Ok, I've been thinking a little about this in view of an upcoming Elk hunt in Wyoming. Let me say straight away that I don't mean, in any way, to pass judgment on either clients or guides!

This is only a plain question which I thought might get some interesting conversation.

In your experience, where is the line between the two? How black & white is it? How blurry is it? What should a client expect of one's guide, and what can the guide expect of the client?

My friend with whom I'm hunting is doing %100 of what I would consider the pre-hunting work. He's scouting likely areas on a regular basis. He's putting together the menu, supplies, and entire camp (we're not using horses). He's a very competant outdoorsman and a thorough professional. He also instructs for NOLS. Needless to say, I'm very grateful for all that he's doing--without which I don't think I would even be making the trip.

That said, I consider myself more of a "shooter" than a "hunter" for this particular trip.

What do you think?

friar

I think that in certain instances a guide hunts while a client shoots but I feel that the majority of the people I hunt with are hunting just as hard as I do. Every now and again you will have a client that does not glass or put any effort into his hunt, in this scenario I feel that they are dead weight and just along for the ride but this is a rare occurence. The majority of the people I have hunted with hunt just as hard as I do and will do whatever it takes to get the job done. I have seen a lot of paying clients that are as good if not better hunters than the guides they are hunting with. These guys are paying for the guides knowledge of the country they are hunting, nothing more. Those types of people are FUN to hunt with and in that instance they are working hard and deserving of anything they harvest. I dont think that there is any shame in hiring a guide or hunting with a friend that has a better knowledge of a particular area and I dont feel that an animal harvested in this circumstance is any less of an accomplishment than if it were killed on a DIY hunt. I would hire a guide in a second if I drew a great tag. A lot of the people that I have hunted with over the years are not just clients, they are hunting partners.

I guess that depends on how much input the guide allows the hunter.

It is hard for someone new to the area to effectively hunt it as someone who has done it many times. So the new guy relies on the guide on how to hunt the lay of the land. Best places to glass from ect.

I belive guides get a lot of people who do not know there ass from the ground they are hunting.
So after awhile they treat all there clients that way until they can get to know their hunting skill level.

I would like a guide to treat me like a good buddy that comes hunting. Instead fo someone that needs to be lead around by the hand.

But that gets to be hard when one has never hunted with that person and when that is what some people want.

When one is responsible for the others person safety ect do you want them wandering off by themselfs getting lost ect.

As I said it is a tough call when you are dealing with the unknow skill level of ones cleints. I would guess that when one has hunted with a guide more then once they come to know what each other can and should do.

I am sure there are guides that do all the hunting and just point to the critter and say shoot it. That their are hunters that do all the hunting while the guide screws off.

Just as there are differant types people we have differant types of hunts.

If a client has an once of brains and any sort of work ethic at all -- any desire whatsoever to maximize his investment and make a real hunt out of it -- he'll glass and otherwise work just as hard as the guide does. Sometimes harder.

But you do hear stories from top guides about clients who sit on their dead cans while the guide does all the looking, and I can't help but wonder why those guys ever bothered to book the trip to begin with..........

AD

I tend to think that a guide does most of the hunting, while the client does the shooting. I have been on one guided hunt as a hunter and I have guided 5 hunters as the guide. Obviously my experience is limited and my opinion is based on this limited knowledge.

Here is an example. A hunter books a guided trophy whitetail hunt. It could be in Texas, Iowa, or Canada. The hunter is placed in a stand by the guide. The stand was built and scouted by the guide. A trophy 190 class typical walks out and the hunter shoots the buck. Now the hunter obviously was the shooter, but was he really the "hunter"?

I tend to also think of WHY the hunter desires to take the guided hunt. Does he just want to kill? Must he kill to ensure a successful hunt? If the hunt is garaunteed or if the there are high numbers of animals seen each day in the area, it is more than likely the hunter is just the shooter and the guide is the hunter with the knowledge of the game and the habitat.

That all said, I hold no ill feeling toward a guided hunter, but I hold the Do-It-Yourselfer in high esteem.

