FINALLY!!!! In the August 2002 issue of GUNS&AMMO Magazine there is a pro-con article on this. Wayne van Zwoll comments on non-magnum cartridges and of course Craig Boddington is all for the magnums, This article may answer a lot of questions for new shooters and hunters.

This is my own opinion. It's a shame that Boddington has impughned his own veracity by inane support of anything with the word magnum in it. I think Waynes comments are a presentation of reasonable experience. Boddington's comes down to chest beating. I intend to keep my copy for newbies to read. Good luck all.

One can argue that some magnums are very appropriate, as in hunting dangerous game, etc.
I've found that the bullet make far more difference than the load.
Until I actually saw what really good bullets, like the Nosler Partition, can do to even elk class stuff out of our lighter rounds, I wouldn't have believed it either. The bullet has to penetrate enough to reach the vitals. I've seen the .243/.25-06 class rounds do this so well, and so many times, on elk class stuff it has become expected. And I mean shoot through, or take out a shoulder and penetrate both lungs, etc.
The only real drawback to the light stuff, with the best bullets, on this class of animal is that they run out of energy as the range opens.
So, if you insist on doing much of your game shooting over 300 plus yards, maybe a magnum is for you.
Let's not forget the problems of recoil, and rifle weight.
I can handle a magnum. But I shoot better, significantly better, with a standard round. And I hunt more efectively when I carry a light rifle. In otherwords, my attitude doesn't go down hill quite so fast when I carry a lighter rifle. E

Need has nothing to do with it. "Want" is the key word. I wanted a .300 WSM and got it. I'll eventually reload to match my intended target.

On the Wayne/Craig debate, which I've not read, I'll admit I respect both men, but Wayne has always been the type of writer I like; a little less testosterone / macho mix.

I would tend to believe the side supported by John Wootters, which I believe would be Wayne's.

I like the standard belted magnums very much, and use them for much of my hunting. I need them because they work well for me, I can shoot them, and I enjoy them. That's good enough for me!

AD

I think Boddington's presentation was fairly tempered, actually. Notice at the beginning of his piece that he wishes he was writing Wayne's side (i.e. the standard cartridges). Also, it just boiled down to the issue of long range, from what I gathered from Boddington's opinion. It's all about application and the situation at hand.

There is also an article in that issue that details what all these writers carry when hunting deer, and Boddington specifies the .270, .280, and .30-06 as his primary cartridges of choice.

Personally, I'll never own a belted cartridge aside from the originals....375 and .300 H&H. On anything else, I think the belt is like hubcaps on a handcart...a waste of space and material. But, that's just one man's questionable opinion.

RSY

For long range (350 yards or longer) I prefer a magnum.

However, there are plenty of other things that I can disagree with General Craig about.

I don't have any use for boddington but still choose to shoot magnums.My own belief is that if we spent less time telling others what to shoot or what not to shoot and spent more time hunting we would all be happier people.Having the choice to shoot what you want is one of the great things about our sport.

Magnums have their place, especially for heavy game and longrange shooting but hunters and shooters new to the sport will always be better off starting out with a standard caliber. I wish all gunstore clerks would ask people what they were experienced with first before trying to push a magnum on to 'em. Or, if a newbie comes in wanting the most super duper mag they have, to just try and reason with them about the joys of standard calibers; some do. My first hunting rifle that I bought and as an adult was a .280 rem. in the old very light ruger m77 semi-crf. It kicked right-smart from the benchrest but once I got it sighted-in, my first three-shot group measured .5"; cool. I just love the .243 for new young deer hunters.

Man you guys are reasonable today! I expected a real cat fight about this subject.

When all the smoke clears from this post it will just boil down to the fact that everyone needs to shoot whatever floats their boat? Personally, I'm not much of a magnum fan as I think MANY shooter's can and would shoot a LOT better without the added recoil and blast. And I think the precious few extra feet gained by most magnums is HIGHLY over rated in terms of any real hunting value.

But whatever you have or hunt with, if you like it and perform well with it...then I'd say that is a good rifle for you.

GENTLEMEN,
Congratulations. I half way expected a dog fight over this thread. I agree with every entry. There are many valid points on both sides of the issue. This has been a "GOOD READ". Lets see what happens over the weekend. Have a good weekend all.

