Amid this raging 7MM vs 30-06 debate, somebody said something that got me to thinking. The 7MM RUM, 7MM WBY, and 7MM Rem Mag all use too much powder to accomplish too little. How about the 7WSM, the .280 REM, or the finest 7MM of all, the one that never took off: The .284 WIN?
Why has this efficient, accurate, short, and sweet round failed?
kinda think in terms of the 308/30-06, 280/7mag. Folks bypassed it as they knew there was something better. That is to say, magnumitis was really rocking and if it didn't have a belt and the name "magnum" hung on it, its chances of survival were slim. At that time, the 7mag was considered to be lightning in a bottle and merely looking at one would knock an animal dead. Folks looking for an all around rifle choose the 30-06 (as they have now for almost 100yrs); folks that wanted something a little different or more potent made the leap to the magnums. Right past the .280/.284/.308. Finally, Winchester kinda treated it like a red-headed step child while they were touting their .300winmag. Like Remington did with the .280 next to their 7mag.
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
"Best" is a relative term. If efficiency was everything then the 7 TCU or 7mm Rem Bench Rest would be the best, as they give among the highest velocity per grain of powder used with any bullet weight. If someone wants the highest velocity, then the 7 STW or RUM and such would get the nod. I haven't seen Geo Metros win any NASCAR races lately, although they certainly are efficient. If you can afford the extra cost and can shoot them well I see no problem with the larger calibers.
Posts: 323 | Location: Keithville, La. USA | Registered: 14 February 2002
Silly me! I thought the best 7mm was the old, obsolete 7X57 - a cartridge that has probably accounted for more game than all the other 7mm cartridges ever made.....
Posts: 258 | Location: Houston, Texas, USA | Registered: 18 March 2002
quote:Originally posted by W. Wilson: "Best" is a relative term. If efficiency was everything then the 7 TCU or 7mm Rem Bench Rest would be the best, as they give among the highest velocity per grain of powder used with any bullet weight. If someone wants the highest velocity, then the 7 STW or RUM and such would get the nod. I haven't seen Geo Metros win any NASCAR races lately, although they certainly are efficient. If you can afford the extra cost and can shoot them well I see no problem with the larger calibers.
Wasn't the .284 winnie originally chambered only in auto-loaders and lever-actions, that alone would limit it's popularity. That hurt the .280 rem. too when it first came out.
I would have to say that the 7mm X 57 is truly hard to beat. Of course the .284 Winchester is a great cartridge. And then there is the .280 Remington, not too shabby either. Then you have all the wildcats.... and magnums.... oh my!
Posts: 614 | Location: Miami, Florida USA | Registered: 02 March 2001
When you figure that most people shoot the 7mm cartridges with 160gr bullets or lighter,with the 150gr and 140gr bullets being the most widely used. The .280 is probably the best 7mm out there. Yes you'll have the occasional 7x57 that is throated longer and the occasional 7-08 with a longer then standard barrel which will come close to the .280.But in the end the .280 hangs above these two rounds in velocity and gives up very little to the 7mag when using 140 to 150 gr bullets. If that isn't good enough,move up to a .280AI and shoot both standard and improved versions. The problem with the 7mmrem mag,is on the average all your doing is using 3to5 grains more powder and your return in velociety isn't that great. Not to mention you have a belted cartridge which reduces brass life.
Posts: 837 | Location: wyoming | Registered: 19 February 2002
You are pretty close to the mark, Mark. A 7 Mag. with 140 gr. will attain 3300 easily with a 24" barrel, some may eclipse that. A smaller cartridge won't make it. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE someday to have a light bolt gun (left handed please, damn they're so hard to find) or single shot in 7x57 or 7mm08. But recently I have had access to a Ruger #1 in 7 STW and just the thought of a 120 gr. X bullet at 3700 fps, again easily attainable in a 26" barrel, gives me goosebumps. And remember, this is in just a 42" long rifle. But you have to give to get, of course, in more powder expended, reduced barrel life, more strain on brass, and more recoil. But hey, this is America, what's wrong with that??????