Your just as much the hunter. You can still spot what you want to shoot. You still have to hike the same terrain, and make the shot. Every guided hunt I paid for and went on, was #1 for the experience, #2 for the animal. The kill is anticlimatic. But I spent the same amount of time and usually more,than my guide, using my bino's and spotting scope to find my quarry.

Just a thought but an experienced guide will ask the right questions and have a pretty good idea as to the skill level and experience of the person he is hunting with and he will then be able to determine the best way to hunt the area they are in based on that. I guess I am fortunate that the majority of our guys are repeat clientele and are all good hunters.

It is so easy to pick up on BS and know right away if a guy is full of shit or if he is a pretty straight shooter. Sometimes you know its going to be a long week before they even open their mouth.

I have what I consider a valid response to just about everyones post. Here goes:

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:
This is only a plain question which I thought might get some interesting conversation.

My friend with whom I'm hunting is doing %100 of what I would consider the pre-hunting work. He's scouting likely areas on a regular basis. He's putting together the menu, supplies, and entire camp (we're not using horses). --without which I don't think I would even be making the trip.

That said, I consider myself more of a "shooter" than a "hunter" for this particular trip.

What do you think?

friar

Yes, you are the shooter, but prehunt scouting by your friend is just that. But when you get there, there is no reason why you cannot hunt with him even though he has found a good area, etc.

My question is this: Since this is going to take place in WY, what are you going to say if a warden asks your friend is "guiding" you? Hope he has a "guide" license, or you do not get caught. I went with about 30 guys to WY in 95 where my friends from Tucson did all the homework, Plus, they had already hunted the areas. When we were all stopped by the wardens we were asked if anyone was "guiding" us and we said no, but that our friends were familiar with the areas and planned the whole trip. Guess who almost went to jail for guiding without WY guide licenses? I do not know if things have changed since then.

quote:

posted by p dog shooter:
It is hard for someone new to the area to effectively hunt it as someone who has done it many times. So the new guy relies on the guide on how to hunt the lay of the land. Best places to glass from ect.

I think P dog's post partially answers allan's question.

quote:

posted by allan day:
But you do hear stories from top guides about clients who sit on their dead cans while the guide does all the looking, and I can't help but wonder why those guys ever bothered to book the trip to begin with..........

I'll tell you why, and this is not my personal reason but what I've heard from other hunters who've booked hunts all over the world.

I've talked with guys that make comments like:

"I'm paying the guide and outfitter $10,000 for a trophy mule deer hunt, why the hell should I have to glass? That's what I'm paying them for. I'm in it for the outdoors, adventure, nights in camp, and the kill. If I wanted to go out and try my luck on my own, I don't think it would happen."

Another reason I find quite common is there are lots of hunters who have nowhere to go and have hunted, for example, whitetail, in their home state and never had success. They've saved $3000 for 3 years and go on that trophy shotgun hunt in Iowa and expect to be placed in a treestand the morning after they arrive where a 200+ class nontyp. is expected to walk by by 9am. After all, the guides have seen him throughout the summer, got his picture from the cudde back about 20 times, and put the stand up the day before it's hunted. That is just reality. Some outfitters go into this business knowing what their hunters expect and are OK with it.

quote:

posted by MC:

I tend to also think of WHY the hunter desires to take the guided hunt. Does he just want to kill? Must he kill to ensure a successful hunt? If the hunt is garaunteed or if the there are high numbers of animals seen each day in the area, it is more than likely the hunter is just the shooter and the guide is the hunter with the knowledge of the game and the habitat.

Of course these are all valid questions. And as friarmeier put it, what is expected of the guide and hunter/shooter. These questions, IMO, should be handled BEFORE BOOKING A HUNT. There should be no problem whatsoever with a potential client being open minded and be able to speak his mind on what he/she is looking for in a hunt. Same for the outfitter/guide. DesertTrophyHunts made it clear what he likes and dislikes in a client. I see no problem discussing that before the hunt is booked.

I think it is better to get a feel whether or not both are comfortable with what the hunt CAN be like where both enjoy it, or if they decide maybe they are not meant to do business.