This is causing me a lot of consternation as I am still debating the caliber of elk/moose rifle I want.

On one hand I am not a magnum fan, but really most standard actions won't give me enough performance over my current rifles, all of which are at best adequate for such uses.

I guess most hunters would be best off with a standard or short action rifle, but there is a place for magnums even in NA.

Keep up the great discussion.
Bob

In reality all sort of cartridges can be used in the USA to hunt our game, including the bears, and they don't have to be "Magnum." For example, the most popular Magnum cartridges in Alaska are the .300WM and the .338WM, but the .30-06 is still more popular.

I use a Magnum just because I wan the extra punch it provides on moose or bears, specially should I have to break a shoulder or take a quartering shot. But the more I think about it, a Magnum rifle makes me feel a little better in bear country, which in fact could at times amount to a false sense of security. A .30-06 with the proper bullet is a great moose cartridge, and lots of bears have been killed with it; in capable hands it can be as deadly as any Magnum.

Almost forgot about "the belt!" I love belted cartridges from the .300 to the .458. The belt may not be needed, but since it is already there I just live with it. The belt has never gotten in my way every time I have dropped a moose with my .338. I reload to headspace at the shoulder, and never worry about it. I rely on the bullet to kill game, not the belt.

[ 07-06-2002, 23:06: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

I don't need anything more than 308win for moose and down. I don't shoot at long ranges.
But I must say it would be kind of boring with just the 308 around.

Wayne van Zwoll is one of my favorit gun writers.

Johan

Ray - Excellent post and I think you raise a good point about the magnums giving one a little psychological boost, whether there is any real advantage or not. So long as a magnum does NOT take away half of that shooter's marksmanship in the bargain, then something is gained and nothing is lost.

Whenever I read articles ranting about how magnums are NEEDED or ESSENTIAL to successfully hunting this species or that, I have to wonder how our father's and all the hunters who have gone before us managed. Few of them ever saw a belted case and yet they distinguished themselves around the hunting world. I have seen too many good shots become rather poor shots because they badly over-gunned themselves.
Rather than gaining with a magnum...they LOST.

The real value of the magnum case has been to provide extra case capacity for the large calibers. With the arrival of the "short magnums" and such advances, this may be fixing to change. Could we be looking at the ultimate end of the belt? Fine with me if we are moving towards this.

I have never been a Van Zwoll fan and he has not the hunting experience to be so sure of himself IMHO...Boddington, wheather you like him or not, has hunted the world over many times and is pretty savvy...

I like Magnums, they work for me..I shoot the 338 Win, 300 H&H, 375 H&H,...FACT: they all kill better and shoot as flat as an 06, .308. or whatever...and they do not blood shot as much meat.

There seems to be a percentage of posters on these boards that want to prove their skills by useing lesser calibers, so be it, but it proves nothing to me....

I also shoot the 30-06, 7x57, 8x57 and 9.3x62, but so what?? I even hunt deer with a 25-35 allmost every year, but I sure am carefull about how I use it, and I KNOW it is not as good as a 257 Robts. or 25-06 thats a no brainer and so is the rest of this subject.

I don't think I'd be a better hunter if I where given a 9.3x62 or some ultra mag. I don't like recoil. I even thinks the 308 is unpleasant when lying down.

The lesser caliber gives me more security, more practise and it makes me a better shooter. And in turn a better hunter that if I had a 338 Laupa Magnum. I'm sure that my 308 does the work as god as any other caliber on the animals I hunt at the ranges I shot. Under 200 meter.

Johan

I don't like any of the belted magnums. With exception of the .300 Winchester.... the .338 Winchester, the 7mm Remington Magnum, the .375 H&H, .358 Norma (and it's little brother the .300) the .300 H&H and a few others. I also like the 30/06, the 270, .280 Remington, the 7X57, .257 Roberts and on and on. They have their place just like the non magnums do. You dont use a roofing hammer to frame with.

I do like both Boddington and VanZwoll (and Ray he has a wealth of hunting experience, not as much African stuff but he was a guide for years and hunts all over the country as most of these writers do - he can put me to sleep with his prolog history though)

I found some statistics in a magasine. (Jakt og Fiske nr 5 2002.)
This is divided on 4353 moose on a 1.7 million m�l area in Sweden. That is, if I got it right, 420079 acres.

