Or Ray, as one friend of mine says, "a hardship hunt is one involving manual window's!"

No. I don't need a magnum. I have owned two in my life, a 7mm mag that kicked the crap out of me and my current 264WM. I used the 264 to make the longest shot on a buck I ever took which was 302 yards but so what, my 30-06 could have done it. As I get older, I find myself moving to the "been there, done that" side. I also find myself more interested in the hunt than the shot. Here I disagree with Ray some. If the only shots on trophies come as an accident or at long range then I had better give mine back. If you can't make the shot with a "non-magnum" then I don't take it. I get closer. If I can't get closer, then I let it walk. I know that is a sin to some, But like I say, I'm getting older.

That said, If I was to hunt dangerous game again, a magnum might be in order, but the 450 Marlin would do.

all I know is the 300RUM will put a 180 at 400 where a 243 will put a 100 at 300.

Good chart Eric. I get what you are saying. Since most shots at game are at about 100 yards, the magnums are NOT NECESSARY!! I agree!!!

Ive seen the Trophy kill go both ways. Skilled and stumbled upon. If there were no skill involved then there would be fewer repeat Trophy takers, I guess sometimes simple know how could be construed as skill, but on the other side of the coin there is a lot to what Ray says about the REAL big bucks dont get that way being dumb. The last monster buck I saw shot was done exactly as he described, it was hiding in some thick brush being nice and still and was stumbled upon.. The guy who got it was very suprised!

And no I dont need a magnum.. today. I do like to keep my options open though.

most shots at game are at 100 yards cause most people cant shoot much farther than that.if you learn to use a gun, properly chambered for the task a 350 to 400 yard shot is not that hard.notice where the 180 gr bullet from the RUM hits at 350,3 inches low with the 243,right at 10.with the big 30 all I got to do is hold steady and squeze,with the little 6 you gotta geuss how high to hold and hope the wind aint to bad.
A big buck has most of the advantages,if I can steal 100 more yards then by golly I will.

I like 'em all! I really like the .270 Win and the 30-06. I shoot both a lot. But then I also like my .300 Win Mag and my .338 Win Mag. I dearly love the .375 H&H and think I am going to like the new 17 rimfire round. Oh yea, I am having a real love affair with the 30-30 and cast bullets. Most of us could probably do it all with a .22 rimfire and a good 30-06 but if I am ever limited to that I will probably take up golf.

I bought a 7mm magnum when I lived in Utah, thinking there might be some cross-canyon shooting at some point. Never did any there, but found it useful for shooting in eastern Montana, and kept working on more accurate reloading. I really haven't found a compelling reason to change to another gun, although I've bought a couple more in the intervening 20 years. The trajectory for a 140-grain Nosler is not much different from an 85-grain Nosler from a 6mm-284, and the recoil is not that big an issue.

Tom

Need? I guess it depends more on personality, attitude and hunting area/game. My uncle hunted a big game area in W Alberta for 55 years with a 270 and took over 25 elk and 20 moose with 150 gr bullets. He obviously did not need anything else. I have several magnums, not because I need them but becuse it adds the extra challenge and variety to shooting and handloading that owning one rifle does not have.
That said, for general purpose hunting in the forested areas with a variety of game to be taken, there is nothing whong with a Magnum of 7mm to 228 shooting decent 175 to 225 bullets.

BR

wouldn`t a 6-284 qualify as a magnum.if a 240 weatherby is then the 6-284 is.

The word "magnum" is used for effect.It has a nice ring to it.It has NOTHING to do with performance.

I have a 22 "Magnum".My 22 Hornet shoots it to the ground.I have a 224 Weatherby "Magnum",and it does nothing my 22/250 can't.

Get the drift?Hell,how about the 17 Hornady Rimfire "Magnum"?

I own lots of Magnums,all the way from the 22 Magnum on up to the 378 and 458 Magnum.Are they any more effective on game than a cartridge that doesn't say Magnum on the head stamp?No,mostly because big game hasn't figured out how to read yet.

