How much would members of this board be willing to pay for a custom rifle that had the following options:

Custom controlled-round-fed action
Tightly chambered barrel with zero headspace
Steel triggerguard and floorplate assembly
CNC inletted stock
Hand checkered
100% dependable
Capable of shooting .25 MOA groups or less
Deliverable within 45 days of reciept of order

Also, what caliber would be your first pick for this custom rifle? Something new and flashy, or tried and true ?

Matt,

What calibers would be availible in this "hypothetical" rifle?

Thanks!!

-Steve

Matt,
I will give you my first born. Of course you will have to pay her tuition through the U of W. I paid one quarter, that is a start. She also has her eye set on a semester or two at a University in South Africa after our trip this June. She doesnt do dishes well, leaves her room messy, runs a lot of gas through my car ....... and those are her good points. Just didn't want you coming back and telling me I didn't tell you all of the pitfalls.

P.S. Her taxidermy bill hasn't been paid for yet.

Anything that you like within reason.

probably 17 Rem.-585 Nyati.

What I'm curious about though, is what would you feel is a reasonable amount of money to pay and what would be your first choice in caliber?

Chic,
After looking at that picture, I'm not going to make any comments that might incremenate me. How old was she before you put the bars on the bedroom windows?

The Dakota 76 is a standard to me. They ask about $3500 for them. Their site indicates that some are in stock and I know where there are two used but like new ones for sale.

I don't think a Dakota will group .25"! In fact my 40X's would strain to meet that! Lets be reasonable and say a 3/4" three shot group from a 7 lb rifle.

Neither does the finish have to be as fine as a Dakota.

Price? I am not going to bite. I can get factory rifles to satisfy me. We are a nation of do it DIY's.

Matt,

If this hypothetical rifle was chambered in practical hunting cartridges AND left-hand configuration, I'd say $1000 or so for the .17-.24 calibers, $1250-$1600 for .25-.35 calibers, and $1600-$4500 for .375-.585.

This is the same niche Kimber of Oregon used to fill.

You'd sell EVERY rifle you made at these prices because they'd be head and shoulders above any production rifles made today.

Certain chamberings have to be priced 'affordably' (.223, .22-250, .270, .30-06, .338, .375) since more of these will sold than other chamberings.

George

Matt,

Probably be interested in a 458 Lott. I would want to spend between 2500.00 and 3000.00.

I might even be talked inot driving to Prineville to save you the shipping charges .

Mauser type action?

-Steve

[ 10-17-2002, 08:04: Message edited by: Steve ]

Price does not matter...........

.25 MOA is not realistic unless this is a pure bench gun, even then I doubt you'd get a promise much less a GAYRONETEE.

45 days is a joke, the folks that can/will do the fine work you are thinking about are booked 9mo-18mo out at a minimum.

There are exceptions, but most folks that can build a fine classic, wood stocked rifle would be reluctant to discuss accuracy below maybe .75 or so. .50 might happen, but again, I'd be surprised if you got a GAYRONETEE.

Call Mr. Gentry or Mr. Miller and offer a 10K bill for a .25 moa hunting rifle in 45 days with the quality you seek, and see what they say.

Good luck, don't hold your breath

JimF

Matt- I grew up in my grandfather's shop- he built Mauser98s in the 40s-early60s. He was getting close to $1k even in the early 60s. I still have a 300Savage he built for me as a HS grad. gift.
I'm ex-military/infantry and prefer well made synthetic military grade. Now days I shoot StyerMannlichers. I have a "M"Pro in 30.06 and a ProHunter in .243. I have about $1500 in both with very good glass on both. They both shoot .5moa.
To answer your question- maybe $1500 but it would have to be as well made and durable as my Styers.
PS> They're both magazine feed- the only way to have it.



[ 10-18-2002, 21:10: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

I guess it would depend on what grade the wood is, and what level the fit and finish is completed. Also, what is the checkering pattern? You also stated the stock would be CNC inletted, I know many 'smiths who take pride in inletting and do not bed actions (and they don't need it), but for a machine inletted stock, I would want it bedded. I bought (traded for) a Dakota 76 with exhibition grade wood a few years ago, the price tag was $2995 brand new with dies and 100 pieces of brass.

