I think he meant Dutch.... But I'm not sure. It's a Local Call for me, Should I call up Ray ? I don't think he's posting any more here... ?



Why's he bitter at me ? I'm the only one of the Lot that doesn't mind People shooting Elk in a ped. HELL, I stated that above didn't I ?



PS, I'm not a Troll. Gladiator I'd accept as a Title but troll.... thats Harsh. I might not be able to sleep tonight !!!!



PSS. Also, What BAnwagon was this Huntsonora on ? Justtrying to catch up here

Canuck, GeorgeS feel free to delete the whole thing, my point has been made

Moosie,

When Ray posted this fab opportunity to kill monster mulies in W. Texas, Huntsonora stepped in and in a very nice way called bs.

All the Ray groupies piled on him and proceeded to pummel him up some about daring to object to the quality of game.

...and that's it in a nutshell!

Ray sure hasn't been seen on this post for awhile, must have run home with his tail between his legs



He talks a big story about "spankin" Greenhorn but it sure looks like Ray is the one takin a "Spankin" on this post



Seems like he would have Bob from "Comstock" back up his BS about this Big Trophy Elk Hunt



But then again maybe Ray's balls are in his wifes purse

If the truth be known, the bulk of the hunting articles we read, including from the famous authors like General Craig Boddington, are about high fence hunts for semi-tame animals. Then hunting authors just 'forget' to mention it in the article. I do not find anything morally wrong in fenced hunting for those who want to do it.



Personally I like to hike true wilderness where I do not see others, but it is a lot of work and I do not always have time to do it that way, so I also hunt more accessible and more crowded areas. And if a guy wants to maximize his chance of taking a good animal, then a fenced ranch hunt is the way to go. But I will demur if anyone thinks a successful ranch hunt is an equal accomplishment to a successful public land hunt.

Is that Ray's ass?

Post deleted by RayBenttover

Matchkings are not hunting bullets
You guys drool


--------------------------------------------------------
"A barrel of Idaho potatos plummeting down a hill wouldn't have enough rolleyes for this lame thread....."

found this hunting ad-


shooter bulls - (Sauk Centre, mn)
Posted 03/28/2004
5 2yr. old,s 5 3yr. olds $800.00 each

sure beats the other prices I have seen posted!

bet ya won't have to do much walkin-

I can offer this same hunt $800.00 + 35%

shooter bulls - (Sauk Centre, mn)
Posted 03/28/2004
5 2yr. old,s 5 3yr. olds $800.00 each

I got to eat to

In case anyone is interested, and couldn't have guessed already, Raybentover = jimmyd223



Jimmy, do us a favor and clean it up. If your argument has any substance, you shouldn't have to resort to childish attacks.



Disagreeing with Ray is one thing...disgracing Saeed's forum is another altogether. I for one do not appreciate it, and I am sure the vast majority of members will agree with me.



Respectfully,

Canuck

jimmyd223,

You've had the last word in this debate. How about moving on? Or, if you like, the thread can be moved to 'Miscellaneous Topics' where it can continue ad infinitum without detracting from 'Big Game Hunting' topics.

George

I, for one, strongly agree as this sort of thing has no place on a forum such as this, IMHO.

I would not go on any sort of fenced hunt, even for free, but, I see no problem with people doing this if they want to as long as the animals are killed in a humane fashion.

A certain level of basic courtesy among us will enable all of us to learn from each other and enjoy doing so; that is why I participate in AR.

So Canuck, I take it you find the offer of Ray's Trophy Elk Hunt/Free Range/Fair Chase to be just as Ray offered it. You are 100% right that some of this has been childish and also funny as hell.

You don't like me "bustin" Ray's Holy balls, well tough shit. Somrtimes the truth hurts, plus I stepped on the big guys fuckin toes.



Ray is really doing the AR members a Discount?

Fact is Real Ray's price 9500.00 - 35%= 6175

Comstock price 4500.00



Fair Chase 8mile X 3mile High fence

Comstock per Bob 2300 acres High fence



Ray walk in only

Comstock 4X4 within 200 yards of game



Ray no differenc between Comstock and the Selway-Bitteroot

Look at the fucking pictures



Go back and see how Ray treated and acted towards Greenhorn



You don't like what I have got to say or pointing out the Truth , there are two options, ignore button or better yet "BAN" me



I refuse to be a "Ray the pimp Dick Dangler"

Jimmyd223,



You missed my point entirely. I am not trying to defend Ray in any way shape or form. Ray is a big boy and can take care of himself.



I don't have a problem with the points you are trying to make, just HOW you are currently trying to make them. I didn't step in earlier because it was not warranted. Ray opened the door by advertising these hunts, and should be prepared to back them up. I have only stepped in at this point because of the use of offensive images, excessive profanity and rediculous aliases.



