The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Best Long Range CaliberGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Best Long Range Caliber | Login/Join |
| <TomA> |
My vote goes for a 155mm howitzer with an air burst, you can get all of the deer within 100 meters at ranges over 10 miles. Just kidding, I'll stick with my 7mm STW. | ||
|
| one of us |
Todd, Don't go away mad.........you got involved in one of those arguments where the opinions and feeling run pretty hot. I tend to type out a comment, I KNOW the intended tone of the comment, but when printed it doesn't come out the same way. Thats what happens here a lot. You have good comments and something to offer here, so cool off and hope to see you later. Frank N. | |||
|
One of Us |
quote:
| |||
|
| one of us |
Wind can be fairly easy to guestamate, the hard thing to figure in the West across canyon shooting is updraft...We shoot a lot of rock chucks at long range and I have one canyon in the Snake River Canyon that on any given day will raise any bullet two to three feet depending on caliber. We save that one for the more bragadocious shooters, makes'em humble. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
deleted [This message has been edited by ku-dude (edited 10-29-2001).] | |||
|
| one of us |
[This message has been edited by ku-dude (edited 10-29-2001).] | |||
|
| one of us |
The posts on this thread of raised many of the difficulties of long range hunting and shooting. I do not believe that any ethical big game hunters set out to make long range (over three hundred yard) shots on game. However, there are places where three hundred plus yard shots or two hundred and fifty hard shots at smaller than deer/antelope animals are required to fill your bag (and you are paying dearly for the opportunity.) I believe that these long range shots demands a magnum cartridge to keep bullet drop within reason and provide sufficient energy at 400 yds. I believe that of the long range magnums, the 7mm RemMag and 300 Win Mag (and its equivalents) are best choices because the will get the job done with the least amount of recoil and blast. Further, excellent loaded ammo and components are available for both. Most importantly for long distance hunting, my rifles will shoot to less than a MOA with a hunting load that will deliver killing energy for the largest species I am hunting out to 500 yds. These rifles have good optics with which I am familiar. I regularly use a rangefinder for determining exact range, and memorize the ballistic curve for my particular load. I will pass the shot if I do not feel totally comfortable taking it, and I will use sticks, stones, or any other support I can arrange together with a shooting sling for such shots. Wind doping is absolutely critical for shots over two hundred yards if there is more than a 10 mph wind blowing. Therefore, I also remember the deflection data for my load out to 400 yds. Lastly, I practice at ranges from 100 to 450 yards using the loads I will be hunting with and the rifles I will use. This is the acid test. And as I stated above, with all this, if I cannot get comfortable, I don't take the shot. This practice and discipline have paid off, and I have never lost a animal that I have hit. In fact, I have never had to track a animal to bring it to bag. Half of my clean misses have been due to the bullet striking a branch before it reach the animal, and I have had remarkably view of these. I think that the motto for the hunter faced with these conditions has got to be the second most famous line from Dirty Harry, "A man's got to know his limitations." Ku-dude | |||
|
| One of Us |
The point that I only saw mentioned twice is knowing the range. It really doesn't matter how flat your rifle shoots and how steady your squeeze is if you estimate 375 yards and the target is actually at 425 yards. The drop differance over 50 yards once you pass 400 yards is sufficient to turn any hit into a miss or wound. Range judgment in the bush, due to optical illusions and perceptions, is very difficult. Just a thought. | |||
|
| Moderator |
Ray A., That was a good post concerning "updraft". I had to laugh, as it caused me to recall a similar incident where my buddy and I found ourselves "holding on fur" at seemingly ridiculous ranges while shooting rockchucks in a particular canyon of the BigHorns, one year. It took us a while to realize what was happening and we had nearly begun futzing with our scope adjustments when we thought about the presence of updraft. I guess it was roughly creating a 300 yard hold at 400 and by noon, or so, it was gone. We later learned from the "locals" that this spot was well known (by them!) for its' updraft and that it was most pronounced in early June, when things were starting to warm up faster, each morning. | |||
