quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Really??? That's your answer?

Perry

My answer was in my post. I'm not going to take you all by the hand and lead you with quotes back through it all.

We'll argue again about the same topic I'm sure sometime down the road, but if you have any more questions about my stance on this or how I got there, just refer to the big ole huge post above. I spent a lot of time with attention to detail on it and I have no more to say on the subject.

If smack wants to show the board I'm wrong by putting on display the ballistic capabilities of the Grendel, he can join us who are "out there doing it" at Whittington center the first Sunday of every month starting in February.

Best wishes to y'all....

And there's the ego, BAM! There are plenty of people I know and I shoot with that are involved in the long range and short range. F-Class, tactical or Hunter BR style competition, some hold world records in HBR, I was at the last HBR Nationals not to long ago. It's not for me, at least not in this point in my life. I enjoy the hunt, I enjoying shooting hair and fur, I enjoy making it happen. I enjoy being out there "Doing it" Some day when I can no longer carry from the field my gear, my rifle and a boned out deer on my back I will take to the bench and dwell on the finer points of marksmanship.

RC,

The chart you posted explains everything nicely, but you have to remember that in the mule deer post the energy left was enough to do the job. I imagine it will work in future situations, as long as proper shot placement occurs. If it doesn't, you want to blame the cartridge? I am pretty sure it will be the shooter and spotter's fault, but I could be mistaken.

Just to play devils advocate a little.

It is stated that 22 centerfire cartridges wound deer at higher percentage than say, a bigger cartridge. I disagree with that statement, but it is posted quite often.

Remember that I have personally killed around three dozen animals with an alleged "inadequate" caliber and been involved in another dozen or so with ladies, and youth hunters. To sum it up, it works. So when someone trie to tell me it doesn't, they are FOS, because I have been there done that, with novice hunters no less.

Am I then correct in stating that long range hunting has a higher chance of wounding, regardless of the cartridge? Specifically because of all the factors you listed in your last post. It is more difficult to achieve proper shot placement. It has to be, otherwise everyone could do it.

So I find it perplexing that you are a proponent of long range hunting, and an opponent of using small cartridges (that are entirely adequate from my experience). And you are vehemently opposed to using small cartridges for long range hunting? I believe pitiful and pathetic were the words you used.

And you posted this in your last thread.

quote:

Making the choice to shoot big game animals with this type of cartridge can only be the result of Ego, Machisimo or Bravado to "see if it can be done". It displays utter disregard and devoid of respect for the game.

It can just as easily read:

"Making the choice to shoot big game animals at long range can only be the result of Ego, Machisimo or Bravado to "see if it can be done". It displays utter disregard and devoid of respect for the game."

As far as killing an animal, it is not rocket science. Put a bullet/arrow into the vitals, cause bleeding, stop blood/oxygen flow to the brain, unconsciousness, then death.

I think that too many people have been conditioned for bang flops. This is from the high shoulder shots on hunting shows to instant death on video games. They want instant incapacitation and if the animal runs off 100 yards and dies, it is somehow a failure. I think this can be also be attributed to: Ego, Machismo, or Bravado.

I have witnessed hundreds of animals being shot and killed. I have personally killed, I don't know, a couple hundred big game animals. Ranging from antelope to moose. I have come to the conclusion that if one puts a bullet/arrow in the right place, it is done deal. But the bullet/arrow must have adequate energy to do the job.

The issue is defining adequate without the influence of

quote:

Ego, Machisimo or Bravado

. It doesn't take that much energy to do the job.

Any variance from good shot placement because of Murphy's laws, physics or atmospheric conditions, you will have a problem. Ego, Machismo, or Bravado be damned.

Once again, I will state again that long range hunting is an effective method. I just feel it has more of chance for bad shot placement to occur.

Good luck in all your competitve shooting, I wish you well.

quote:

Once again, I will state again that long range hunting is an effective method. I just feel it has more of chance for bad shot placement to occur.

