quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Considering the total U.S. population, which grew from 203,211,926 in 1970 to 331,449,281 in 2020, hunter numbers have fallen significantly as a percentage of the population.

Honestly, that is more than likely due to the urbanization of American society as well. Most people WANT a McDonald's drive through rather than want to hunt for some food.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Yes, yes I do.

Honestly, I wish everyone hunted something.

quote:

Rocky Mountain's population rose from 4,139,000 in 1958 to 12,547,416 in 2020, for a net gain of 8,408,416

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Yes, yes I do.

Honestly, I wish everyone hunted something.

For that to be possible, you would have to spread hunting out much more than it is now. Not to be flip, but housewives could hunt rabbits, businessmen in the city could hunt pigeons, kids could hunt invasive birds such as starlings, etc. With the total population of deer, elk and antelope in the US being less than 50 million it would be impossible for everyone to hunt them.

But that is not the current direction of hunting. If you ignore overall hunter numbers, and look at the different types of hunting the picture becomes more clear. The overall number of individuals who hunt may have increased or decreased by a small amount over the past half century, but there has been a shift away from small game and there are more hunters targeting big game than ever before.

Also, it may seem like the finger is being pointed at out of state hunters, but the issue is far bigger than that. Most states cap out of state licenses at something like 10%, so it is obvious that they can only be a small part of the problem.

A likely larger reason for the increase of hunters in western states is the population increase that the western states are currently seeing. And the people moving from Michigan to Montana, or California to Wyoming are "not doing it for the nightlife". Matt Rinella and myself are part of that problem. Yes, he and I are the assholes, not you out of state hunters who make a trip out every couple of years. When I moved to Wyoming ten years ago, hunting was the main motivation. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

In fact the Rocky Mountain states have seen a population increase that is double the increase the the rest of the US has seen in the past 50 years. When you look at the numbers it's not hard to guess why old timers lament the hunting in the "good old days":

quote:

Rocky Mountain's population rose from 4,139,000 in 1958 to 12,547,416 in 2020, for a net gain of 8,408,416

Do three times as many residents have an impact on wildlife? And it's not just hunting, much of the prime wintering range is now populated by humans.

The population growth shows no sign of slowing. Habitat and access is continuing to shrink. There are more people but less available habitat. Unless there is a correction in the population growth, it is clear that hunting is most likely in its twilight.

As far as R3, the real question as I see it is will increasing the number of individuals who hunt prolong the viability of hunting? On the surface it would seem that would be the case. But my question is this: how far can you degrade the quality of hunting before it implodes on itself?

There are no easy answers, but I'm damn glad that we are having the discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
From USFW: Total licenses, tags, permits and stamps

1970-22,183,857
2003-34,673,422
2021-38,590,862

These figures may be somewhat clouded with the evolving sophistication of the individual states in their offerings but the trend is very clear. We are being spoon fed a narrative that is false.
Does anyone think a business person with the acumen of Johnny Morris would put together the deals he has with a shrinking market? That is just preposterous.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
What are those numbers compared to population growth.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
From USFW: Total licenses, tags, permits and stamps

1970-22,183,857
2003-34,673,422
2021-38,590,862

These figures may be somewhat clouded with the evolving sophistication of the individual states in their offerings but the trend is very clear. We are being spoon fed a narrative that is false.
Does anyone think a business person with the acumen of Johnny Morris would put together the deals he has with a shrinking market? That is just preposterous.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
What are those numbers compared to population growth.

That does not really matter as habitat did increase proportional to population growth either. In fact…it did not grow at at all as it is a finite resource.

quote:

The number of hunting license sold is really irrelevant unless you can do a comparative analysis on a per acre basis.... We don't need fewer hunters.... we need fewer people...

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
First, while I do not dispute the fact public land hunting sees more hunters than quality experience. The indisputable fact is hunter numbers and hunting dollars funding game departments and conservation is dwindling. There is some disingenuousness of those, mostly in staters like Matt Rinella, who complain of too many hunters. We cannot have too many hunters. Out of staters, bring in the money to Western game departments. Out of Staters pay a huge tax, markup to hunt that helps keep the price of hunting down for In Staters. Therefore, I reject the propositions that hunting being publicized is determinate because it 1) prices out hunting to In Staters, and 2) publicizing hunting dilutes public land hunting.