You think a deer or an elk can really tell the difference between a 30-06 and a 300 WSM?Not much trajectory difference there either.

All this trajectory stuff is a bunch of fluff anyhows.The 30/378 Weatherby Magnum shoots all of about 5 inches flatter at 500 yards than a 300 Weatherby Magnum,and it has to burn nearly 75% more powder to do that.Can you hold within 5 inches on game from an improvised field rest at 500 yards?If you can you're better than me.If you're one of the new waves of "long range hunters" who has target turrets (which BTW I think are great on any gun you plan on pointing at game at long range)on their scopes,that comes out to about,what,four or five more "clicks"?

I have owned them all and shot them all. I started out with a open sighted 30-30, went up to a .308 next. I still have them and still love them, after having killed hundreds of deer sized game with them, hopefully more yet. I hunt mostly animals from Caribou and Elk sized up to the Moose and Brown Bear now, with dreams of Africa someday. I have gone on up to the .257 Wby, .300 Win mag, 7mm STW and 7mm Rem. I consider them medium sized Magnums. I have now gone on up the ladder to .340 Wby, .338 Lapua, .358 STA, and for those dreams the .416 Rem. I love to shoot and do it three days a week, weather permitting. I don't take a shot over 350 yards, however I want something that will smack that trophy, whatever it is on it's Ass in it's tracks when the bullet gets there. I have used the standards on the larger animals and tracked them, even after picture perfect shot placement. I shoot hundreds of rounds with these larger Magnums to get instinctive with their use, and I think I am a better hunter of game because of them and what they can deliver when the bullet gets there. I want something I can aim dead on out to that distance without having to think of holdover, etc. I have not seen and Elk or Moose stand or move when hit with my .340 Wby and a 225 gr. bullet at 3150 fps. The same goes for my .358 STA with a 270 gr. North Fork bullet at 3100 fps. Love the Magnums or hate them, they have their place in the hands of a competent hunter and shooter proficient with their use, on the larger animals and sometimes dangerous game. Africa speaks for itself. Good shooting.

I decided that the magnum vs non magnum issue is a dead horse thats been beat to a frazzle and the fact that the guys who say "the term magnum is meaningless" are right, just makes it that much worse.

I think the real question is how much "velocity" is required to take "X" game animal with "X" caliber.

Ive heard it said that 1000 fs is a bare minimum one would think acceptable for deer and that is quite a debatable blanket statement in itself, but may be somewhere to start.

This whole debate is always going to be better taken up with the specifics laid out.

No Magnum ? Van Zwoll has to visit the doctor
A gunvault without magnums is nothing I would like to have.

I tend to like magnum even when we are talkning bottles

/ JOHAN

Brad,
I have been thinking more about the main topic of this thread, do we NEED a magnum.

In retrospect, I don't, I just like them. And furthermore when push comes to shove, for most of my hunting I take nonmagnums. I took a .300 Win Mag and my just finished BRNO 21, in 7X57, to Africa and used the BRNO on most everything I shot. It has quickly become my rifle of choice and will go to Idaho this fall. The area I hunt on the Middle fork is truly magnum territory and often your shots are pushing and beyond 300 yards. I know the 7X57 will work well there but a magnum would be a better choice. Maybe it is just the first phases of a love affair but I will still take the 7X57.

Chic

its 365 yards to those poles,lazered.I know what my 300RUM will do with a 180 balistic tip right there.thats the only way you can touch a whitetail in that area.so I practice alot at that yardage and have made 2 one shot kills from this spot.

Heya Chic... the one cartridge that I always come back to is the 308 Win... I really can't explain it, other than it does everything very well that is "fairly" asked of it. Too, it's quiet, accurate, works well in carbine-form, is easy to load for and doesn't pound one with a lot of recoil... heck, it hardly recoils at all.