I have made my opinions on high fence hunting known here in the past, and don't feel the need to air them again. As far as Comstock goes, I have no opinion...never been there. But this info is completely irrelevent to the point I am trying to make.



Argue all you want...I am just asking you to try to keep it clean.



Canuck

George and kutenaymtnboy I agree that this topic has just about run it's course.

Jimmyd sure doesn't need me to stick up for him, but.

I think some are missing the point here. It isn't just the canned hunt/fair chase debate. While that is the main focus, it's also about a guy who will jump onto somebody and make accusations about a canned hunt, then turn around and sell the same type of hunt. It's also about not being bullied into submission. When Ray got called on it he immediately went aggresive and straight to name calling
and belittling those opposite his opinion.

I don't know Ray at all, and I've heard people that I think are stand up people say good things about him. But, his behavior here on this thread and others I have read have been eye openers.

Just my opinion.

Well said Canuck.

Jeff

Gentlemen,

Isn't sad how a thread can deteriorate to this sort of name calling?

If I picked on every post that I did not agree with, I would have had 2 million posts to my name by now, and probably have 10% of the number of visitors we do have today - we broke 6 millions this morning, just in case any of you wants to know.

Each of us has his own opinion on hunting - and I only had one experince with a so called hunter, who claimed to have had an extensive hunting life.

He only hunted on foot, never on a farm, killed all his animals with one shot at 400 yards or more.

I hunted with him.

He practically wounded everything he shot at, from the back of the truck, and sent his PH to finish his animals. I saw one incident with my own eyes.

We did not tell him what we have seen.

At dinner, he hi-jacked the conversation - as he usually did every evening - and told us of his great hunt that day.

After dinner, his PH turned to me and asked "was he talking about our hunt?"

We have an awful lot of people who do go out and consider themselves hunting. Even when they put a feeder a couple of hundred yards from their house, and come huinting season, sit in their truck with a can of beer and wait for the deer to come and whack him.

And there are others who consider a real hunt is one which a person does on his own, in the middle of a 100 mile wilderness, without a single soul around.

99% of hunters are in between. So why don't just apprecite that each one of us enjoys the sort of hunt HE considers of value to him.

There is enough negative media opinion on hunting, and fighting amongst ourselves is really the last thing we should do.

Jimmy,

We don't ban people here. You are free to post anything you wish.

I have been hunting big game for 22 years. I hve hunted large open concessions, and I have hunted farms in South Africa.

I have had some extremely easy hunts on a 330,000 square kilometer concession, and I've had a very difficult hunt on a fenced farm of 3,000 acres.

I will give you a couple of examples.

We were driving along one afternoon, and we saw two buffalo bulls running into the bush close to the road. One of them was huge. I jumped out of the truck, and shot him. WE ran a few yards after the other one, and shot that one too.

The first one turned out to be the biggest buffalo I have ever shot - I have shot over 100 buffalos.

On the 3,000 acre farm, which was heavily wooded, we saw an eland bull around 9 in the morning. We followed that bull until 5 in the afternoon, never managing to get a shot at him.

I enjoyed both hunts.

Saeed: You are a diplomate and a gentleman. And so is Canuck. And that is appreciated. You lead by example and you set a good example.

Saeed and Canuck: it's people like you that make this site worthwhile. I think all the name calling from both sides is ridiculous. I hunted one particular whitetail buck for 4 years before I got him, this was on less than 500 acres. The two biggest elk I've taken were both in public areas within a few hundred yards of camp, with more time spent skinning and cutting up than hunting.

There's a place in North Idaho where you can buy an Elk(even pick it out) and shoot if if you want at there place and they will do the rest for less than a thousand bucks if I remember right.Not my cup of Tea,but for some it is or they would be out of buisness.Elk Meat as everyone knows is better for you than Beef,so while you can't call it fair chase by any means you are getting some good and healthy meat in the process.

To each his own on what is a real hunt and what caliber is the ultimate caliber as opinions differ.To question someone with the experience that that person has in Elk hunting should only be done by those that have as much or more actual field experience than he or it is just guessing or something one has read not experienced.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

I was wondering why the moderator/administrator didn't step in earlier. I do not come here to read trash like jimmy has been posting.

jaycocreek,

I agree with you. As my wife stated game preserves aren't hunting, since you aren't searching for something that might not be there, they are definitely there, it may take some time to find them, but they are there.

Lay off ol' Ray. He is simply a salesman pedalling his wears. I have found Ray a tremendous source of 'Comic Relief' over the years here at AR. Having said that, the most comical events of all are reading the posts of those that believe the hype that Ray types out! Now those individuals are the truly hilarious ones, not poor ol' Ray.

This thread, in it's entirety, is the precise reason I have decided not to post here anymore. So this will be my last post, God willing and the river don't rise.