|
| one of us |
BBBruce that why your seeing the ones like me that shoot long ranges use laser range finders mil dot scopes muti cross hair scopes ect to make the long shots no guess work on the range. | |||
|
| One of Us |
quote: Right on! I subscribed to Varmint Hunter mag for a couple of years and really enjoyed it. I plan to go back once I get working again. They had some articles on laser range finders. I have a coincidence optical one but haven't really used it much. When you get out to 400 yards with it the etch marks on the dial are so far apart you're just guessing. Cheers! | |||
|
| <ss8541> |
It seems that some are very opinionated here. I think that people have been very tough on Todd. I personally think that with a laser the wind is the biggest problem, but shots at over 400 yards are not a big deal if you have the ability, and are prepared. I get closer when I can, but that isn't always possible. I learned to stalk and shoot both growing up and in the Marine corps where I was paid to shoot long range with a 308 and a Barrette 50 cal. I have been to surgical shooting courses, high angle shooting courses, and have hit truck size targets well past 2500 yards consistently with a 50 cal. At one time it was ordinary for me to go 10 for 10 in the head of a target (7"x9") using a 308 at 700 yards with wind changing 2 to 3 MOA between shots. That was calling my own wind through a 10 power Unertl scope. If you are prepared and do your homework, shots past 400 are not that difficult as long as you keep your head and stay within your ability. I killed my deer at 412 this year. He was on the run, well, doing the high jump down a steep slide quartering toward me heading for cover after being spooked out of his bed by a sudden shift of the wind. That deer died in mid air. My bullet entered his chest 1.5" lower then I wanted it to. If that deer would have been at 550 the outcome would have been the same. I would have rather had it at 80 yards, but it ended up at 412. I was prepared. I had watched the deer for an hour in his high bed from 425. I was confident that I could have hit him in the back of the head when he lifted it to look around, but I wanted a better shot. I had shot out to 635 yards the week before to double check my drop chart. I was shooting from a bipod with a lot of mirage, and still managed to have 3-shot groups average at 4". From the bipod at 325, where I actually zeroed, my largest 3 shot group out of 4 was 2.2 inches. Under good conditions, like I had when I shot my deer, I can keep them under 2" at 400. I guess the biggest thing is that you have to know your equipment and your limitations. It is possible for people to be capable of taking long shots, as long as they are not long in comparison to their ability, and preparation. We all need to be responsible, but we don't need to label everyone as a heretic if they don't have the same opinion or skill level as our own. Vince | ||
|
one of us |
Ss8541: You are clearly have some form of gift. The problem lies with those once-a-year hunters who have something to prove and do not give a toss about what happen if they get it wrong. And � as I am sure you will agree � there is a lot that can and does go wrong, which is why I preach that it is better not to take unnecessary risks. ------------------ Richard | |||
|
| one of us |
We apparently have some very skilled shooters on this board, beyond description. ------------------ | |||
|
| <R. A. Berry> |
Ray, Agreed. And I am sorry I wasted the time to read about someone shooting a running deer at over 400 yards, that was moving erratically down hill and quartering towards the shooter. That deer was bumping along the X, Y, and Z axes! If true, the shooter's luck was beyond description, not his skill! Forget the wind! Who cares! It's a crap shoot anyway! ------------------ | ||
|
| <Hunter - DownUnder> |
A hot subject.. I think that a responsible shooter will know in their hreat if they should take a 400y shot. It will depend on many factors, wind, knowing the exact distance, how much one needs that animal and if they're willing to risk a wounding, but most importantly knowing ones own limitations. If you are true to yourself and know that you can definately take that shot, then you are responsible for it. I have shot animals here as part of culls at 400y +. Yes the winds were virtually non-existant although not using a range finder, I do know the properties and can guestimate fairly accurately by observing fence lines etc the distance the animal is away. I would not take the shot if I didn't trust myself to make it. We all know that it is possible to miss a creature at 100y if the conditions are extremely adverse, so I don't think that anyone should put a static upper limit on the distance that people should shoot. It depends on too many factors. [This message has been edited by Hunter - DownUnder (edited 10-31-2001).] | ||