If I had to settle on just one rifle, it'd probably be a 308 Win. Fortunately, I have no such desire to "settle" so I'll continue to experiment!

I suppose I said all that to say, in my limited experience, I'd put the 7x57 in the same category of cartridge as the 308 Win. They work with little fuss.

One of these years I plan to take at least one season to hunt EVERYTHING here in MT with a 308 carbine with a 1x4 on top and ONE load (165 gr)... coyotes and pronghorn to deer and elk... just to make a point.

Brad

I bought a .338 WM a few years ago to take on a Moose hunt in Alaska. I know people who use a .30-06, of which I have two, and have great success with that round up there. I mainly bought it because I thought I would feel more comfortable if I had an encounter with a brown bear. I firgured a 250 grain Speer GS would be a better choice than most anything I could get for the '06. Besides, it's not a bad shooting rifle. I may have to take it to Wyoming antelope hunting this year so it doesn't feel so left out just sitting in the gun safe.

I know Wayne personally and have worked with him on several occasions. He knowledge of elk hunting is excellent and his behaviour in the sticks is that of a seasoned and responsible hunter.

Having said that, I find myself in disagreement with many of his articles. We simply have different preferences. I like heavy long barrelled rifles, he likes lighter arms. I like big cartridges, he prefers the more usual smaller calibres. He likes horses, I do not. Neither of us is right or wrong, just different. We both achieve the same end result with different tools.

My favourite hunting rifle is an pre-64 M70 in .375 H&H....notice I did not say "magnum". By today's standards, this venerable old cartridge really doesn't qualify as a magnum. Just a good old efficient cartridge with great versatility.

The term "magnum" really has little meaning for me. If the cartridge features ballistics that will do the job I require, then I use it. Buying a rifle just because it is a magnum and has received accolades from the gun press community strikes me as a bit foolish.

Could I live without magnums? Certainly. I really don't care what everyone else is shooting. I do hope they are using a cartridge that they can shoot accurately and are not depending on some "magnum hype" to make up for hunting/shooting skill deficiencies.

When I go big game hunting here in the US, I take my 375 H&H and when I want to whack coyotes at long range I take a 378 Weatherby mag. The 378 is more of a toy than anything else.

The proper cartridge for the designated application used with the necessary skill will do the job every time....regardless of what it is called.

Regards to all.

~Holmes

I visited my favorite gun store last year inthe middle of hunting season. I remarked that, with the season being on, sales had probably leveled off. The owner replied that No, sales were booming, All of the new hunters had missed and were now buying 7mm magnums to take the place of thier standard cartridges.
Missing? You must need a bigger gun!

ROSS SPAGRUD:::
I can't believe no one else picked up on your posting about "of course I need a magnum".
Conflict of interest for you to say otherwise, eh?

For those of you interested in custom rifles, you should check out Ross's web site, at www.prairiegunworks.com

CDW

[ 07-23-2002, 03:33: Message edited by: Woodrow ]

Woodrow-Not only did I check out the prairie gun works website-I have two pictures in their hunting album.They built a 300 ultramag for me that shoots 1/2" groups on average and has been hard on our elk and moose population.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Holmes:
The term "magnum" really has little meaning for me. If the cartridge features ballistics that will do the job I require, then I use it.

I don't think I could have said it any better myself. As I recall, the term "Magnum" was created by Holland & Holland to set it's then new 30 caliber cartridge apart from all the other rounds out there, now the term is pretty generic since everyone uses it.

So far I haven't needed a "Magnum". I just try to get closer to whatever I am hunting.

ZM

gotta put a plug in for my 300 wby with muzzle break. Kicks like my .243. Shoots flatter than my 22.250. Has the same energy at 400 yds as a 30-06 at 100 yds. AND when shooting it's favorite load of barnes 180 xbts it has a 4" point blank range to 350 yds. (doesnt get higher than 3.8" on it's way to 300 yds and is only down 3.5" at 350 yds). I like the fact that anywhere inside 350 yds I just put the crosshairs where I want and shoot....and when the bullet lands it has one heck of alot of energy. JUst plain hard to beat!