Second, I have no issue with State Game Departments sponsoring a person publicizing hunting. So long as, that person is not given special preference in draws that are regulated to be random. Should such relationships be disclosed up front by the person engaging in media. Yes, but is it on its face damning. The answer is no. If I wanted to know about hunting in Arizona, than seeking someone speak who has that relationship with Arizona Fish and Wildfire is who I want to go listen to and read. Again, the funding source for the North American Conservation Model is dying on the vine as old hunters are phasing out and new hunters are not there to buy licenses. I saw bravo to Arizona for engaging in new media to influence people to hunt and spend money hunting in Arizona. The this guy has a professional relationship with this State Fish and Wildlife. Therefore, this person is a problem is a red hearing and conclusion disguised as analyst.

Third, do we have a problem with hunting based entertainment. Yes, I have spoken about it numerously here. The problem is grounded in bad ethic, in articulation of hunting to the point of being disrespectful to the kill and a general audience. The best example I can give of this is Ted Nugget and Pig Man Brian whatever his last name is. Nugget and Pigman did the first televised helicopter cull of pigs on tv. In the promotional material for the cull on Sportman’s Channel. Nugget is filmed saying, “This is not fair chase.” In a whinny voice. He turns his head with a crooked camera shot, so the camera is demonstrating a visual clue of edginess and says FXXX You1” Pig Man looks into the camera open mouth and starts bobbing his head up and down in agreement.

What a wasted opportunity to explain that yes this is not a hunt, but a cull. That the rules of fair chase and what those rules are were being suspended to deal with a feral species that not only in the generalized abstract causes harm, but what specific harm to the properties the air gunning was covering, and how that air gunning was going to offset property damage cost to the landowners. Instead, we get sophomoric low hanging fruit for anti hunters to attack hunting. We get to foolish acting persons who non-hunters or those who may be thinking about hunting seeing unadulterated disrespect and male ego driven vulgarity. The result being those who see such behavior as a reason not to engage in hunting.

THe next best example are the young women in string bikinis hunting and fishing. I know a lot of us like to see beautiful women land as much of them as possible. However, this blatant sexualization for commercial gain with hunting and fishing as the vehicle is harmful to the image of hunting. Again, is just speaks to disrespect for what one is doing. As I tell my wife from time to time when she goes hunting, fishing, and shooting, “Wear sensible shoes.’

Fourth, I find the attack on those who go on guided hunts to be very petty. The “pay to go on ranches to hunt is not hunting.” Yes, Matt it is. Firs, the author does not identify rather he is talking about high fence, human breed and human feed operations where one is killing livestock in a pen, a high fence operation where game is looked after, but allowed the space and independence in food, breeding, and death. Can fair chase, hunting be conducted on high fence operation. The answer is yes. The fact State Fish and Wildlife departments and the hunting conservation “clubs” or organizations struggle to define the two extremes does not change that. The fact is species have been saved from extinction because of those species were ranched with the business model of we have land, bring them here, we will breed and expand them with an ability to pay for it and make a profit through selling opportunity to hunt them in Texas, Europe, and South Africa. I do not support, strongly condemn put and take hunting where a species is hand feed, breed in a lot, and placed in an area of whatever size just prior to the shooter’s arrival.

All game must be managed and managed professionally. Rather that game be an elk in some drainage dropping to 8,0000 feet above sea level from a 10,000 feet above sea level piece of public land in Wyoming, a deer herd (more like a deer family unit that is part of a state wide herd) that lives on a big agriculture rotating crop farm in the mid west, or a elk herd on a piece of private in Colorado. The ability of that cattle rancher to sell hunts or license the land to an outfitter who sells hunts keeps those elk there, just like hunting lions in the Selous Game Reserve kept all the other animals there. One is not more hunting than the other. The experience is just different. Matt Renila used to be a state employed game biologist. He still may be. He knows this.

However, to broad stroke all “Ranch Hunting that the hunter pays for the privilege of being there” is intellectual laziness.

Finally, why do I post. I post to share the hunting experience with those who enjoy it, those who may want to do that, and those who may read of it, and with hope say, “Now, that sounds like a fun time to me.” I do not know exactly how I became enamored with hunting. I was raised rural. We had livestock we sold commercially and killed for our own consumption. My father grew up poor. There was no big game hunting in Kentucky. He did Deer Hunt in Michigan. When he grew up squirrels, groundhogs, rabbits, were supplemental. I grew up that as a life style. However, I strongly wanted to hunt and hunt far and different things for the sake of hunting. I cannot say which one made that a desire of my soul, but the writings and films of Courtney Fredric Selous; President Roosevelt; Ernest Hemingway; names of Bell, Hunter, Finch Hutton that I would see in writings and film before I read their works; Stewart Granger; and Craig Boddington all caught me at an early age were the collectively the source of the wellspring.