With a 6.5x55 there was shot 1233 moose. Average distans vere 58 meters. There vere 1.5 shoots per moose after the first shot. The moose went in avarge 38 meters.

For the 30-06 the same numbers are 1372 moose, 60 meters, 1.5 shots ans 41 meters.

For the 300 WM it was 22 moose, 68 meters, 1.7shots and 23 meter.

The 9.3x62 gives 242 moose, 62 meters, 1.4 shots and 38 meters.

458 WM gives 14 moose, 55meter, 1.4 shots and 22meters.

The 7mmRM gives 47 moose, 66 meters, 1.4 shots and 55meters.

375HH gives 204 moose, 58 meters, 1.4 shots and 38 metes.

8x64 gives 18 moose, 73 meters, 1.3 shots and 27 meters.

308win gave 671 moose, 62 meters, 1.5 shots and 36 meters.

Total average was 4353 moose, 60meters, 1,5 shots, 38 meters. That is very close to the 6.5 numbers.

Not much real differnse, if you ask me. But this is statistics and not to be trused 100%, but it gives some clue for the situation here in Norway and Sweden. I left out some calibers. There was not really that much differens.
I'd like to hear from someone that know this statistics a bit better. Are they reliabe? Any Swedes know?

I'd like to ad that I ever get to hunt buffalo ore some other DG. I'd use something bigger than 375, like the 470NE. I'd might considere the 9.3x74 in a nice dobbel. It would kick me silly but what the heck. If I don't win the 45-70 raffel then

Johan

[ 07-07-2002, 02:09: Message edited by: 308winchester ]

I'm haven't done as much hunting as most on this board but I have hunted long enough to have some experience on this topic.

My first deer rifle was a 30-30. It was OK to start with but wasn't accurate enough for me.

My next deer rifle was a Ruger M-77 in 30-06. That was a very good rifle. I harvested every animal with 1 shot with the exception of a mule deer that I shot in the shoulder. He ran ~100 yards and dropped but didn't die immediately(he didn't get up but he did lift his head) so I shot him in the neck to finish him off.

I then got "magnumized" and bought a 257 Weatherby. That gun was very accurate and a pleasure to shoot. In my experience, it dropped deer faster than anything I've ever used. I would shoot and the deer would almost "disappear" only to be found where they were standing. I never needed a follow up shot with that gun.

From there I thought; If the 257 Wby is that good, I should get the 300 Wby and use this as my "all around" big game gun. On paper it looked great. The gun was a Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight in 300 Wby. It was light and accurate. I thought this would be the perfect gun and therefore had sold my Ruger M-77 in 30-06 and Weatherby Mark V in 257 Wby.

For many this may be the perfect gun/cartridge combo but not for me. ALTHOUGH THE GUN WAS ACCURATE, I WASN'T ACCURATE WITH THE GUN. With that gun, I had a chance to take a nice buck in the bottom of a draw, standing still at 250 yards last season and I BLEW the opportunity. I took the first shot in the kneeling position using the tailgait of my truck as a rest and I missed. The buck ran ~40-50 yards and stopped to see what happened and I shot 2 more times from the prone position and failed to take him. I was almost in shock! I couldn't believe my eyes! From there my cousin and his step-father also proceeded to shoot at this buck but no one put him down. What's worse is that he appeared to be limping when he slowed down and left our sight. We didn't find anymore sign of him and never recovered him as a result. That was the end of the trip for me. I lost all desire to hunt anymore that trip and I still feel bad to this day. It did cure me of my desire for a "big boomer" as the discomfort of practicing was probably a big factor in my failure to take that deer. I did practice but obviously not enough. All my "practicing" probably came to ~200 rounds total. I thougth that that 250 yard, downhill, standing shot was well within my ability. I was obviously overconfident in my ability and wrong.

Therefore, I'm going to be shooting a standard caliber again(280 or 30-06) so I can do the kind of practicing that I obviously need(comfort-wise and $$-wise). Until I prove to myself that this won't happen again, I won't take another shot at a deer. I don't think I could handle watching that again.

I knew the whole time that I didn't need that big of a gun for deer but I was having fun trying the different cartridges. That train of thought has cost me dearly but hopefully taught me a very valuable lesson!