It should be obvious by now that I'm 90% a do it yourself hunter. Yes, I've employed the services of guides for bear hunts because I was a bit chicken and don't have the time or gas money to drive or fly to New Brunswick, Alberta, or Maine every day to put out bait, lease land, scout, etc. That is why I hire a guide, plus I was a bit chicken, did I mention that? Bears really make my palms sweat when they are climbing my tree.

FWIW, I would also hire a bear guide for spot and stalk. What I expect is this: If I pay X amount of money, I would hope THEY'VE SCOUTED, KNOW THE AREA, HAVE PLENTY OF IT, AND HAVE EXCELLENT REFERENCES. I expect them to have enough fuel. I expect them to have enough food. I expect them to help my with my trophy in the event that I make a kill, I need their help with all nonres paperwork, especially internationally. I do not feel like this is too much to ask from someone who is in business for HUNTERS/shooters. And all of the items I meantioned have been incidents that have occurred to hunters I've met at airports, or someone I know personally.

What they will see from me: I will keep up, I have my own optics with tripod for glassing all day if necessary, I need my potty breaks like anyone else and if I forget my toilet paper, I hope he brought some , I would gladly glass one slope while he glasses another. I can hunt for 14+ hours per day, I can sleep on the ground if necessary, I don't mind rain because it's only water, and the only thing I'd ever bitch about was my own incompetence or my bad knee. I like to shoot every day back at camp to ensure my scope is on. Part of my goal with a guide is to demonstrate that I know what the hell I'm doing too in terms of wind, shooting, knowing my rifle and load, stalking, etc. I'll bring my own knife and gut my own kill. I've probably skinned as many deer as most hunters and guides have ever seen. I use to help a friend of mine who processed deer. I'd skin deer for him on the weekends. Plus what I've done on my own.

But keep in mind this is a vast business and everyone has their own personality. Bottom line is, sometimes they conflict. And even though we all try to be easy going (I hope), I also feel like if a guide makes a promise, the hunter/potential client should get it in writing, even via email.

Example: I was told on a recent bear hunt that a wolf tag was included on my bear hunt at no extra charge. When I got there, it was a bit of an issue for about 5 minutes as the guide either "forgot" or acted like he forgot all about it. Tried to talk me out of it..."do you really think you're going to see any wolves?" "How can you tell if it is a alpha male?" "You should only shoot a male ya know."

BS!! I'd give $1000 to a guide that can tell me a solo wolf is male or female at 100+ yards. I looked at him right in the face and said, "I brought all of your emails and what you said was included in the hunt, would you like to see them?" End of discussion.

Think of it like this, we do not all think alike. Our expectations on any hunt where we pay a guide will more than likely differ. I do not hold it against a 55 year old man taking his 77 year old father out to Montana on a dream elk hunt where they could barely afford the flight, and hunt fees, and they did not have the money for a spotting scope or better binos to assist in the glassing. They made the effort to climb at elevations they've never seen. They've ridden horses daily. They've slept in tents by fires every night. They brought their only rifles with factory Remington Corelokts from Wally World but they shot for a month before departure. They are 6+ hours into a hike on foot and spot a trophy elk all at the same time on a creek 140 yards away and "papa" gets to shoot him, and he and his son are thrilled.

Now, was he a hunter or just a shooter? My answer, both. And good for him.

I will admit I was on one hunt that I didn't work very hard at - New Zealand. MS AZwriter and I were so tired that we took a nap while the guide glassed. Hell, there were so many tahr there, I could have done it as well. The chamois I shot was spotted by the guide; I never would have seen it.

So I was pretty lazy that hunt. But at least I insisted that we would not use a helicopter to hunt. We actually did a few days later, when one dropped us off 25 miles from anything and we hiked/hunted out on our own. That was fun.

Hello everyone,

Thank you so very much for your comments! I never imagined there'd be so many thoughtful, well-put remarks, each bringing a unique and helpful perspective.

One thing that seems to have come to the surface is that hunts for different species will entail different circumstances and expectation; ie; whitetails and elk.

But one similarity is the question of what sort of effort the client is willing to put in. Seems like the greater the effort, the closer to "hunting." But as soon as I say that, I think of the point that when a client pays a large sum, what's wrong with enjoying some of the more luxurious aspects of the hunt?