My Conclusion is this. Our posting, our hunting, is not and cannot be our own. We must share hunting positively and with a ethic, so someone else will come along and say, “I want to do that.” Just like early humans left cave paintings to the hunt to remember and tell stories, no doubt lighting something that can only be felt but not described in humans, in the next generation of hunters gathered around the fire “hearing that voice inside them.” I cannot wait tell I get to do this.” Hunting, like food, as a human endeavor is not and never was about survival alone. Hunting is about a community. Hunters with social media are at a cross roads of how and what type of communion are we going to present. However, not presenting a communion is not an option. Such never was.

This author’s article just smacks of sour grapes being I used to hunt from hill and dale and never see a hunter or have access problems. “Game cannot live on every ridge there are hunters.” Again, a conclusionary statement showing bias disguised as analyst. He uses this to condemn social media hunters as non-conservationist. I can tell you, that Randy Newburg videos helped me immensely preform my two do it yourself elk hunts. I killed elk with every ridge having a hunter on it. Game cannot live with every ridge a hunter all year round, but the scientific balance of hunters to time of year and number of game taken can. In fact, that balance allows the funding to make it so. Do I have minor issues with Randy Newburg’s presentation. The answer is yes. As an Eastern Hunter coming West on a 24 hour drive, with no local help, no horsemanship, I cannot bring a pack of llamas to get into and out of an area. Do I set up camp where I am going to hunt instead of down at 7,000 feet and hiking up to 9,000 feet in the area I am going to hunt out, then drive to the next hole in a few days and do it again. You better believe it. Yet, the balance is more than Positive.

Now, with the rise of media, I cannot find any good places left to hunt. Now, all this Social Media types has made it to where I cannot find a place to hunt. No one hates Social Media, on the whole more than me. I do not do Facebook, Instagram, Tick Tock, Twitter, Buzzer, or whatever is going on now. I do not know how. I do not want to know how. I think giving a minor a phone with internet and a camera should be a felony.

In this day and age where people do not grow up in non hunting families, do not grow up in households that supplement food with killing a hog in the winter, we must have media that says, this is how to skin an elk, this is how to gut a deer. Reading how in a book is great. However, no book even with pictures is as useful as seeing it. I have used such videos and will again.

I am not enamored, convinced, nor pressured with the author’s discourse in this article. Frankly, I have little respect for the author’s positions and would tell him so politely to his face.

The cost of hunting does need to be addressed. The point systems need to go away. Out of Staters may need to be limited to one tag a life time for species such as bull elk, mule deer bucks. The management of public lands needs to be addressed at the Federal Level. The bad press created by wildfires has ended much needed controlled burning. However, social media and traditional media did not create the real problems we see with public land.

The bottom line is everyone agrees we need more hunters. The complaining disguised as analyst of things that create more hunters or help new hunters be successful is like nails on a chalk board to me. In fact, it makes me angry. The author is engaging in the selfishness he condemns other for only from a different point of view.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Because I see a difference between a picture and vulgar language that imparts no information.

I see a difference between a photo and a picture of a hog with its Gus hanging out.

You sir can call me a goat sodomizing , crooked tooth, whatever. However, do not ever call me disingenuous.

I find your surrender and hide attitude pathetic.

By the math, you will be dead before me, and folks like you are surrendering hunting that I still enjoy and want to enjoy in the future.

Comparing a photo like you see here on AR most hunting photos to those two is like comparing the Bible to Hustler. Yeah, they are both are made paper, and you can turn the pages.

I condemn Ted Nugget and Pig Man for what they speak specifically. I do not condemn them for how they sound.


Your method of hiding hunting is the culture in the UK, and they are losing hunting opportunities every year. They lost the shooting of depredation crows of all things.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas "Ty" Beaham:
Hi Steve, Happy New Year.

Good discussion.

However, I must correct the record for clarity.

There is indeed a season for crow in Arizona.

The regulations for which can be found on page 67 of the 2021-2022 Arizona hunting regulations under commission order-14 "other birds and mammals"

Perhaps you were thinking Ravens, which is a common mistake even amongst seasoned outdoorsmen?


Ty


.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Because I see a difference between a picture and vulgar language that imparts no information.

