Matt:

Since you are on a fact finding mission, I'll put in my two-cents worth. Prices are a range.

Custom controlled-round-fed action (given your accuracy statement, I assume all of the normal accuracy tricks) - $450 to $650, average $550.00 without bottom metal, as it is priced below.

Tightly chambered barrel with zero headspace - (On a hunting rifle, I want a tighter than average chamber, but I don't want a minimum chamber) - $275 to $375, average $325.00 for Walther, Krieger, Obermeyer, or comparable.

Steel triggerguard and floorplate assembly - $150 to $300, average $225

CNC inletted stock - I'll assume something comparable to a new Dakota as a minimum standard of finish, including the chckering. (Hand checkered) - $400 to $3500, weighted average $1,500. it depends on wood and workmanship.

Bluing, trigger, etc. - $350

100% dependable - All custom rifles should be.

I'll be happy with it consistently being capable of shooting .75 MOA 5-shot groups or less, as that is more than accurate enough for game at any sane distance, and is believable and realistic. Most shooters can not even hold .25 MOA.

Deliverable within 45 days of reciept of order

Total price based on averages: $2,950.00 or about the same as a Dakota

Also, what caliber?

In order of my perception of overall sales appeal.

.280 Remington
.375 H&H
.338 Winchester
.416 Rigby
.300 Winchester
.458 Lott
.270 Winchester

Lots of folks in this market sell at about 2000-3000. If you can beat this price, and do what you say, it will sell. Keep us posted. We might just be part of your start up customers. "D"

Matt.....I would be foolish to say the 30/06 isn't a versatile performer but think of it this way.....if you put two custom rifles on the table that were identical in every way except one was a 30/06 and the other was a 300 WinMag, and then you told, let's say 1000 shooters, they could have their pick, how many do you think would take the 30/06 over the 300 WinMag?

DB Bill,
I think I would look at the amount of ammunition that is sold every year to determine what the more likely pick would be, but I still think you'd see more 06 buyers than 300 Mags. But again, this is just my opinion. I suppose I don't blend in with todays trends of super fast magnums. To tell you truth, I wouldn't own 300 Wincester Mag if you gave it to me. I know plenty of people who love them, but I'm not among that crowd. I've never seen anything on this continent that I ever needed that cartridge for. I've killed elk, mule deer, black bear, black-tail deer, coyotes, porcupines, and couple of grouse. None of which ever needed more than one round. Not to say that I didn't put one or sometimes two more down range for insurance, but after the smoke cleared, it was a waste of ammo. I physically lack the ability to shoot a magnum rifle with the degree of accuracy that I can obtain with the lesser cartridges. I've only met a couple of people who could, as much as I hear about all the dead eyes with magnum cartridges, I find most of them are full of a lot of hot air. They seem to be the same crowd that doubles their estimated range on kills in the field too. I'm sure there are some folks out their who can accurately shoot a heavy recoiling rifle consistently, and to those who can, you have my deepest respect, but I don't subject myself to cruel and unusual punishment to ad another couple hundred feet a second on to a cartridge that doesn't need it.

lound-n-boomer,
When I mention a custom action, I'm talking about the one that we will be producing as mentioned on a thread in gunsmithing a few weeks ago. The cost of the action ranges in price from $825.00-$975.00. I don't think you're going to find a custom or customized action for an average of $550.00. That's about what you'd have to lay down for a out-of-the-box Winchester or Remington before it was turned into a real rifle.
Your prices for bottom metal must be based on dealer prices I'm assuming. We've got the lowest prices in the business, and our bottom metal retail prices are around $200.00, our competition being almost twice that. But, all and all, you're pretty close to what the realistic numbers that are out their are.
My question is, what are looking for in a custom rifle buying experience? Is it quick turnaround with great customer service? Uniqueness in product? What is that just wins you over on determining who you want to build your next rifle? Would being able to come into my facility and push the button on my CNC machine that produced your action right before your eyes, or perhaps being able to watch the entire process take place and picking out each and every part that you wanted specifically used on your rifle be enticing? These are the services that we are planning on offering. We want to do this because we know that buying a rifle is as personal as you can get for an avid sportsman. It's something that you never forget and should always cherish. Granted, we know that not everyone who would buy one of our rifles could have the opportunity to tour the facility like I mentioned, but for those who can, it would be made available.