The range in question is 493 yards and that is not long range. Even the Military considers it Medium range. IMHO long is past 600 yards

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Once again, I will state again that long range hunting is an effective method. I just feel it has more of chance for bad shot placement to occur.

The range in question is 493 yards and that is not long range. Even the Military considers it Medium range. IMHO long is past 600 yards

Long can be debated, but it absolutely is too long when a 1mph wind blows the bullet 5 inches (or totally out of the vital area). Who cares about energy? If the bullet is drifting 5 inches in a 1 mph wind, you have no business shooting, and that is being pretty liberal.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Once again, I will state again that long range hunting is an effective method. I just feel it has more of chance for bad shot placement to occur.

The range in question is 493 yards and that is not long range. Even the Military considers it Medium range. IMHO long is past 600 yards

Long can be debated, but it absolutely is too long when a 1mph wind blows the bullet 5 inches (or totally out of the vital area). Who cares about energy? If the bullet is drifting 5 inches in a 1 mph wind, you have no business shooting, and that is being pretty liberal.

Windage can be and is corrected for, go blow smoke up someone elses leg

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Once again, I will state again that long range hunting is an effective method. I just feel it has more of chance for bad shot placement to occur.

The range in question is 493 yards and that is not long range. Even the Military considers it Medium range. IMHO long is past 600 yards

Long can be debated, but it absolutely is too long when a 1mph wind blows the bullet 5 inches (or totally out of the vital area). Who cares about energy? If the bullet is drifting 5 inches in a 1 mph wind, you have no business shooting, and that is being pretty liberal.

One can't compensate for such wind? One can't adjust their hold or dial the correct MOA on their target knob? It's worked for me for a long time, the piles of Prairie dogs, Groundhogs and other big game have been quite "LIBERAL" using this method.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Once again, I will state again that long range hunting is an effective method. I just feel it has more of chance for bad shot placement to occur.

The range in question is 493 yards and that is not long range. Even the Military considers it Medium range. IMHO long is past 600 yards

Long can be debated, but it absolutely is too long when a 1mph wind blows the bullet 5 inches (or totally out of the vital area). Who cares about energy? If the bullet is drifting 5 inches in a 1 mph wind, you have no business shooting, and that is being pretty liberal.

Windage can be and is corrected for, go blow smoke up someone elses leg

JWP:

If you want, I can regurgitate my competitive shooting experience as well. Let's just say I have no problem hitting clay pigeons at 700 yards shooting sitting with a bipod. I can do it at 400 yards all day long shooting sitting with a sling.

So if you think you can account for wind, tell you what. You come out to the desert. I will pay for your ticket. We shoot at ranges where wind blows your bullet the said 5 inches in a 1 mph wind; doesn't matter what the caliber is, we will adjust the range for it.

You hit a 10 inch target nine of ten times, and I give you $500. You don't and you pay for your own plane ticket and pay me $250.

It must be like taking candy from a baby, right?

PS: I shoot at these distances twice a week. It isn't as easy as holding a wet dick to the wind and dialing in clicks.

Regurgitate all you want.

1 Shot DRT in a quartering 10 MPH wind at 777 yards 1MOA windage correction and the blood from the exit can be seen on the does shoulder






As to your challenge. A few years ago I took you up on that very same challenger when I was in Az. but you couldn't make it when I was available.
Competitors do not always translate into doers in the field

quote:

Competitors do not always translate into doers in the field

Bam! That just happened, there is much truth to that.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Regurgitate all you want.

1 Shot DRT in a quartering 10 MPH wind at 777 yards 1MOA windage correction and the blood from the exit can be seen on the does shoulder






As to your challenge. A few years ago I took you up on that very same challenger when I was in Az. but you couldn't make it when I was available.
Competitors do not always translate into doers in the field

One MOA of wind isn't squat. And one shot doesn't prove much either. I once shot a 3/8 inch five shot group at 200 yards sitting with a sling. Pure luck.