Same with the note on family hunts; differing physical abilites will entail different expectations and different criteria as to what makes for a rewarding and satisfying trip.

The more I think about my own trip this fall--that is, the more I hear from folks who know around here--the more confident I become. I know I'm in better than average shape. I know I have the desire and wherewithall to put in long days and smile through bad weather. I know that, whether we harvest an animal or not, my time will be well spent with a good friend.

Now, if I can just figure out a way to help my wife cover evenings/meals/cleaning/childcare while I'm away! She's allotted me 10 days, plus airfare; the least I can do is figure out some evening/cooking help for her and the kids (one is 2 and the other will be 5 months!).

Any suggestions, now, on the home front?

Again, thanks for a great conversation!

friar

Yes, the guide does the hunting - you do the shooting. This SUCKS and that's why I don't use guides. I hunt and shoot myself!

Yes, the guide does the hunting - you do the shooting. This SUCKS and that's why I don't use guides. I hunt and shoot the game myself!

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:
Any suggestions, now, on the home front?

friar

Yes. Write out a day planner for your spouse with what meals are easy but nutritious, especially with kids that young. They should be eating 3-5 servings of fresh fruits and vegetables every day.

Before you go on your trip, go to the grocery store and have all the food there at the house. Ask if any family can come and help, even if it is for a day or so. We've been lucky that way.

Ultimately you'll be leaving behind a small infant, and if your spouse happens to fall from the same mold most women do, you'll get a "reaming" upon your return. And you most certainly shouldn't complain at all about how your trip went wrong and how. Even if it did go bad somehow, better make sure you point out how "worth it" it was.

Call every chance you can.

Tell her to order out at least twice in 10 days and have food delivered. It's a pain to take a toddler and an infant out with a diaper bag, car seats, etc. every time she wants to go somewhere.

Go buy each child a new outfit ON YOUR OWN and tell her that "these would be nice if you managed to get out on a nice day and take the kids for a walk."

Make sure you have EVERYTHING in the house that she'll need in case ANYTHING happens.

Get some nice smelling candles with matches in case the power goes out. Make sure she has a flashlight with fresh batteries by the bed. Don't let her run out of toothpaste, laundry detergent, bleach...STAINOUT for kids clothes.

Ask her friends and family or whomever else she's close to to call her daily.

Take her car and get it washed and vaccuumed out before you go. Make sure she doesn't need an oil change and all that crap. Make sure there's plenty of dog food/cat food/litter, if applicable.

Get the picture?

You can do all of the extras for under $100. It will ease any tension upon your return if that happens to be the case. MAKE SURE SHE HAS SPENDING $$$.

Most of the time if you're leaving behind a couple of small children like that, something is bound to go wrong, even if it is truly no big deal to you, you won't be there, and it "may" be your fault. Go ahead and accept the "guilty" verdict and do what it takes to make amends. Because none of it matters...you were gone.

Be thoughtful, be caring, but be yourself. I know a lot of guys that don't hunt much because they screwed up somewhere before a hunting trip. Afraid of the ramifications upon return.

Of course, not all spouses are bad. Mine isn't...(not anymore).

Try a guided backpack hunt for sheep or mountain goats.On the hunts that I went on the client must carry his own pack with his own gear as well as part or the food and supplies and his rifle.If the client can't hike a reasonable distance with the pack and then climb the mountains on foot to stalk the game,he has no chance of being successful.As well you have more hunting time if the client helps with chores such as setting up the tent,fetching water and such.Guides seem to make an extra effort for a client that makes an effort himself.

quote:

Yes, the guide does the hunting - you do the shooting. This SUCKS and that's why I don't use guides. I hunt and shoot the game myself!

And you won't get to hunt several species of game that live in locations that require a guide for non-residents.

Doc, thanks for the advice--rest assured I'll follow your Rx to the letter!

I've been thinking about a lot of the things you mention in one fashion or another, and you're right on--it will make my time away tolerable, if not desireable. More importantly, she will have her hands full, and I certainly don't want to leave them in a lurch!

Many thanks,

friar

Have I jacked my own thread?