Of course I need a magnum! The bigger the better
in my book!

Ross
web page

I respect both these guys (Boddington is reputed to have taken as much game on various continents as anyone alive), though I like VanZwoll's writing better... I think he's a level-headed guy with a LOT of NA experience. Having read him through the years I've noticed his PERSONAL preference (as opposed to articles like the one described) on elk-sized stuff always tends to be a magnum of some sort, primarily a 30O Norma or WM with the odd 7 Mag or 338 thrown in... that should tell you a little bit about what he REALLY thinks when push comes to shove!

Personally I have no use for a mag below 30 cal., as I'd wager the "standard" rounds work as well with less fuss on smaller stuff like deer. To me (again, personal opinion), the magnums "come into their own" on larger, tenacioius stuff like elk, et.al.

Chic, no wonder it took me so long to get my house up... I used my roofing hammer for everything !

BA

Nebraska, I've seen several shooters follow the same pattern you describe. I hope you'll get back into the swim, pick you out another good rifle and rejoin the ranks of hunters.

I think all hunters should use enough gun and use the right bullet and know what they are doing with both. But this "enough gun" seldom requires a magnum to strain out those last few feet per second to qualify.

You sound like a fellow who might totally enjoy a 25/06....or .270...or 260 Remington. Have fun picking out your next rifle!

I do not see a need for a magnum unless one is planning on long range shots. I only own one rifle with the Magnum designation. It is a M70 Super Grade 300 Winchester Magnum. It is also the least powerful sporting rifle I own.

SRS

[ 07-07-2002, 05:33: Message edited by: SRS ]

Shoot what you like! Pretty simple isn't it??

Some people buy magnums to drive standard bullets at high velocity. Like driving a 150 grain bullets at 3400 fps with a .300 winchester. This does make for a nice flat trajectory compared to an 06 150 grain load at about 3000 fps. I think the small bore magnums .25-.30 are best used for driving the heavy for caliber bullets at higher velocity. A 200 grain 30 caliber bullet at 2950 fps will shoot as flat as the 06 150 grain and really deliver some energy when it arrives. But to each his own. Remember to use premium bullets if you like to load light bullets in magnums at high velocity. Standard bullets might blow-up on close in game and will really ruin some venison chops.

/

I think most hunting can be handled w/ a "standard" cart. If one thinks they may be shooting past 300yds, I would like the advantage of a bit flatter cart. that hits a bit harder. I shoot a .338-06 as my primary elk rifle. A few years ago I had to take a 325yd shot, close to sunset, on a big bull or miss the biggest bull I have ever had a chance at. I took the shot, the bull went down, but my confidence level was shakey. The bull took the hit w/o showing any sign of it. Would the mag. have made much difference? Probably not, but I think I would have the confidence to take the shot again with a .338 mag. With the .338-06, I might pass on the next one difficult shot.

Question? Do you really need a magnum?
Answer: No

Paul Barnard

If you hunt where the ranges are long then a powerful cartridge will be an advantage. If the ranges are not long and the game is not really big then "magnums" are a disadvantage with the recoil, blast and heavier rifle weight.

I used to hold the belted "magnums" in awe. No longer. The fad is off on belts right now in my opinion.

If someone has the feeling that the recoil and blast from a particular rifle is going to hurt them then good shooting may not happen and missed or wounded game may result. There is a wide range of people and how much recoil they can take. It's best to be honest with yourself and not hunt with a rifle that kicks too hard for you. With practice a heavy kicker can be adapted too but if you yank the trigger a miss is a miss.

Alf, you're entirely correct, of course, about the term "magnum." As coined by the Brit's I believe it was a way to designate a larger case with more potential power (from the large "magnum" champagne bottle)... of course it was a marketing move first and foremost! As long as men who draw breath upon the earth make and sell stuff we'll always have marketing BS to contend with!

Heck, there is no "standard" case (unless we all agree there is some sort of "standard" which I doubt will happen)... there are just dimensional variations of the little brass cylinder's we call "cases"... if you look at it dispassionately and in that light, the "romantic alure" (nonsense) goes away, and one can begin to make intelligent choices about what brass cylinder is apropriate for a given task.