|
| <Hunter - DownUnder> |
Oh I reakon a .300 Winchester Mag would be a good calibre for the Deer at that range. Although the 7mm 's in various formats, as well as most cartridges based on the 06 case would be fine. | ||
|
| one of us |
I've shot a lot of deer over the years at long range...One day it dawned on me that most of them zigged when they oughta zagged..and got hit, and I had to do some fancy tracking in those days, mostly again I got lucky most of the time. ------------------ | |||
|
| <Don Martin29> |
Elmer Keith killed a deer at 400 + yards with his .44. He preferred the 4" bbl as I recall. Others could not do it with a magnum rifle. It depends a lot upon the man and the circumstances. | ||
|
| one of us |
test | |||
|
| one of us |
test the water | |||
|
| one of us |
Okay, the water is hot enough, so I'll jump in.... I don't think anyone will argue that many hunters neglect their shooting skills. And those that do generally will pop a cap at any range they spot game at. Everyone will generally agree you can't separate shooting skills from all the other skills needed to be a successful hunter. But now let's touch a nerve. Would it be fair to venture that many distance shooters tend to view the shot as the primary skill involved in the hunt? Understandably, they get very upset when some yahoo goes into the woods and cripples on an easy 100 yd. shot. But they mount the best scope on the bedded action, float the barrel, work up loads, and go to no end of trouble to squeeze the smallest group of of their rifle. Just as understandably, the stalkers get very upset when the shooters cripple at 400 yds because they didn't develop a very basic skill that will make groups even tighter. Stalking. Making the shot shorter will tighten groups out of any firearm and reduce the chance of a cripple. Here's my proposal for everyone. Stalkers and Shooters, get out the lifesize target with marked kill zone and go to the range. Shoot offhand. Shoot offhand braced against a post, shoot sitting. Shoot from hunting positions. Shoot in wind. (Leave the sandbags in the truck! Every year at the range I see guys shoot anywhere from 1.5 to 8 inch groups off bags at 200 yds and confidently claim "I'm good for a 200 yd. shot". Gimme a break.) I say Stalkers have a responsibility to know their shooting limitations. But I also say Shooters, who generally already know their shooting limitations, have a responsibility to know their stalking limitations. I challenge the Shooters to use oportunities when hunting to practice stalking. If you see cows or does and there aren't any good bulls or bucks with them, stalk them anyway. Just to become a better hunter. Then you'll begin to know the limitations of the stalk so when game is spotted and you are confronted with the ethical question-- "Can I make this shot more sure?"-- You'll know whether you can get closer, and how much closer, for a surer shot, or take the one you have. Or pass on it altogether. | |||
|
| one of us |
Steve y I a stalker and shooter I regularly take deer ect with a bow at under 20 yds. I have still hunted yotes and shot them with at handgun at 10 yds. I get pleasure out of getting really up close but also into shooting at real long ranges. One is not better then others just differant. | |||
|
| one of us |
Steve Y I use my own variation of the training method you describe(cardboard cutout of an elk). This is in my opinion the best way to learn to shoot in the field. As far as range finders are concerned I find them useful to learn to estimate range. However I do not use them while hunting... just my preference. An excellent exercise is to go to an area you hunt or similar area(this will work almost anywhere) and pick out an object at unknown distance. Estimate (guess) the distance and write this number down on a pad of paper. Next laser the object for the actual distance and write this number down. Yeah, you'll probably be humbled at first but with regular practice anyone can greatly improve there ranging skills. I think that there is a big difference between what the actual distance of the shot was and what it is claimed to be, especially in mountainous terrain. Hunters mistake the distance walked to downed game or where the game was shot as the actual shot distance. uneven terrain ampliphies this. This is simple vector(triangle in this case) math. The shot(bullet path) was from point A to point C. The hunter has to walk from point A to point B to point C thinking that this is the path the bullet traveled resulting in an error of distance traveled...