I think the .25" group is hyperbole. On any gun built, the 'smith can say "the guns I build are CAPABLE of .25" groups" and whether this comes to fruition on the particular rifle the consumer buys may be a different story.

The majority of the consumers purchasing rifles in the price range, with the custom options you are describing, will be well educated and not be fooled by claims of accuracy. Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying you are not capable of building a .25" rifle but this surely would not be the norm or standard for accuracy.

As far as caliber, I would want a 338 (of basically any design) of course! So without knowing much about them, I would say around $1,500 for a basic model and increase from their with options.

Jim

I would take that rifle in .416 Rigby I reckon it's a great do it all calibre. I would be prepared to pay 3500-4000 AUS for it if I had the money that is. But I own a CZ as there a "poor mans" big bore.

In the latest issue of the American Rifleman the author ? decided to have a custom 25-06 made - good article. Used a 98 action from CZ? - which you can buy separately - came with good bottom metal - a Shaw barrel and a laminated drop in stock from? and a god almighty expensive scope. Now he upgraded the barrel to a stainless spiral fluted thing which elevated the cost from a standard Shaw barrel. His cost table shows both the basic approach and his upgraded option approach - I think the basic cost was something like $800 complete with more resonable priced scope and standard barrel compared to his option loaded approach which cost $1700. He had to do a little final stock work (bolt handle grove) and some bedding. Good article. I'm a little rusty on some of the specifics but maybe some of the board members who may have read this article can provide better details. I will say this - it was a nice looking custom rifle - stainless fluted barrel - blued action and dark laminated stock.

I hate to rain on anybody's parade, but I wouldn't pay anything. I no longer own any wood stocked big game rifles with nice finishes. I've spent too many years knocking around in rough desert sheep ranges, and high desert mulie hangouts to want one.
I've got pretty O/U shotguns for shooting upland birds. And classic lever actions for causal small game hunting. But for serious big game pursuits, I want a stainless/synthetic rifle with a nice flat, painted finnish. Built as tough as anyone knows how. Because sooner, or later, it going to have a serious encounter with some rocks. E

Excluding the stock which can cost more than the gun, you could put together a custom Mauser based rifle in any standard length cartridge for very little. I'm currently having one built for under $1000 with a Bell and Carlson stock, 24" douglas barrel, lapped lugs, action trued and Leupold bases.

I've seen some pretty good semi inletted walnut blanks from $300-600, then you need checkering which is at least $150 for a very plain pattern from a no-name stock builder, finish inletting, glass bed, decent oil finish, you're probably at a minimum of $700-$1000 for a decent semi custom wood stock. I kow you can get some semi inlets for only $100 but if you're going with wood you might as well make it really nice wood.The gun I'm currently having built is in 275 Rigby (7x57) and I'm planning a big bore for the spring. I've currently settled on either a 375 or 416 Taylor based on my current spare Mauser action and the ease of gunsmithing, with a B&C stock should come in around $900-1200 excluding scope. As examples of cost you can get a Shaw barrel chambered and fitted, barrel and action blued, trued action and lugs lapped for $330.00. Pac-nor charges about $390 for the same, Shilen is $550, Montana Rife is $373 for round and $525 for octagonal. All the prices I've shown are for one offs, if you're doing this in production mode your costs should be much less. Bottom line is I'm a pretty average guy, $1000-1500 for a rifle I'm going to hunt with seems ok to me with either a wood or decent synthetic stock.

I already assumed the rifle would have a standard grade of wood and matte finish. Anything beyond that is extraneous to me, and only adds cost without function.

If the actions are manufactured and the stocks are 90% inletted in advance, it shouldn't take more than 45 days to install a barrel, blue, and finish the stockwork.

George

Capable of shooting .25 MOA groups or less

History teaches some of us that there is lots of bullshit there.

You said in a post above that you will do .17 to .585.

Capable of shooting .25 MOA groups or less

Mike

Matt.....for a big-game rifle I think .25" is unrealistic and if achieved is simply a fluke with any hunting bullet. A more realistic statement would be sub-moa with quality factory ammo.