Paul Barnard, I'm interested in your response... can you ever envision a scenario outside of deer hunting in MS where more power may be helpful in humaely dispatching an animal?

Curious...

Brad

Brad:

Absolutely! There are hunting situations here in MS where a magnum may be in order. Just not where I live. Generally speaking though, I think the need for a "magnum" is somewhat overblown. I wish I could find B & C's record book list. I saw the top 30 brown bears listed several years back and the most common chambering was the 30-06.

I was invited to hunt a camp in Alabama several years ago. It was in the "black-belt" where the deer get pretty big and the ranges across the bean and corn fiels can be long.

The smallest caliber in the camp was a 270 Win. Everyone else (other than me) had a magnum. I had a 257 Roberts with factory loaded 120 gr Partitions. The woods that surround these crop fields are very dense. You really need to ancor the deer. Given that most hunting is done in poor or fading light only increases the need for a quick kill. I helped several other members find their deer. I harvested three. All were one shot kills which required no tracking.

Now this story on the surface means very little. It does reflect though, that a magnum alone does not guarantee success. A properly constructed bullet, properly placed and used within the limitations of the cartridge will be successful.

There were situations where I would have passed on a shot with the Roberts, but would have touched off a shot with a 257 Weatherby if I had one.

By the way, when someone makes a 257 SFM (short fat magnum) I'll jump on that bandwagon. The Weatherby is just too cost prohibitive.

Paul Barnard

The only advantage to Magnums is trajectory, and that can be a real plus depending on where you hunt...Even the mighty 300 RUM will be a 30-30 at some point....

I like'm and I use'm, but I don't HAVE to have one...I suppose my old 300 H&H is my all time favorite NA rifle when I trophy hunt Mule Deer or Whitetail, I like my 338 Win in Elk country, but if I was packing a .308 and I sometimes do, it seems to work well. But in the dark timber and taking whatever shot is presented, the 338 with a big 250 to 300 gr. bullet really shines.

Chic,
Pardon me, I had Wayne Van Zwoll mixed up with John Barsness, who I am in constant conflict with, on various issues.

I have read Van Zwolls stuff but I'm not real impressed with any N.A. gun writer except Phil Shoemaker and Ross Seyfried on hunting and ken Howell and Ken Waters on guns(Seyfried on both)....Most write the same stuff over an over. Most of these guys ran out of material about 10 years ago, and thats not a condemnations just a fact, there is just so much out there to write and its been done, I suppose they could write about the 270 vs. the 30-06!!

Paul, I love the 257 Roberts (I've had two) and think it's a dandy deer/varmint round. I suppose it's all too true that guys buy "Beanfield" rifle's to shoot deer with. Often they're a magnum of some sort with a bulky scope on top. While this is all fun and games, I really can't envision a deer hunting situation where a 270 topped with a 2x7 and loaded with a good 130 grainer couldn't handle the job! To each his own however! I'm honestly not a big fan of magnum's... I do like the 338 WM on elk as it seems to work (so far) with real authority. By today's "Magnum Standards", however, it's a bit anemic, LOL!

Regards,

Brad

I agree with many here that the thing a magnum contributes to mostly is efficency at range. Theres nothing that a load with the Magnum designation will do at a shorter range that cant be achieved with a standard round.

Ive not owned a Magnum for several years now and am still fine with that, however I confess that a WSM is beginning to look rather appealing to me. I think theyre heading in the right direction with those cartridges.

With the exception of the 270, every rifle I own is a magnum of some caliber or name. I would disagree with Ray about his statements concerning their only advantage being trajectory. I appreciate their stretched string trajectories too, but their abilities with the heavy for caliber bullets is what I favor. Any good 300magnum can push the 200gr Nosler faster than a 30/06 does a 180gr. I'd much rather hunt elk with the 200gr. Any 338 or 340mag can do with a 250gr what the 338/06 does with a 210gr or 225gr, and once again I like heavier bullets!

Do I "need" a magnum, I guess not. Then again, I don't "need" much of a reason to own as many flavors of rifles and calibers as possible. About the only limiting factors for "need" in my book are the bank balance and the "bosses" (wife's) approval.