I see a difference between a photo and a picture of a hog with its Gus hanging out.

You sir can call me a goat sodomizing , crooked tooth, whatever. However, do not ever call me disingenuous.

I find your surrender and hide attitude pathetic.

By the math, you will be dead before me, and folks like you are surrendering hunting that I still enjoy and want to enjoy in the future.

Comparing a photo like you see here on AR most hunting photos to those two is like comparing the Bible to Hustler. Yeah, they are both are made paper, and you can turn the pages.

I condemn Ted Nugget and Pig Man for what they speak specifically. I do not condemn them for how they sound.


Your method of hiding hunting is the culture in the UK, and they are losing hunting opportunities every year. They lost the shooting of depredation crows of all things.

I'll not argue what you think of me, because it really doesn't matter.

To answer your questions, yes, I see the difference between Ted/Pigman and A Cape Buffalo posted in the hunt report forum. Problaem is the people who hate us, and even some who don't hate us necessarily do not see the difference. Can you at least see that?

My method isn't hiding. It's simply not posting pictures of dead things on the internet.

My style of hunting and support for hunting through advocacy is defined as, working for a conservation organization. I was on the BOD of SCI for 11 years. In those 11 years, we raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, we donated ten's if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to the AZGFD. Some of our donations went directly to fund parts of the Ben Avery shooting range.

I personally took the Make-a-Wish hunting portion for sick and dying children under my wing. I cannot tell you how many kids we sent hunting. I can tell you how many died, 3. We sent one kid to Montana for a deer/elk hunt. He killed pretty quick. We sent the hides NDA to my taxidermist, who used a donor hide and mounted both trophies before the child passed. It was one of the proudest, yet saddest moments of my life.

I've carried bags on concrete to mountain tops to build drinkers for elk, etc.

I've done plenty for successful conservation through hunting. I'll just assume you've done your part as well.

I wish no ill will, but am unbending in my stance as to not understanding how me not posting pictures is bad for hunting? or hiding.

You cant shoot crow in Arizona either.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Because I see a difference between a picture and vulgar language that imparts no information.

I see a difference between a photo and a picture of a hog with its Gus hanging out.

You sir can call me a goat sodomizing , crooked tooth, whatever. However, do not ever call me disingenuous.

I find your surrender and hide attitude pathetic.

By the math, you will be dead before me, and folks like you are surrendering hunting that I still enjoy and want to enjoy in the future.

Comparing a photo like you see here on AR most hunting photos to those two is like comparing the Bible to Hustler. Yeah, they are both are made paper, and you can turn the pages.

I condemn Ted Nugget and Pig Man for what they speak specifically. I do not condemn them for how they sound.


Your method of hiding hunting is the culture in the UK, and they are losing hunting opportunities every year. They lost the shooting of depredation crows of all things.

I'll not argue what you think of me, because it really doesn't matter.

To answer your questions, yes, I see the difference between Ted/Pigman and A Cape Buffalo posted in the hunt report forum. Problaem is the people who hate us, and even some who don't hate us necessarily do not see the difference. Can you at least see that?

My method isn't hiding. It's simply not posting pictures of dead things on the internet.

My style of hunting and support for hunting through advocacy is defined as, working for a conservation organization. I was on the BOD of SCI for 11 years. In those 11 years, we raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, we donated ten's if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to the AZGFD. Some of our donations went directly to fund parts of the Ben Avery shooting range.

I personally took the Make-a-Wish hunting portion for sick and dying children under my wing. I cannot tell you how many kids we sent hunting. I can tell you how many died, 3. We sent one kid to Montana for a deer/elk hunt. He killed pretty quick. We sent the hides NDA to my taxidermist, who used a donor hide and mounted both trophies before the child passed. It was one of the proudest, yet saddest moments of my life.

I've carried bags on concrete to mountain tops to build drinkers for elk, etc.

I've done plenty for successful conservation through hunting. I'll just assume you've done your part as well.

I wish no ill will, but am unbending in my stance as to not understanding how me not posting pictures is bad for hunting? or hiding.

You cant shoot crow in Arizona either.

It does not matter what you think of me. However, I will not allow you to insult my integrity in this conversation without receipt.

I come to these conversations with the basic assumption that we are all coming from good faith attack the positions and not the person. You violated that.

England had been shooting crows for over a decade on depredation permits. The Urbanization and lack of main streaming hunting saw farmers crops decimated by bad policy.