| |||
|
| one of us |
Don, I don't think there is a lot of doubt that Elmer got lucky to a great extent, although he shot at long ranges a lot when practicing, with a pistol..But that deer was wounded and he had nothing to loose, it was justified...had not the deer been wounded, then he would not have shot, nor been justified.... One shot from a 44 mag. makes not a long range deer gun..nor does a few long range kills with a rifle, because hunters have a habit of remembering only the good shots, not the misses and wounding shots. ------------------ | |||
|
| <bearguide> |
You're all forgetting the most important aspect of hunting: the excitement leading up to the shot. It's a totally different story when it's real game. Yeah, I know, learn to control the excitement. Still, no hunter can tell me he can control the "buck fever" to the point when they are as calm as at the range shooting at cardboard cut-outs or water jugs. If you don't feel this excitement, you're not a hunter. To stay on topic, I think any of the 300 Mags will do the job well, with premium bullets of 180 or 200 grains. [This message has been edited by bearguide (edited 11-02-2001).] | ||
|
| <Eric Leonard> |
the 300RUM with 180 sierras pushed by RL25 to 3400 is point blank to 350 in a 6 inch circle. | ||
|
| one of us |
Eric, If that were true, there would be no live deer or elk left in this world, You must take into consideration the most important part of the rifle, the last nut behind the stock, if its loose none of them shoot that flat  Paper balistics seldom show up in the hunting fields, and many modern loads are loaded with 90 grs. of Hodgen BS Powder in an oversize case topped off with a counterfiet smart bomb, and the owner doesn't own a chronograph (a lie detector for gun nuts)... ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Hello Todd I mostly hunt sagebrush flats when I can draw a tag and get away; for the most part, I shoot prone off a fanny pack and get similar results to the sandbag at the range. At longish ranges there is almost always plenty of time to prepare. When I have to shoot from sitting or kneeling or can't get directly upwind or downwind, I simply turn down longer shots. There's always tomorrow and I am not too upset by going home skunked anyway; it is always pleasant to get out of town and sleep on a river bluff for a few days. I walked away from a undisturbed band of nice elk last year at about 600 yards, because I could not get closer in that canyon without breaking cover. I got one of them in a meadow ( from sitting ) the next day at 50 yards, and the carrying out was a lot shorter to boot. The last few antelope were at ranges less than 200 yards, and so forth. The longer I hunt, the shorter the shots get. Tom | |||
|
| <Eric Leonard> |
ray,i have a chrony and 10 shots avg 3435 fps with the 180 sierra sbt gameking with a healthy dose of RL25. zeroed dead at 300 and checking it every 50 yards its groups are never over 3 inches high and are right at 3 low at 350 and around 8 low at 400. i have made a lot more luck shots at 50 yards than i have at longer ranges. if wind is no factor i would feel as good with my 25-06.my longest shot on a deer was with it at 445. i dont go hunting for a long shot on purpose but sometimes you got to take what you can get. and i will stand by what i said for deer,you can hold dead on to about 350. and sure everybody gets buck fever,but you have to hold it together for the shot no matter the range. | ||
|
| <Hoghead> |
Sako TRGS chambered in Lazzeroni "Warbird". I also don't think that 400 yds is impossible. I also live in Washington and hunt mulies in the eastern part of the state. the main thing is practice and always have a good rest or pass on the shot. I think that if anyone is trying offhand shots at 400 yds or more, they are a little "touched" if you know what I mean. | ||
|
| <Eric Leonard> |
shot a 190 lbs dressed deer this morning at 18 feet with the 180 balistic tip at 3435 and bullet performance was execelent as the animal feel on contact.i am prepared for the longer shots but these are the ones i like to take. | ||
|
| One of Us |
quote: Hoorayyyyyyyyyyyy 4 your whole post!!! If we gunners don't stop shootin at each other we gonna end up real alone. I hunted with a guy once who bragged that he had an old .300 WM with which he took a deliberate head shot on a walking whitetail doe at 1,200 yards using iron sights. He claimed that he was standing and shooting offhand. I looked at the rifle and the rifling was worn smooth as a baby's bum. I tried and tried to gently get him to admit that not only was the task beyond the rifle, but even identifying a whitetail doe at 1,200 yards without glass was impossible (we were both older than 40 at the time). He stuck to his story. I never once directly called him a liar. Neither did I ever hunt with him again. I lost faith, trust or whatever you call