At 777 yards a .338 Sierra MK at 3000 fps drifts only 2.63 inches in a one mph wind. On the other and, a 140 SMK at 2400 will drift over twice that.

At some point, wind becomes too much of a problem.

I don't recall your trip here, but this time I will pay for your ticket.

quote:

At some point, wind becomes too much of a problem.

At what "Point" is this? Shooters vary in skill. I know some I would let shoot at me at 600 yards all day in 5-7 conditions and I know some that I wouldn't even chance it at a grand in 10-12 conditions.

The wind was 10 MPH and 1 MOA at 777 yards is 8.136744". Yes 1 shot does prove something, because in the hunting field 1 well placed shot is all that is needed. Groups are for compition, in the field the animal dies and falls down from 1 well placed shot before one gets to shoot for group

Not sure why you referrenced a 338 Sierra bullet at 3K for, but what ever. The bullet that I was using that day was a 180 TSX 30 cal

587 yards and it was a chip shot






With this, from here





Theory and conjecture, is just theory and conjecture

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
The wind was 10 MPH and 1 MOA at 777 yards is 8.136744". Yes 1 shot does prove something, because in the hunting field 1 well placed shot is all that is needed. Groups are for compition, in the field the animal dies and falls down from 1 well placed shot before one gets to shoot for group

Not sure why you referrenced a 338 Sierra bullet at 3K for, but what ever. The bullet that I was using that day was a 180 TSX 30 cal

I agree one well placed shot is what it is all about. But can you do that 9 of ten times? That is all I am asking.

I shoot various 300 RUMs at 700 to 750 all day long. I have dialed in as much as 7 1/2 MOA and hit a three inch circle at 700 yards with my first shot. I know I can't do that everytime in that kind of wind. Can you?

At some point, the wind blows hard enough you have no business shooting. That range is a function of drift, not range. Just hold an anemomter in the wind in Wyoming and tell me the wind blows steady. Ha! I have learned a few tricks for shooting in that condition, but it isn't a slam dunk. If the wind is varying 2 mph at any given second, you need to be close enough that a 2 mph drift doesn't take you out of the vital area.

The reference to the .338 bullet is because that is the standard long range bullet these days.

quote:

shoot various 300 RUMs at 700 to 750 all day long. I have dialed in as much as 7 1/2 MOA and hit a three inch circle at 700 yards with my first shot. I know I can't do that everytime in that kind of wind. Can you?

The answer is simple if I do not feel comfortable with a shot I don't take it. Distance has nothing to do with taking a shot or not for me, but condition do. I once pssed a shot at a very nice 6X6 Elk at 100 yards or a bit less because I was breathing too hard to keep him in the scope. I didn't feel confident in making that shot so I passed and came home empty hande, but that's hunting

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
587 yards and it was a chip shot






With this, from here





Theory and conjecture, is just theory and conjecture

Thats some awful SEXY glass parked on that rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Regurgitate all you want.

1 Shot DRT in a quartering 10 MPH wind at 777 yards 1MOA windage correction and the blood from the exit can be seen on the does shoulder






As to your challenge. A few years ago I took you up on that very same challenger when I was in Az. but you couldn't make it when I was available.
Competitors do not always translate into doers in the field

I missed the 10 mph part. Having shot at that range a lot, I can guarantee you need more than 1 moa.

Assuming that your bullet was doing 3300 fps, the drift at 775 yards is 24 inches, or 3 MOA. So you either got lucky or the wind was only about 3 mph. Or your bullet was going over 5000 fps.

AnotherAZwriter,
Like Ray you are arguing with SUCCESS and trying to use your resume to trump actual SUCCESS. All your resume tells us is you can not hit a disk 9/10 times BUT these guys did have 1 shot kills on animals. Ya'lls logic in this is.... ????

I have no dog in this fight so this is not personal, but why tell someone else what they can't do when they obviously have the skill and equipment to accomplish said feat?