Posts: 323 | Location: Keithville, La. USA | Registered: 14 February 2002
I've got a stainless M70 in .280 with a 24 inch barrel and with RL19 I can safely reach 3185fps to 3200fps. I've got a M700BDL in 7mag with a 24inch barrel and with both Imr 4831 and RL22 I get from 3250fps to 3278fps.I'm using on average 9 more grains of powder in the 7mag to get that velociety. The 5grain differance between the two that I stated before,was based on the 160gr bullet.
Posts: 837 | Location: wyoming | Registered: 19 February 2002
Nobody has mentioned the banal and universal 7X64 yet? And its flanged version 7X65R? The 7X64 is the most widely used 7 MM caliber in Europe, available in an incredible variety of loads and bullets, and will take anything on this continent except bear. So must be suitable as well in the US... and in Africa for plainsgame.
Posts: 552 | Location: France | Registered: 21 February 2002
Mark, if you want to have an interesting converstaion about the 280 and velocity sometime, call Dave G.
I was in his shop and mentioned when I loaded for a stainless M700 280 (Mountain Rifle, 22" bbl.) I was easily getting 3,200 fps with 139 gr. Hornadys and RL22... I told him I was shocked by that as it didn't show any signs of excessive pressure, but just to be sure, I backed it off to 3,150. He chuckled and told me many of the 280's he's built will run at those velocities, and a few have run WELL OVER that with a 22" bbl! Of course, he thinks the round is the cat's pajama's.
I like the 280 in the LA 7mm category and the 7-08 in the SA. After my experience with the 280, I never saw any point in a 7 Mag... go figure!
Wood and Blued on a Mauser 98, I doubt it gets any better than the 7x57.
Personaly I prefer teh 7mm STW, 3300 fps with 140 grain Partitions in a low pressure load is hard to beat.
Of course the 7X57 has certain advantages, with its rainbow trajectory you don't have to worry if there are trees between you and the game, just lob those 2400 fps loads right over the tree ;-)
Just about everything that I've ever taken with a 7mm rifle has been taken with the 7mm Remington Magnum. I bought my first one almost twenty-five years ago. It's my personal favorite of the 7mm cartridges, partly for sentimental reasons, and I'll probably get another one made up at some point in time. I don't think it's necessarily the best of the 7mm cartridges, but it's surely proven itself all over the world time and time again on almost all classes of game, its widely available, and it won my respect a long time ago.
Any theory that it burns too much powder for what it produces is a misplaced concern. If it burns more powder on a strict efficiency basis that the 7X57, so what? Hunting is expensive, powder is cheap, and the 7mm Rem. Mag. out-performs the 7X57 six ways to Sunday. Guys who worry about that sort of thing need to spend more time planning and executing hunts than worrying about petty issue such as powder "efficiency".
EFFICIENCY = TERMINAL PERFORMANCE
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[This message has been edited by allen day (edited 04-09-2002).]
Aaah, so the .284 dies yet another ignominious death on the Accuratereloading.com big game forum. This fate, even though it practically duplicates 7MM Rem Mag velocities with 20% less powder. Even though it COMPLETELY equals the 280 REM in performance, in a short action that actually FEEDS. Even though it possesses reasonable 1/4 MOA accuracy potential. What is wrong with us? (P.S. I do not own a .284, but I will. It's only a matter of time now.)