it. I felt that either he was willing to bold face lie to me, or his grip on hunting realities such as range was untrustworthy. But I never ever did him the disservice of calling him a liar to his face or insulting him. I satisfied myself that there was no miscommunication, we both knew and were satisfied with what we'd spoken, then I shut up and left. I still am not convinced that I did right. Maybe I should have been more "honest." But then maybe calling a man's word in his home in front of his wife isn't really proper either. At least by the time I left I was still welcome back. Still am as far as I know. I just didn't want to hunt with him any more. Which in a way is too bad, because he sure knew the country. I tried to use the Golden Rule. I wish I saw more of it here, more often. [This message has been edited by BBBruce (edited 11-15-2001).] | |||
|
| One of Us |
Methinks theres a time and a place for all of these things. I figure if my gun is dialed in real good at 200 yds at the range from a rest then maybe, just maybe that will give me the extra inch of accuracy that I need at whatever range to place my shot in the field without a rest. I like the theory of getting a better shot pattern with the basic skill of stalking but isnt this what makes hunting great? You just dont know what you may be faced with until your there and thats where the fever factor comes into play. In boxing it is a correct maxum that the best form of practice is the actual performing of the event. Its been my observation that this holds true with most all things. | |||
|
| <Dave King> |
Rio12345 The cartridge is not as important as the one would think. More important is the rifle&shooter accuracy, bullet selection, shot placement and willingness to pass on less than optimal presentations. Either the 30-378 or 270 are fine, if you want to buy another rifle the suggested 300WM is a good choice as are many many others. If you don't plan on moving the distance(s) out past 500 yards you can easily use a factory (accurate version) rifle and standard accurate loads. IF you plan to move much past 500 yards then the better (nearly necessary) way is to opt for the larger, longer and higher BC bullets and this may require a faster twist barrel, something generally NOT selectable in a factory rifle. If you check the ballistics programs you'll see that in many cases a HIGH BC heavy bullet will begin to overtake the advantages of the light fast bullet. You'll still need significant energy at whatever distance you shoot but the marginal shot placement sometimes taken at short range is not an option for longrange shooting. I'm curious as to the technique you desire to use. Do you plan to leave the scope sighted to one 'point blank' range and hold-over or do you figure to range the animal and adjust the scope to the determined distance? I'd say that if you're going for the hold-over method a faster flatter cartridge is warranted, if you elect to adjust the scope to the exact distance of the critter then nearly any cartridge will perform well at 400 yards (provided you select the proper placement). Nearly all long range shooters I know adjust the scope for each shot at distance and with rare exception shoot for a double lung hit on non-moving animals. Practice at distance, practice reading the wind and good luck. [This message has been edited by Dave King (edited 11-15-2001).] | ||
|
| <Matt R> |
Todd E, I am with ya man. But there are some arguments that you are never going to win. I also shoot a 338 Lapua and love the long range capability. Althought whenever possible I will stalk my game as close as I can. But with some good judgement (animal position) and the right conditions (weather) I will take the 400-500-600yd shot. I have made them before and if you practice at that range you can kill at that range. Rio12345, That 270 wby of yours with the right bullet will perform just fine out to the range you are looking for. I am knew to this site so I figure I might as well jump into the hottest discussion on the board. Matt [This message has been edited by Matt R (edited 11-15-2001).] | ||
|
| <Len Backus> |
For a discussion of long range hunting techniques try the forum at: | ||
|
| one of us |