Cost of quality action fitted with a premium barrel and chambered straight (but not "tight") with the bottom metal and a crisp 3 lb trigger (Basix not Jewel...a base price of $1200+ drilled and tap but no sights. Octagonal barrels, strange countours, standing rib sights etc all add to the price. One option I really like is Robar's NP-3 coating of the internals as it really slicks up an action.

The stock is what really begins to vary the price. Wood or fiberglass is the first division and then with wood, what grade and how checkered with the sky the limit.

My suggestion would be to offer the barreled action with 3 basic models...(1) With a McMillan stock of choice, (2) with a standard laminated stock, and (3)a full-blown custom and I would call that one "almost a Darcy".

The skies the limit, It all depends on the smith and what you want and how well you want it done.

If the price is reasonable, I'll take one, but I'll bet you are going to have extreme difficulty making that .25 MOA cutoff in any kind of semi-production rifle.

If I was going to sell it off the shelf, so to speak, I would not try to be a trail blazer and would start production in the most popular calibers, .223, .243(although there are better cartridges such as the 6mm Rem),7mm Mag(STW?), .30-06, .300 WM, and the .375 HH. If you have different size actions, not to forget the .22 LR and .22 Hornet type area.

[ 10-17-2002, 20:31: Message edited by: Gatogordo ]

Man, I'm surprised at the skepticism of obtainable accuracy on this board. You guys have been sure settling for turds. I wouldn't make a claim that a rifle that I produced could guarantee a .25 MOA group, but I wouldn't own it or sell it if it couldn't produce .5 MOA. That's something we've never done and wouldn't start now.
As far as CNC inletting, the reason that we would do this is for the optimum accuracy in fit and finish that can be obtained between the metal and wood. No man's hands can reproduce this that close. It's physically impossible. Even though this in CNC inletted, it would also be glass bedded. In fact, the inletting would be designed to accomodate the glass in strategic locations rather than trying to work with inletting that was designed to hold the action with no glass at all. This stock would not necessarily have to be made from standard wood, fiberglass and laminates could be incorporated as well.
Mike375,
I would be the biggest fool to try to tell someone that I can get .25 MOA out of a bigbore rifle, but read the thread closely, it said "Capable of shooting .25 MOA groups or less." Obviously there are limits to what calibers that these would apply to, but It can be done to any caliber from 17 Rem.- 375H&H. This isn't something new, it's been done for a long time. Besides, I didn't make a claim of guaranteeing the accuracy to that extreme, I simply said that it was obtainable, which it is. We're not talking benchrest accuracy here either. You wouldn't be winning a benchrest competition with .25 MOA.

Triggerguard1,
I'll turn it around on you, and ask what would you be willing to sell such a rifle for. Then we can talk...

Lee

LeeC,
I'm just doing a little investigative work for right now and haven't come to any definite prices yet.
I see a lot of responses as to what you guys would like to pay, but not really what you think a gun of this nature would be worth.

Also, what would be everyones most likely caliber to have that once in a lifetime rifle built on? Something that you could honestly get a lot of use out of.

Matt,

Mine would be a 35 Whelen or a 270 or a 9.3x62. Heck, make it a switch barrel.

Matt, I would would like to see a 300win mag. with at least .308" 10 shoot groups at 300yds. In a great wood stock,with Kelbly bases and rings, with a mag cap.of 5 rounds 26"Krieger barrel with a good brake. with a trigger pull around the 18 to 24 oz range with no creep. and you asked how much am I willing to pay, the last one I had built cost me $2800.00.So lets say about the same.

Doc in Texas

If I were to build a custom rifle, I would ditch the Grade A fancy walnut and deep bluing. I can admire athetics as much as the next man but it is simply a tragedy to scratch something like that and it will get scratched if it goes hunting.