The differance between effiecancy in the .280 and 7mag is significant. First off the differance in powder consumption is relevant. Basically it's the same coparison as a 223 to a 22-250. Anyone who has spent any time shooting prairie dogs,knows barrel heat is less with the .223 and barrel life is greater with the .223 then the .22-250. The differance in powder consumption between these two cartridges is 9 to 11 grains,just like the differance between a .280 and 7mag. I'm currently on my second 7mag barrel, the first barrel went to shit at around 2500 rounds. I'm still on my first barrel with the .280 at around 3500 rounds and the rifle still shoots 1-1/4 groups or better. Brass life with the 7mag is around 4 reloadings with full house loads,I'm getting 10 reloadings safely with .280
Posts: 837 | Location: wyoming | Registered: 19 February 2002
It is of my belief that the 7mm Remington Express leaves the .280 in the dust, it is a much more efficient cartridge, and Express sounds COOL! All kidding aside, I've shot lots of .284 caliber rifles and I've owned/ own a few 7 Rem. Mags and I have a 7 WBY mag, I like the long neck of the Weatherby but hate the freebore in my fibermark. Different strokes for different folks. (I've lots of friends who sneer at anything under .30 cal) Celebrate diversity! No...wait...Variety is the spice of life...yea, that's better. Gary
Just to add to what Brad said about the stainless 280 Mountain Rifle doing 3200 with 139's,believe him.I have the same early stainless synthetic,blind mag mountain rifle in a 270. The fellow I bought it from was a chronic record keeper,he was an environmental scientist,maybe that has something to do with it.He gave me load data and targets showing the 140 Hornady BT doing 3200 with a bunch of IMR4831 and a Fed GM210M.If the ancient and inferior 270 can do it, the 280 darn sure can.I launch my 7mm bullets with a 24" 7mmRemMag and they do exactly what W.Wilson says,3300 fps.
The 284 was a grand round, especially in the Sav. 99 and Win. 88 for which it was designed....other than that I think the 280 is just as good and my preference is for the 7x57 and always will be...
I have never been a fan of the 7 mags, as I consider them over rated 270's and my chronograpn pretty well varifies that on the 7mm Rem Mag...
The others are just more hype, more blast; and more recoil than I want to deal with. but I am not saying they don't shoot flat and kill game, they certainly do. I am simply stating why I don't use them.
If I want more gun than a 7x57 or 30-06 I will take the leap to a hot loaded 300 H&H or better yet a 338 win.
Rickdm, Your still shooting factory ammo?? I have no trouble getting 2700 with a 175 gr. Nosler out of my 7x57 and 2960 with a 160 gr. bullet and liberal doses of H414, but I do have a long maganzine and long throat in my Bron mod. 22F (pictured btw on another thread here).
Hey Atkinson, you goofy old fart, What on earth is wrong with an overrated .270? Most everything is overrated, and the .270 is good (and overated) but still good.Many of us (or at least me) dont give a damn what its "rating" is and may in fact download squarley into .270 velocities and have a silly grin on our faces. I bought mine cause I liked the wood, and kept it because of its accuracy. Didn't occur to me that velocity or some other comparison was necessary, so I gleefully set out hunting with it 22 years ago and never looked back. (Well, yes I did--But only sometimes to my .32 special or my Mossburg .308) Geez did I take a razzing for buying that mossburg--I was only 18 then, and didn't know that real hunters didn't-----Chuck
I love my 7mm Rem Mag. I own a 7x57, but it's an old Spanish mauser that I just shoot for fun once in a while. It's mostly to look at. I was sold on the 7mm Rem Mag because I needed a new rifle when I was in college, and the Bi-Mart in Corvallis was out of .30-06, so I took a 7 Mag. The rifle has given me a lot of dead animals, ranging from blacktail deer, bear, and elk to a couple of eland. I am not one to argue with success, so for me, it is a great choice.
The 7mm RM is my preferred rifle, especially with 175 gr. Nosler partitions. Your preferred rifle might be something else. I hope it works as good for you as mine has for me.
I'll say it again. If I had to get rid of all my rifles except one, I would "lovingly" embrace my 7MM Rem Mag. What a great, all-around North American caliber !! Good hunting and bullet placement and shooting to all!!! GREG
I love em all! Give me one of each and I will find a reason for owning each one. I've owned 7-08s, 7-08AI, 7Rem Mags and a 7STW. I never owned a 280 or 7WSM but who knows what the future will bring? There are alot of happy 280 fans out there. sure-shot
Without any doubt my favourite is the .275 Rigby (7x57). I have a superb Rigby Mauser in this calibre have used 7mm projectiles up to 175gn solids. With this rifle and the right bullets I can take any game from Rabbits on up.
RJW
Posts: 71 | Location: Kununurra, Western Australia | Registered: 09 December 2001