Interesting thread. I must say, I feel for Todd and all the abuse he's taken.... Now, in my best Al Gore voice, "I agree with everybody!" Really, I can see both sides to the arguement. The reason I don't think anybody is right or wrong is because I'm guessing people are simply looking at the question from different perspectives based upon their own experiences. To somebody that hunts with slugs in the woods of the East, a 300 yard shot must seem absurdly long. To somebody in the West that's used to knocking off chucks at 450 from sitting position...the thought of hitting an elk at 400 using a big rock as a rest is child's play (under the same conditions). So you don't think me preachy, let me first "confess." I've made some poor judgement calls as far as shooting at long range in the past. The first was about 15 years ago, I flung about 7 rounds at a muley buck and I swear he was laughing at me as he trotted over the hill. The range was later measured at 270 yds. Yes, that was way too far for a 14 year old shooting a 30-30 that was lobbing 170 flat-noses...I thought it was only about 200 yards. What can I say, I was young and stupid. Another time I cleanly missed a large whitetail buck in the brush. It turned out to be a 130 yd shot. I thought it was about 90 yds. Too much error for a 44 Magnum pistol. I make no excuses. I was wrong for taking those shots. Live and learn. I'm more careful now. See a trend here? There is no "magical maximum" range that is ethical. It depends upon the conditions. In the examples I gave above, I was hampered by inadequate equipment (as well as inexperience). But conditions such as wind, time allowed for the shot, movement of the game, etc are just as important. To all of you that say "it is a horrendous sin to shoot at a game animal at more than 400 yards because you can't guarantee you'll hit it cleanly," I ask: Have you never, ever missed? Not once? You have? Really? But I thought you didn't shoot unless you were 100% sure you could make the shot....? The above examples I gave of poor judgement when shooting at distance pale in comparison to some of the misses I've had at close range. The buck appears, he's running, you shoot...you don't lead him enough and you either miss or hit him in the ass. In my opinion, a moving animal at close range is even harder to hit than a stationary animal at long range. Not only do you have to estimate how fast he is moving, but you must also estimate the range exactly. You also must accurately determine the angle of his travel relative to you. A deer strolling along at 7 mph comming from 11 o'clock @ 75 yards requires a much different lead than a deer strolling along at 10 mph comming from 9 o'clock @ 125 yards. But can you accurately tell the difference between the two with your naked eye? But it's OK to shoot because he's less than 400 yards away, right? Yeah, sure. Personally, I'd rather shoot at a stationary animal (assuming little/no wind) at 500 yards with a decent rest, time to put the rangefinder on it, think about it for awhile, etc than take a "spur of the moment" "quick draw" shot at a moving animal through the brush.... Yes, the "quick draw" shots are exciting...when the animal goes down...when they don't you get that sinking feeling of having to look for a blood trail through the brusht the rest of the night.... With most of the long-range shots I've taken there has been plenty of space around the animal (one of the reasons I took the shot in the first place--not much cover with which to sneak up on him) so you at least are pretty sure if you hit him or not before he goes out of site.... Anyway, I guess I'm trying to bring home a bigger point here: When making the decision about whether or not a shot is ethical, range is only one consideration. If it's long range, you must know your capabilities with your rifle, you must be able to accurately estimate the range, there can't be much wind, etc.... But there are plenty of reasons that shots at half that range are even more risky. Too many people take these shots anyway simply because they feel justified in the fact that they're "below their 300 yd maximum" but they are being just as (maybe more) irresponsible than somebody that takes a shot at long range when the conditions are right. That make any sense? Clear as mud? It's late, I tried.... | |||
|
| one of us |
OK, I forgot one gripe:
quote: This seems a bit "over the top" for me. To me, that makes no sense unless you're shooting at midget deer. The vital area of a deer is about 3 times that big. Of an elk? What, 5 times that big? It would make sense if you said "from a bench"--in other words if you can't shoot that well from a bench you'll never be accurate enough in the field. But you say "under field conditions." You mean if "under field conditions" I can only keep my shots in a 5" or 6" or even 8" circle at 400 yards...that I'm going to miss an Elk "under the same field conditions" at that range? What? One of the best things I ever did many years ago was to make a "gong"--a 1.5" thick steel plate, 12" by 12" and practice, practice, practice. A decent whitetail buck in Monatana has a chest much larger than 12X12. When I practice, offhand, sitting, kneeling, prone from all sorts of different ranges, I know that if I make the gong ring I've made a lethal shot. That's on a deer, elk, of course are even much bigger. Can you explain to me why hitting that gong isn't good enough? That I must hit in the center 1/3 of it in order to consider my shot lethal on real game? | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