Custom for me means a stainless Montana Rifleman M1999 action, Kreiger #5 stainless fluted crowned at 24", a McMillan "Winchester Supergrade" stock, with all metal work coated by Robar, and a Swarovski 4-16 in Talley rings and bases chambered for one of the following:

.30/06 Springfield
7mm Remington Magnum
.300 Winchester Magnum
.300 Winchester Short Magnum
.338 Winchester Magnum

I probably wouldn't decide which one until the last minute.
As for .25 MOA, I doubt it. As long as it is MOA or better, don't really matter that much for hunting does it?

For the rifle you describe, properly bedded in a proven synthetic stock, I'd pay $1,500.

But I'm not sure I want the rifle you describe. I'm happy when I shoot a .75 MOA group but I write it off as a fluke. When I shoot a .5 MOA group (and I have) I throw the target away to keep it from distracting me. Groups under .75 MOA seem irrelevant in a hunting rifle, so I'm not going to pay more for a rifle that can shoot them. A .25 MOA hunting rifle claim makes me suspicious, but build me a rifle that really does shoot 1 MOA and I'm your man.

Also, let's be careful with the word "custom." Who decides what is a custom action? When I was a kid, I asked my father what the word "custom" meant. He said, "It's what Ford calls the cheapest truck they make." As for me, I'd want an action with an adjustable, non-folding peep sight, a return-to-zero low-mount ring and base system, and a Model 70-type trigger and safety. I also want shoulders inside the magazine box that keep cartridges from riding forward in recoil and bashing up the bullet tips. I know this doesn't hurt accuracy, but it can batter the front of the magazine box and make the rifle unreliable.

The other things you describe are nice, too, as long as the floorplate is either hinged or QD for unloading and maintenance and doesn't flop open under recoil.

100% reliability? Fine. I'll take it, but how does that square with the precision needed to get .25 MOA? I'd love to keep my hunting rifle spotless, but I can't guarantee it, and I'd gladly exchange tiny groups for reliability.

I can get all of these things from a number of decent riflemakers now. The only reason I would buy a factory rifle over one of their rifles is service and a short delivery time. If something goes wrong with a handmade rifle, I pay for the fix, but your rifle would have a good warranty, right?

Anyway, good luck with the new product and keep us posted on how things are going. Okie John.

Unless you do most of the work yourself, it is nearly impossible to build a custom rifle for under $1000, particularly in wood. But if you shop around, you can find excellent part-time or hobby gunsmiths who can do great work for much less than the well-known pros. I have some rifles made by local guys with commercial Mauser actions, shop-made express sights, scope bases and furnishings, English walnut stocks, etc. that are as good as the best and cost me $1500-$2500, materials and labor.

Oh, yeah, caliber. In order of purchase:

1. 30-06
2. 9.3x62
3. 7x57 or 458 Lott.

Okie John

I'm not trying to make a blanket statement about all rifles being turds that won't shoot good groups, but why pay thousands of dollars for one that won't? That just doesn't make any sense to me. I love to see beautiful wood and nice metal work, but if don't shoot well, it's good for a wall hanger and that's about it. As Townsend Whelen once said,"only accurate rifles are interesting."
I will say this, at least you fellows can agree with me on the first caliber....30-06.

I'll start getting some pics posted on here of parts that we have completed so far for this action hopefully tomorrow. See what you guys think.

I guess your definition of good groups needs to be expounded upon, because people hunt with these "wall hangers" as you call them everyday. My Dakota shoots .75-1". I am very satisfied with these groups and would take it anywhere to hunt. Just because a nice custom rifle shoots over .5 MOA doesn't make it, in your words, a wall hanger.

I totally agree that with T. Whelen, that only accurate rifles are interesting. But my definition of "hunting weight accuracy" is sub MOA. For my heavy barrel rifles (both varmint and long range) my accuracy standard increases to your .5 MOA.

I sincerely hope you accomplish your goals, I would really, in all honesty, be the first in line to buy one if you kept the price reasonable.

Keep us updated.

Jim

Matt,

Will you offer this rifle in left-hand? There's a large and eager market out here!

George

triggerguard 1....With respect to accuracy claims, I am assuming you are talking about rifles portable enough to be carried all day and that means 7.5 lbs for the smaller ones and maybe 8.5 pounds for the bigger ones (before sights etc) as I really don't care how accurate it is if it weights 10 to 11 pounds.