Hello Dan

You seem to know and like that caliber and configuration but there is a cost.
One problem is having to be considerate of bullet choice. If you run across a thin skinned animal at short range, say 50 yds and have partitions in magazine pass threw is a real possibility.

Very good numbers though

good luck,
Matthew

*laughing* out the window is extremely true!! I shot a huge trophy moose from the huntingareas parkinglot a few years back... (though not from the car... we were actually on our way to track the beast when he presented himself in a most magnificent way... I could not let the opportunity slip out of my hands... he got 286 grains of Norma through the lungs...)
But in the case of magnums or not I guess it�s like averything else.. if it exists I need it.. but not for everything. My most treasured rifle is a 22lr wich I use to dispatch stray cats around the farm. It�s not a magnum but it gets the job done!!

If you can put your bullet where you are aiming then it doesn't matter near as much what you are shooting, within reason of course, no 22's on moose.

I like different calibers for different reasons, I grew shooting a magnum. I like the 270 wby and the 300 wby, one of my favorite deer guns is the little 250 savage. They all get the job done if I do mine. I think that if you have confidence in yourself and your rifle then you've got the perfect gun for you.

Barny

Do I need a magnum --NO

Would I Like one ---YES

I think that if you have good shot placement any reasonable caliber would do. But I also believe in bigger cartidges for bigger game, and believe that a magnum may reduce your margin of error

shoot what you have but do it well.

BigBob; I think that the term "magnum" in firearm terminology is overused, inaccurate, and misleading.
The 22 RFM is hardly "TOO" much cartridge for big game hunting,and the 350 Rem. and the 35 Whelan are close to ballistic twins, but one is a magnum.
Sometimes it describes velocity other times diameter, other times - neither!!
It's our choice to use what we deem as best for our needs/wants. If we were gun writters we probably write about our favorites. Many writters become synonamous with a particular cal.( Keith - the .44 Mag., O'Conner - the .270 Win., ect.). Let the writters write, it's up to us to make "our" choice! -memtb

PS: I couldn't spell s%$# if I stepped in it!!

LOL Ray. I'm reminded of a friend who took his brother in law hunting for the first time, and had to stop the pickup on the way in because of the huge moose standing in the middle of the road. Brother in law leans out the window and "Boom". Of course, that's not the story the brother in law tells. - Dan

I read the G&A article and thought both sides made good points. I own and shoot both a .270 and 30-06 as well as a slew of other non-magnums and enjoy them all. However, I also shoot and enjoy a variety of belted magnums. Those who really need to be shooting a magnum usually know it and know why. As for the rest I think many just like to shoot the big boomers and so what? Right now I am really enjoying working with a .338. I guess I don't really need it but I want it and am shooting it as well as I have ever shot anything. For me that is enough. Now the other day I was in a store looking at a new 7mm Ultra Mag that might be fun and.....

Hey BIGBOB, (a.k.a.BIGBOB3006)
Same debate different site.

Here is something I came across. It is off the Lazzeroni site. Why shoot a Lazzeroni?http://www.lazzeroni.com/ct_why.htm

"In choosing A cartridge, you should not take one that will do the job when everything goes right, you should pick one that will do it when everthing goes wrong." A quote from Geoff Miller, who owns Rigby.

Here is Energy Calc. & a KO calc. you all may be interested in.
http://benchrest.com/sst/energy.html
http://benchrest.com/sst/taylor.html

"MAGNUM" is just a word, there are cartridges equal in power to "MAGNUM" labeled cartridges like 300Dakota and 300winMAG, 7mmremMAG and 7mmSTW and list goes on and on. I think people should start by picking a caliber, then pick the speed to help to narrow down the cartridge that will fit your NEEDS.

NorthernNM (a.k.a.JDT32)