal wound. Pay your money and take your choice.

Yep, that's what I thought until last November when a 3 point muley buck collapsed from a lung shot from my 7x57. I was shooting S&B factory ammo loaded w/ 173 grain softs at a chrony'ed 2350 fps. Shot was at 210 yards. Derndest thing I have seen in awhile!

The thing is not all animals shot in the same place with the same bullet will react the same way...unless the CNS is hit. Ive shot deer with a .358 225 gr BT right in the lungs..ran like hell for about 50 yds and died. Same shot with a 270 130 gr sierra...floped over. But ive had the exact opposite happen with each of the mentioned bullets. I do believe that shot placement is of the greatest importance..but bullet type,caliber and a few other variables come into play also. I also believe big animals need big bullets