I own the 30-378 and the Weatherby .270. I just got my bonus and am looking at different calibers. Any suggestions?

If I had enough I would get the 300 Jarrett, but I am looking more for a gun I could go buy off the shelf.

As I have said many times the better shot you are the better reason not to take the long shots because a good shot will hit but if he is 6" off it can wound..A lousy shot will just miss the whole deer.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Have fun

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
www.slatesafaris.com

I haven't shot one of the Ultra mags so I don't know what they will be able to do. Will an average Sendero shoot under a MOA? I doubt it. I'd rather shoot my old .308 at that distance because I KNOW it is accurate.

The gun you shoot at that distance is the one you practice with and can hit that plate 10 out of 10 times (not 8 out of 10). Not many guns or shooters can do that. Especially in hunting conditions.

Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike the hyper velocity rounds. In fact, a .300 or .338 Ultra mag is on my wish list. But it will wear a match grade barrel so I can take advantage of all of that powder and the high BC bullets.

The only thing worse than letting an animal get away is letting a wounded one get away.... Taking those long shots increases the probability of that happening.

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born on a mountain, raised in a cave, hunting and fishing is all i crave!

If you want to shoot long ranges (800 - 1000 yards) I would suggest a 12 - 13 pound
.338 Lapua with a 250 grain Game King (300 grains if they make one would be better yet or something from Lost River Ballistics). The weight of the rifle is solely to reduce recoil and to allow for a sufficient barrel length (28") and diameter (.900" - 1" at muzzle).

Todd E

Hunting should be separated from shooting. Hunting should be about studying and outwitting your quarry. Not about setting up on a hill and assassinating an animal that was unlucky enough to come within a quarter of a mile. The odds of wounding the animal are just too high at long ranges under hunting conditions.

If you like to shoot long ranges do it at prairie dogs and chucks. Or, try your hand at metallic silhouete shooting. That will teach you how far 400 yards really is.

[This message has been edited by Mike M (edited 10-24-2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike M:
Read Ray's quote - "basically 400 yds is too far to shoot at game". Everyone should tape that to their rifle stock.

Hunting should be separated from shooting. Hunting should be about studying and outwitting your quarry. Not about setting up on a hill and asassinating an animal that was unlucky enough to come within a quarter of a mile. The odds of wounding the animal are just too high at long ranges under hunting conditions.

If you like to shoot long ranges do it at prairie dogs and rockchucks. Or, try your hand at metallic silhouete shooting. That will teach you how far 400 yards really is.

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Well said Mike M.

Hunting is the challenge of closing with the game to make ONE single sure shot 100% of the time. A lot of this is about respect for your quarry.

Nothing personal but a 400 yard shot on live game says to me the hunter lacks the inclination to get closer through either indifference to the quarry or incompetence as a hunter.

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Regards

Richard

[This message has been edited by Deerdogs (edited 10-24-2001).]

Consider in there all the things that effect you, the shooter, such as recoil/muzzle blast.....and then, if you are comfortable, you have the perfect caliber for you to shoot whatever might be your personal longest range.

I will agree also with how most deer get wounded. Most of the wounded deer I see have been shot in the hind quarters or gut at close range by someone who obviously snap shot without aiming! The others by people that could hit the broad side of a barn (shooting from inside). I have a couple of friends that fit the latter description.

Todd E

The abilty to read the wind is the "factor" in this day and time. As long as the batteries hold out i'll make the range.

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born on a mountain, raised in a cave, hunting and fishing is all i crave!

Todd,
You would be amazed at how many pronghorn are taken between 100 and 200 yards.

quote:

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Your right deer are a lot diff then a sage rat they are a lot bigger. Just because some one dosn't have the skill to make the long shots don't complain about us that do.

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PDS and others � I do not think anyone is suggesting that folk who shoot at deer at 400 do not have the skill to hit them and kill them. I have punched paper out to 1200 with a 303 so I know all about the skill involved in long range shooting. I think the sub text is that more and more people are prepared to accept 400 yards as a normal range to shoot deer (NB use of shoot not hunt), and that if they may be considered a weenie if they shoot deer at shorter distances.