I should clarify that I'm not a huge fan of recoil so I tend to lean more towards "standard" calibers when it comes to hunting. My long-time favorite big-game rifle has been a Remington ADL stainless Mountain Rifle chambered for the .270 Winchester. I don't see much point in taking ultra long shots (beyond 400 yards), so for my needs the .270 Winchester stoked with 130gr handloads fits the bill perfectly. I've owned a stainless Ruger .300 Winchester for a few years and it's accounted for critters from red fox to mule deer, but it's generally not my "go to" rifle. I recently aquired a Browning A-Bolt Medallion in .300 Win. Mag. from a fellow board member. This rifle has a Barnes muzzle-brake, which I'm hoping makes it a bit more tolerable on the shoulder; although harder on the ears I'm sure. I guess my point is, a fellow could probably get by in life with a .22LR, a 12 Gauge, a varmint rifle of some type, and something in the .270/.30-06 class, but what fun is that?

As far as the new breed of "short-magnums" goes, I personally wouldn't beat down the doors to get one, especially if I already had something similar to the battery I listed above (.270 Win/.300 Win. Mag.) Maybe if I had a void to fill between calibers I'd consider it, but the cost of ammo and the lack of availability would make me think twice. A shorter action and lighter rifle might be apealing, but then I believe you're looking at increased recoil, which is not a good thing in my book.

Lastly, I keep reading about cartridge "efficency"; meaning less powder being burned to achieve similar velocities, being touted when the "short-magnums" are discussed. The question I have is: at what point does "cartridge efficency" make up for the initial higher cost of brass, dies, rifles, etc.. for the new breed of "short-magnums"? Again, this is only my opinion, but I believe magnums really shine when it comes to pushing heavy for caliber bullets while still maintaining decent velocities, not in pushing lightweight bullets at breakneck speeds. I know todays premium bullets (Barnes X, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Fail-Safe, Partition, etc..) throw a monkey wrench into my theory (opinion), but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Sorry for rambling.

[ 07-08-2002, 04:31: Message edited by: Buster ]

Buster,

Always nice to see another Utahn on the board. You make some good points about the new mags but IMO efficency and accuracy combined have been a formula for some very successfull rounds and is the way loads of the future should be made.

Im not knocking down any doors to get one either but if they are a success then in time the components should become more reasonable to buy. I think Ill just wait a while and see what happens.

I met a couple young fellows today who really seem to need thier magnums, and BIG ones too.Went to my gopher shooting place today but the farmer wasn't home so I stopped by the range on the way back.A couple young fellow were shoooting an Accumark in 30-378 and a spankin' new Rem 700 LSS in 7mm UltraMag.Both with 3.5-10X Leos,50mm's of course.The 5'6" 160 pounder who has owned the 30-378 for four years took the brake off to save his ears when hunting.The 180 Grand Slam over 104 grs of IMR7828 sure bounced him on the bench though....he really didn't shoot it that much.The other fellow had owned the 7Ultra for a couple weeks,his first centerfire rifle.Must have been some good salesman behind the counter that day!I wish I'd had my 7 Rem Mag and my chrony with me.I'd would have liked to have seen his face when my 140 Ballistic Tip load posted a 3350+ number,wonder what the factory 140 CoreLocts in the 7Ultra would be doing?Another fellow had a new stainless Tikka in 300 Win Mag,Elite 4200 3.5-10X,for his first bolt action centerfire.Now,I like his choice.The 100 yard groups were on the paper,but at 200...I couldn't see many holes.I guess we feel we still need magnums,even before we learn how to shoot past 100 yards.

GENTLEMEN,
THANK YOU. The various postings have been a ball to read. Almost without exception every posting was insightful and educational. They raised some points I had never thought of, and others I haven't considered in some time. I believe that this thread would be a great help to new comers to our sport. Keep 'em coming, their great.

If I were hunting a trophy bull or trophy buck, wanted to kill one for the book, then I would definately pack one of my magnum rifles, to take advantage of that long shot they always seem to present, they didn't get that big letting some stumbling hunter crawl up on them...

Two ways to kill the really big boys, stumbling onto them by surprise, which is mostly the case although most refer to it as skill,and that's BS...OR catch one moving out at very long range and making the shot..

oh and one more and actually most of the really big monsters are killed this way, and that is on the way out to your hunting grounds and out the pickup window so to speak....truth prevails