Matt:

I would assume that your action at $875 to $975 includes bottom metal and trigger, which I had as extra items, so we are in agreement on the action cost.

What I personnally look for in a custom rifle buying experience is in order of importance:

1) Quality of product and the maker's pride in craftsmanship.

2) A personnal like for the man or woman doing the work.

3) Uniqueness in product.

4) Picking out each and every part that will specifically be used on my rifle.

5) Being able to watch the entire process take place, either in person or by photos taken at each significant step in the process.

6) Good turnaround (under four months)with great customer service?

In fact, while I don't own many guns, the custom ones that I do own and have kept were either built for me, or I kept because I got to know the maker. The decision to either keep the gun, or who to have build it was made based on the above criterea. For me personally, it may stem from my dad having a close friend by the name of Bill Phillips, who was a gunsmith in Denver in the 1950's and 1960's. I remember playing as a kid, with a pile of cast-off gun parts on the floor of Bill's shop while he and my dad visited.

[ 10-18-2002, 22:50: Message edited by: loud-n-boomer ]

Matt,
I'll throw in my .02, and I'm little strange, so take it for what it's worth. Superb balance and handling characteristics are what I look for first. The Sendero's and Jarrett's long range super rifles are fine hunting from a stand, but I can't see toting one all over creation hunting sheep or snap shooting a whitetail busting from cover. A rifle that handles like an extension of yourself is much more important than the difference between a MOA rifle and a rifle that shoots .5 MOA to me. A really reliable and tuned CRF action with a good barrel that puts the first shot from a cold barrel in the same place each and every time is more important to me than shooting tiny groups. After all it's the first shot that really counts, right?

After the mechanical and handling aspects, it would be nice to see a classic style stock (with maybe a shallow shadow line cheekpiece)that has good wood to metal fit. Sounds like I'm describing a Dakota? Pretty much, but believe that the Dakota's are overpriced and have factory rifles with lots of work done to them that make them every bit as nice as a Dakota for less.

Well...I don't know about the super accuracy you want. For me a custom hunting gun does not have to be "super" accurate, but at least able to place 3 bullets somewhere around 1" at 100 yards without much effort.

My dream custom rifle would be a reliable "hunting" gun that would always produce nearly the same POI from a 3-shot group, well balanced, with a synthetic stock, and finished to resist corrosion. It would also hold four rounds in the magazine, and a reliable CRF (DG) worked action.

This rifle would be a D'Arcy Echols (Classic), with Winchester Model 70 receiver and bolt to begin with, worked to D'Arcy's specifications. It would be priced somewhere around $6,000, plus a low-power Leupold Vary-X III scope, mounted and held in place by D'Arcy's base/rings.

My choice of caliber would be a .338 Winchester Magnum, which is in fact one of the most popular cartridges in Alaska along the .30-06. That would be my dream "working" rifle.

Matt,
I think I would like to see a rifle with two or three trim levels.
An entry level gun with a synthetic or laminated stock, blind box magazine, no checkering and a mid-level scope while having the zero headspace tight chabered barrel and custom adjustable trigger. Calibers? the usual assortment of standard and magnum rounds. Add 9.3x62, 358 Winchester, 35 Whelen and 338-06 to give me the option to get a caliber that is a little unique. I would pay around $1500 for that rifle.
Add a higher trim level and let the customers add options like a nice wood stock, steel floorplate, checkering, better scope, custom or rare chamberings etc. and charge accordingly.

ZM

That's a great looking rifle!

But D'Arcy only uses the bolt and receiver from a Model 70 Classic, and these he modifies and replaces some of the parts with parts of his own design. The trigger mechanism is modified, and even the magazine he uses is designed to hold four Magnum rounds. The work he accomplishes on each rifle consists of 82 individual steps and modifications. Even the scope mounts and rings are of his own design. The result is a perfectly working rifle for extreme cold weather to hot weather, or DG hunting.

I would not mind paying $6,000 if I had the money, specially if I would be a "one gun hunter." I only have on big game rifle since that's all I need in Alaska, but it only cost me $399.00. Yes, I am cheap too.

Matt...I'm sure your're right about the 30/06 but I think you are looking at the wrong survey as I think you need to check out what calibers are being requested for rifles being made by some of the other "semi-custom" 'smiths out there.