Scott

Hey,

I thought you were going to honor the results of your own poll. The results 29 to 13 in favor of your departure.

Quote:

---

Should I leave forever? I will check the results Saturday and honor the vote.

Scott

---

Scott's poll

You just can't help yourself, can you?

CPS

There sure is a lot of thin skin in this thread! Seems some guys are a bit emotional, getting their feelings hurt too easily.

I'm sure glad that Saeed can keep it in perspective. A cheese salesman could make a fortune here.

We respect everyone's opinion, and they will all behave like gentlemen.

Obviously, sometimes, due to reasons which are very hard for me to fathom, someone loose his common sense, and a lot of others follow suit.

I've heard both the Irish and the Scottish are to blame.

They make very good whisky.

500, nice of you to not name, names

"I've heard both the Irish and the Scottish are to blame.

They make very good whisky. "

NOW THAT IS FUNNY!!

It would be an honor to share a glass of either with you.
Whether it be after shooting in a high fence, or hunting in the outbacks. Its really all good. Matter of fact, it would be an honor to share a glass with most any of the hunters on this forum. So long as we leave our opinions at home. Of course then it would not leave much to talk about... but remember that in biogeography, there is such a thing as an island, whether it be a single mtn peak, an ocean island, or an oasis in a desert. these isolated islands of habitat are valuable wherever and however they are formed or maintained. And let us gather together to praise the retention of them wherever they be, since it is the survival of the habitat, enclosed or not, that is the essence of the future of the hunt.

Now for my opinion: Sell the experience, not the animal. selling animals by the pound (or inch) is not hunting. it is shopping. Scoring animals that are bred and raised to shoot is a business.. but it is not fair chase if the animal has no chance of dieing a natural death. plain and simple. Put a hunter in a pen with a hungry lion, and with no firearms, now that may be fair chase!!! Then let that hunter decide how big the enclosure needs to be to call it fair chase..
I have been charged by grizzlies twice. That was fair chase.
Jameister

Jameister,

Deer in Michigan do not die a "natural death" as you describe. They either get killed by a hunter at the age of 1.5 years or hit by a car!

Very few make it past 1.5 years of age. It would be extremely rare to find a deer of any sex that died of old age in Michigan. In the very north some do starve over winter, usually the fawns. Once the snow melts the amount of deer carcasses littering the road side is astounding. My state does not clean them up.

Ann,
In Michigan natural predators have 4 wheels I believe there were right about 70,000 deer/vehicle accidents last year. Nearly 3000 in the county I live in. Probably at least that many unreported. I know a woman who got 6 at one time with a Buick. I have a 25 mile drive to work on country roads and I counted 15 dead deer along the road on the way home yesterday. Keeps me REAL alert when I have my motorcycle out.

Jeff

There are at least 20 carcasses on the 8 mile stretch of road I have each day to the main road. I personally would like to see deer season extended rather than let all the cars have them. It's just not fair!



Oh, and this is gross, early last Thursday morning on the way to the office someone had nailed one and must have dead centered it real good. It looked like a giant meat ball in the middle of the road. There was no skin and it was perfectly rolled into a ball.

How about when a semi gets them and they end up a 100 yard long stain? The funny thing is I work in a rural area. Around here the locals consider deer season just a time to be more watchful of the laws. I know lots of people that try and pick them off with their old beaters.

Jeff

Several years back, the Pennsylvania Blame (Oh yeah, I did mean Game) Commission changed the rules on road killed deer. We are now allowed to pick them up and take them home, whereby a wildlife conservation officer will come and tag it for our use.

Upon being told this, one of our notorious local poachers asked, "Just how far off the road can I go to hit one?"

I spent four years in the north woods of minnesot. If I were a deer, and looked at another frigid winter, or another bug-filled summer, running into a car might be a logical choice... I consider that to be a "natural death" as per fair chase. the animal certainly does not retain behind fence with a guaranteed bullet eventually taking it.
And it may be hard to find, but I guarantee that there are a lot more than just the 1.5 year old deer in Michigan.

remember its fair chase or chair face!!

You can keep roadkill in Michigan as well. If you smack one you can plan on a dozen people stopping to ask if you want to keep it. The funniest roadkill stories I have involve turkeys. One day last summer one of my employees came into my office first thing in the morning. He told me I had to come look in his trunk. Just before he opened it up he looked at me and deadpanned "You might want to step back, I'm not sure he's dead" <lol> He had a big tom that had been clipped by a truck and was staggering around on the shoulder. My employee had bailed out and finished him with a tire iron. The second was at a local party store. A delivery driver stopped in and was all beat up. He was driving a panel truck with open doors and a hen came flying in the door and hit him. He knocked her into the back and she went nuts flapping her wings. He was driving a Lays truck and she absolutely trashed all the chips in the truck.

Jeff