Chambering the first ones for the 30/06 would, in my opinion, be a waste of time. Shooters who will pay for a "working" custom rifle will want performance and versatility.

#1) 300 WinMag
#2) 7mm RemMag
#3) 338 WinMag
#4) 375 H&H
#5) 416 RemMag
#6) 458 Lott

But in reality you will need to let the customer decide. Lay in a supply of barrels in these diameters and buy some reamers 'cuz you know folks will want a 280AI or a 338/06 or a 416 Taylor etc.

Matt,

Interesting question! I think a rifle like you describe would be worth $2000-$2500. You might be well advised to sell a few "loss leaders" so you can get word-of-mouth advertising going. But you did not ask me for business advice! So----even though I tend to like cartridges that not everyone has--if I were going to do this, then I would want a 30-06 and either a 375 H&H or a 416 Rem. Good thread--and yes, there are a few cynics about! The original title says "how much is too much?" Hard question given a great amount of variation in disposable income---but this country boy says anything over $4000 is too much. I guess I'll never own a "fine" bolt gun!

[ 10-18-2002, 02:49: Message edited by: ACRecurve ]

Matt

Shooters who will pay for a "working" custom rifle will want performance and versatility.
#0) 270 Win Imp
#1) 300 WbyMag
#2) 280 Rem Imp
#3) 340 WbyMag
#4) 375-404
#5) 416 Rigby
#6) 450 Rigby
#7) 500 Jeffery

Let the customer decide
Keep a supply of barrels in normal calibers and fill the reamer rack. Stainless or blue. Button or Cut.

Option of buying barreled action, action or different stock options. I like options.

How are thing going with the action ? ready
/ JOHAN

ACRecurve, glad to see someone nailed the questions, thanks.
DB Bill,
So, what you're telling me is that the 30-06 is not a versatile performance cartridge? Surely you gest. I think well over a million shooters might disagree with you on that one. I don't believe there has ever been a cartridge more versatile than the 30-06. It's not that I'm forcing the cartridge on anyone, because in order for a rifle to be a true custom, one must pick the caliber that they choose, not have it picked for them. There just happen to be couple of folks who had that first on their list, probably where it would have been for me as well.

Johan,
We're plugging along with the action, but recent demands placed on us from USRAC has caused us to divert our attention to production of triggerguards rather than action R&D. Not to mention, the fellow that I had lined up to do some CNC lathe work for me has priced himself out of the market, so I'm looking to aquire the equipment myself. This will take longer than I originally anticpated, but I intended on doing it anyway. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'll see if I can post some pics of completed parts tomorrow so you guys can see what we've got so far. The biggest hold-up will be the bolt for us, seeing how we don't have CNC lathes anymore. Hopefully I can soon remedy that. We've got some other exciting products that I'll be introducing on this site in the next couple of months that the gunsmiths and hobbiest should really appreciate.
I'm glad to see that this thread has taken off as well as it has. Nothing like talking about custom rifles to get a bunch gun nuts fired up ehh.

Well, a .30-06 may be too mundane for some on this board, but, subject to some semblance of a reasonable price,(I'll supply the wood)put me down for the first one that rolls off your line that will shoot 1/2 MOA or less.

Most I've ever paid for a rifle was $1600, and that was for a much used match rifle. It's superbly accurate, and the smith charges about $3000 for similar rifles today. I couldn't go with the $3K, but luck was with me and I found the good used one with a couple of extra barrels.

For a hunting rifle? I don't really know... Most of my hunting rifles are pretty much standard rifles from Remington & Marlin. Don't think any of them cost over $500, and the 7mm Rem mag Sendero will shoot three shots under .5" pretty consistently. Scary accuracy with that kind of round! I'd limit myself to $1500 - $2000 for a real nice, accurate and reliable custom hunting rifle. Regards, Guy

I'll pony up for this exercise, we settle on a price, you deliver in 45 days, and I'll let everyone know the true story..Lets rip....I'll even make it easy 270, 300win either one..

Lee

[ 10-18-2002, 08:08: Message edited by: LeeC ]