Who will be the bulk of your customers? Not the guys who are happy with an off-the-shelf rifle nor will it be the fellow who will spend $6,000 for a rifle from Kenny or Darcy or $12,000 from David.....you are, I think, looking at the hunter who wants to step up a bit in quality and performance and who might sell off a couple of three factory rifles to pay for a new one from you.

But I've been wrong before.

The million dollar question is this: How can you sell your rifle for the lowest price to the most people?

triggerguard,

It may just be wishfull thinking on my part, but I'm thinking somewhere in the $1250-$2000 price range.

If you start going higher than that, then you'll be approaching the Dakota, Gentry, Miller, D'Arcy Echols level of pricing. While those rifles are worth the money, it's too much for some of us right now. Besides, that market niche is already filled by those companies.

Your really going to need to offer different levels of 'custom' rifles. I'd settle for a rifle that is the equal of what 'should' be coming out of the big manafactures 'Custom Shops'. That's a basic, but well-tuned action, a nice fitting stock, and some decent iron sights (NECG comes to mind.) That would be my $1250-$1500 rifle. Start adding deep mag wells, fancy wood, quarter ribs, and you'll price me out of your market.

Stainless rifles would be a huge plus!!!

About the left-handed actions... It's just my opinion, but if your going to do them (and I hope you do!), start with the big bores. Why? Because quite frankly I've never been too worried about being charged by a deer, pronghorn, squirrel, etc. No huge need for a lefty rifle with that sort of game. But when facing bears and someday hopefully African game, I want the bolt handle on the correct side.

Calibers is a huge subject. .458 caliber is easy, chamber the 458 Lott, and you've covered two cartridges.

.375 caliber is too obvious to mention further.

.416 caliber is the tough one! I'd build Rigby's and Hoffmans. The Remington version will shoot in the Hoffman chamber. No need for the Taylor (and I love that cartridge myself) if you build the actions the correct size to begin with.

.338 caliber, 338 Win Mag, 338RUM, and maybe the Laupa version.

Good luck in your venture.

Matt,

I think you need to define you market and your own goals.

If I had all the machinery and abilities to make the actions and rifles, I would look to what Weatherby has done.

When it comes to bigger dollar rifles I think that Wby is so far ahead in sales that there is no comparison. Perhaps Sako, although in Australia Sakos are far cheaper than Weatherbys and are just above Rem 700 and Model 70 pricing. I don't what happens with Sakos in the USA

But lets for moment consider a few things about Weatherby.

Firstly is the pricing. Lets say that across the board it is twice the Model 70. However if we take the rifle they started with, the Deluxe, it would be about 3 times higher than Model 70. This puts it within striking distance of the bloke who can afford more than the Model 70 but without it being into another galaxy or world.

Secondly is the finish. A Wby is quite well finished and a good lookng gun. The action does not really lend itself to being "fininished off" much better. In short, the rifle is a good package. In a gun shop, the action feels super smooth and the action looks both good and impressive.

Thirdly, the Wby offers a family of rifles and shooters just love families of rifles and calibers. A man can buy a 300 Wby and know the 416 is a only writing a check away.

I think if you followed Weatherby's trail but using a bigger version of the Model 70, then you would be on the right track.

My belief is that there is a huge untapped market for a rifle that matches the Weatherbys, but with traditional action etc. I would bet that there are many people who would like a rifle (or rifles) with more "pizzaz" than comes with Rem, Winchester and Ruger, but Weatherby is not their style.

Mike

[ 10-21-2002, 08:07: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Sooooo Matt,

What did you glean from all this free advice? Oh yes, when is production to start---and where do we place our orders?

Good Hunting,

Matt,

I have paid up to $4,500 for custom rifles in the past, but I have to admit that I think $2,000 to $2,500 should buy a reliable hunting rifle.

I would not want a zero headspace rifle with a too tight chamber to go hunting.

I shoot one-shot groups on game; I am more interested in one accurate shot in the proper place than a precise three-shot or whatever number group. My requirement is for a stable point of impact.

I am mostly hunting Africa now, so I would like this beauty to be stocked in walnut (laminate OK) with a matte blue-steel finish. On the far side of 60 now as well, I would set this rifle up with scope mounts only -- no iron sights. I would get a .375 H&H.

jim dodd