The impression I have is that there are a lot of shooters who wait all year for a very short deer hunting season in order to shoot a small amount of deer (maybe 4 or 5?). They shoot tin cans at 400 9 shots out of 10 on the ranges so they think can shoot deer under pressure and field conditions at 400 also.

People go and buy the latest Ultra Magnum � a rifle that has the ability to kill deer way beyond 400 � and they think that because they own a 400 yard rig they suddenly have the skill to be a 400 yard hunter. There is a small margin of error between a dead deer and a wounded deer at those ranges. Like Clint Eastwood said � � A man has got to know his limitations� The constant production of flatter, faster cartridges encourage shooters to push their ability to match the limit or the cartridge. Most shooters simply are not up to it.

There is no right or wrong here. It is a question of whether or not the shooter is prepared to accept the far greater risk of wounding a deer. I personally think that risk is unacceptable. Why?

1. My personal minimum standard is to make one shot kills every time I kill a deer.

2. I would not like to see deer suffer to prove a point or satisfy my ego.

3. Wounded/lost deer invariably get found by someone and provided ammunition for our critics, and we have plenty of them.

4. Shooting into a 4 inch circle at 400 100% of the time under field conditions is beyond my ability. The guy who can look in the mirror and say that he has that ability 100% of the time is an exceptional shot. More power to him.

What I am reasonably good at (and enjoy the challenge of) is seeing a deer 400 yards away and then, by using the wind, cover etc close that gap to 150 or less. It takes skill, patience and practice. That to me is hunting. And this is a world-wide big game hunting forum!

There may also be some cultural differences:- In the UK we have (in effect) a year long season, and within reason I can kill as many deer as I feel inclined. Because there is no pressure to �fill a tag� I am happy to pass up a shot I do not feel inclined to make, and wait for the situation to improve.

I�d agree with the poster who says hunters taking close range snap shots at moving deer wound more deer than the long range man. That is another thing I have a problem with and I will save my comments on that for another time!

Good shooting and Good Hunting

[This message has been edited by Deerdogs (edited 10-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Deerdogs (edited 10-24-2001).]

For those of you who are not familiar with the sport there are 4 types of targets -- Chickens (about the size of a pheasant) 200 meters; Pigs (about the size of a 150 lb wild hog) 300 meters; Turkeys (about the size of a wild turkey) 385 meters; Rams (about the size of a domestic sheep) 500 meters. In a regulation match all these targets are shot offhand.

The rules were: Sporter weight rifles only; Maximum 10 power scope; No scope adjustment after the match began; No"magnum" calibers;
No bipods or shooting sticks; slings were allowed;10 shots at each type of target; target had to fall to be counted as a hit; 2 hours were allowed before the match for sight in and practice; Ranges were "known".

Required shooting positions: Chickens - kneeling; Pigs - offhand; Turkeys - prone;
Rams - sitting.

We had 32 entries. I knew many of them. Many were avid big game hunters, some avid varmit hunters and some were competition shooters. The winning score out of a possible 40 -- 23. The average score -- 14.
Not unusually, some rams were hit but did not go down so let's give each shooter 2 rams bringing the average up to 16. So, out of 1,280 shots fired in anger 512 were hits (just hits -- not necessarilly hits in the vitals) and 768 were clean misses.

Believe me, many self proclaimed marksmen left that match quite humbled by the experience.

[This message has been edited by Mike M (edited 10-25-2001).]

My 30-06 shooting a hunting bullet with a published BC of .49 and muzzle velocity of approximately 2700 fps will drift in an approximately 10 MPH cross wind about 12 inches at 400 meters. This has been determined at the farm. A 338 Lapua shooting a hunting bullet with a publish BC of about .7 and a muzzle velocity of approximately 2950 fps will drift under the same conditions as those of the -06 about 7 inches.

Wind isn't as hard to read as many think and it's as big an influence unless you are shooting long ranges (800+ meters). It is more important to know the range so that your hold over is correct!

A 10 MPH cross wind is a strong breeze.

I think alot of people may be shocked at how many deer and antelope are shot at more than 400 yards. The biggest complaint that I have seen posted so far with long shots is jealously (because you can do it) and the feeling that long shots are somehow unsporting. Lets be perfectly honest shooting anything is not sporting because they is little chance that the animal will get a chance at you (with the possible exception of some Dangerous Game hunting). To those stuck on the sporting angle I say hunt with a bow and arrow or better yet with a spear. These two methods will test your stalking skills to the utmost. As for me I hunt to fill the freezer and will make any shot I have as long as I feel I can make it. That means that any deer unfortunate enough to give me a shot up to 800 meters better have it's life insurance paid up!

Disclaimer: IF YOU ARE GOING TO SHOOT AT LONG RANGE YOU MUST PRACTICE AT LONG RANGE WITH VARYING WIND CONDITIONS AND MUST NOT VARY YOUR LOADS WHEN YOU DO HUNT!

Todd E

i live in the Mountains of southwest Virginia
and hunt mostly varmints. the hardest part of killing ground hogs and coyotes at long range [over400yds] is the wind. no such thing as a 10mph breeze! the wind may be blowing left to right at 10mph where i'm setting but 100, 200, 400 or 800yds the wind will be something else, maybe 20mph blowing striate up or even swirling at 35mph. as long as i can see my target and my batteries hold up range is not a problem but the wind it's a hogs best friend

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born on a mountain, raised in a cave, hunting and fishing is all i crave!

I have visited the part of Virginia you live in many times and can understand the terrain. I grew up in a much more mountainous region (Washington state) and have made many long range shots across canyons (mule deer east side of the Cascades) with great success. That said I do not attempt these shots if it is windy!

ForrestB,

What do you mean I am the reason you do not hunt public land! I have never shot anyone I did not intend on shooting!! The most dangerous hunting I have done is in wooded areas were visibility is limited and there are many hunters making those easy 50 yard or less shots (amazing how many miss those so called easy shots). Many and I mean many times I have heard the bullets whistle by me in the timber and have no idea where the shooter is. When I make a long shot I do make sure that there is a sufficient back stop or that the coast is clear behind the target. Obviously I am much more of a responsible shooter that yourself as you must take shots that you shouldn't.

Todd E

However, screw ups are possible, even likely. The deer I shot with the '06 was walking uphill, apparently covering ground more quickly than I thought. I aimed at the front of the shoulder and hit him in the butt. 2nd shot was a lung shot. On the first shot I failed to allow enough lead for the time it would take the bullet to travel that distance.

At 500 yards that same wind will blow that same bullet 18-20 inches. At 1,000 I've shot matches with 190 Match Kings that effectively required 90-96" of wind drift.

Under match conditions I'm allowed two sighters before shooting a string. Under field conditions you don't get sighters. Can't tell you how many times I've shot a match and wish I had more than two sighters to get the wind dialed in at 600 yards. I've seen the National Long Range HP Champion take as many as 10 shots to get his windage dialed in at 1,000 yards (where they allow unlimited sighters)

I'm a master class highpower shot. On most days I can hold 20 shots in a 12" circle at 600 yards...prone unsupported. Under almost no circumstances would I take a shot on a large game animal past 400 yards and rarely would I take a shot beyond 350. Having worn out a few barrels on guns shooting at 300, 600, and beyond I know what can happen to bullets in the wind.
The hunter who is unwilling/unable to get closer to his game than 400 yards simply doesn't NEED to take that shot. I don't care if you spent $10k on fees and guides, I don't care if its the new world recordbook monster mossyhorns. I've hunted lots of antelope and have passed up on lots of animals because shooting at 400+ yards is using very bad judgement IMO. I hunted in Europe for 3 years. In Germany long shots are considered a sign that you are a very poor hunter--a demonstrable sign that you are lacking in both woodsmanship skills and sporting ethics.

HOW windy does it get in Cleveland?? I hunted yesterday in gusts from 40-70 mph! Think I'm lying, I can send a link to the MT weather site. An ability to dope wind is probably THE most important factor in long range hits or misses. The ability to make consistent kills at 300 or 350 yds doesn't neccassarily carry over to 450 or 500 yds. As the ranges get past 400 things really can turn to manure very easily and very quickly.

When Ray Atkinson and several others here make a statement regarding most anything its not from being an armchair hunter or from memorizing ballistic/drop charts. Its from hard earned experience. I am pretty much the same. I don't reply to posts unless I have some real experience to share. NO theory, just observations drawn from real experience.

I just watched an experienced shooter shoot at a wounded bull elk at ranges from 450 to 600 yds in a moderate and variable wind. Talk about tough! And thats with a .338 mag and 250's. A few hours later when the wind died down a 420 yd hit was made which ended the entire mess.

These long range hunting posts drive me crazy. I couldn't help but reply.

Frank N.

But it's the circumstances that count. I have hit tiny varmints at that range. It's not that hard to do when the wind is very light.

400 yards is a long way. But with a good rifleman, light wind, exact range estimation it can be done.

But conditions are not always that good. In general the advice not to shoot is correct.

It's a border line call. It depends. And best of all it's up to the rifleman and not this committee.

quote:

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Originally posted by Don Martin29:
Military snipers take shots at twice that distance. I know the goal is not exactly the same but it's a point that a hit can be made in the right circumstances.

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Don�t go there Don! Military sniping and long range big game shooting have very little in common.

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Regards

Richard

"Sometimes the 400 yard shot is easier than the 100 yard shot".

As a hunter, one should be ready, willing and able to identify and then capitalize on opportunities that present themselves under favorable conditions, in conjunction with their personal comfort level.

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born on a mountain, raised in a cave, hunting and fishing is all i crave!

Regarding long range shooting I typically only take long shots when the conditions are right. I will not go into what right conditions are because several of you just cannot figure out when to and not to take a shot. In all honesty I seldom need to take a shot at a range over 150 yards. Actually, I don't think I have made a long shot at game since '93. I have though killed elk at approximately 700 yards with one humane shot. Again I only took the shot because I knew I could make it and the conditions were right (hint the wind wasn't in the 40 - 70 MPH category).

Now those of you who said I memorized ballistic charts are correct. I actually am a bunny hugger who has been busy trying to get you guys to make long shots and wound poor defenseless animals to provide ammunition to my fight to ban hunting. I actually don't even know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun (and don't care). I just want hunting to stop so I can ram the critters with my truck!

Some of you guys remind me of the guys I meet at the range shooting off of sand bags and printing their neat little 1 - 1.5 inch groups. They see me shooting off hand with one of my big bores printing those 4 - 5 inch groups (@ 100 yds) and make the statements like:

1.) Not very accurate rifle.
2.) That rifle is too big and your flinching
3.) You not a very good shot
4.) Etc etc etc

Now when deer season come around these guys go hunting. They can print those tight groups off the bench but cannot hit a deer at 100 yards. I know this for a fact as I have gone hunting with some of them. They do pretty well killing ground hogs though as they carry a protable bench with them. HOW PATHETIC!!

I actually think now that I have vented I will bid all of you ultra perfect shooting experts farewell as I don't think we can be friends anymore (since you all have flamed me for stating a matter of fact). Even gonehunting said the the VLD bullets did best. Gonehunting know why, VLD stands for very low drag i.e. very high ballistic coefficient. VLD bullets fly better.

Actually, I would guess that they guys accussing me of being an armchair hunter/shooter are in fact the ones that have not skill or at least greatly ignorant.

Todd E

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Regards

Richard

I don't care if your Carlos Hathcock, at 400 yds you CAN miss enough to wound...Every long shooter I have ever known has wounded more than his share of game, some recovered and some not..I see it every year, thats the real world of hunting, if you doubt that then perhaps your experience is limited or you are darn lucky..

you guess at the range and the wind at muzzle and target, angle of the target matters, up or down trajectory (makes a difference)...Much different than at known ranges at the benchrest. Your field rest is less than good even in stands for the most part. Rangefinders become less effective at longer ranges and a host of other factors are working against you....

Military snipers shoot at men and that allows for 6 ft. of drop and wounding is preferable in combat....A deer is about 6 to 12 inches of deadly zone...

Remember the 1000 yd. deer shoots in Penn., well they had to stop, because they wounded to many animals and most of the shots were more like 500 yds...These guys were the best of shots with the best of gear, bull guns..

Now, this is just one side of the conversation and not designed to rile you long shooters, but it is the way I feel and I am a qualified rifle shot in anybodys book

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com