Perry

quote:

I missed the 10 mph part. Having shot at that range a lot, I can guarantee you need more than 1 moa.

AnotherAZWriter, you must read and then comprehend, I also stated that the wind was quartering and that means the wind is treated like a 2 1/2 MPH wind. You remember when you were in school 4 into 10 = 2 1/2

A "quartering" wind is generally understood to be 45 degrees. But if you are saying it was half of that, fine. The drift is now 13 inches. You can't take the wind "quarters" and divide them by full value? Remember your trig? A "half" wind as you describe it is 70% of full value, and a "quartering" wind is 38% value. One rule of thumb I have is take the angle of wind and multiply it by 1.5, then round up to the nearest 5 and you have the correct value. So 22.5 angle times 1.5 is 33.75; round up to the nearest five and you get 35, which is very close to 38%. But it isn't 1/4 the value. The bullet your were shooting drifts 3.4 inches for every one mile of wind speed. In a wind blowing 2-4 mph you need to hold for 2 and shoot on 2 or hold for 4 and shoot on 4. Anything else and risk missing.

I would agree with others the intensity of the wind. It wouldn't matter if the wind was 15-17 or 2-4. Of course, in real life, the harder the wind blows, generally the more variation.

Perry,
I truly believe these guys shot animals at these distances. And on the first shot. But I don't know how many "misses" came with those.

Liam Yarborough of Bushnell and I were hunting in Wyoming in 2008. He spotted a prairie dog way off. We couldn't range him, but we could to a lone tree. Based on my scope subtention and the range to the tree, I estimated him at 575 yards. The wind was strong, but because of mirage I could see it wasn't close to full value. So I held four dots high and one dot in the wind. I was shooting sitting with a sling, and a non-attached bipod as a rest. I hit that PD with the first shot. We had to drive around a creek just to get to him. We then shot back to the tree and calculated the range as 573 yards. One shot, shooting sitting, 573 yards on a PD. What the hell does that mean? Nothing.

A shot at 700 yards is at least twice as difficult as a shot at 500 yards.

I just got back from a moose hunt. On that hunt, if you wounded a moose (and they judged that by the animals reaction, not necessarily by finding blood) your hunt was over. I paid about 14K for that hunt, and trust me, even though it was a lot bigger than a PD, I halved the distance of that PD shot and shot him sitting with my sling at 260 yards.

My guide said, "I have never seen a guy shoot like that; putting your arm through the strap and all."

This policy of "wound an animal and your hunt is done" is getting to be more and more popular with guides. I asked mine why. He said that everyone with a rangefinder thinks they kill stuff as far as they can see it. It is one thing to be on a DIY where you can contiue to hunt if you wound an animal; another to have your hunt end.

Long range hunting seems to be all about the shot, not the trophy quality.

I think it quite telling no one has gone clean on the NRA course mentioned in this or another thread. If long range shooting is such a piece of cake, why not?

I don't care what anybody says. 500yards shooting is a stunt and unsporting with any caliber you choose. You can get closer and you can use a better cartidge. Yea he got a deer at 493 yards. How many are still walking around out there wounded that he didn't tell us about?

AnotherAZWriter, after reading your first parahgraph I know understand your difficulty with the wind. You are telling me that my tried and true field tested data is incorrect, but since it works for me and I learned it from one of the best long range shooters (and taken MUCH farther than I) in the world, I think I'll continue to do what I know works

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I don't care what anybody says. 500yards shooting is a stunt and unsporting with any caliber you choose. You can get closer and you can use a better cartidge. Yea he got a deer at 493 yards. How many are still walking around out there wounded that he didn't tell us about?

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
AnotherAZwriter,
Like Ray you are arguing with SUCCESS and trying to use your resume to trump actual SUCCESS. All your resume tells us is you can not hit a disk 9/10 times BUT these guys did have 1 shot kills on animals. Ya'lls logic in this is.... ????



I have no dog in this fight so this is not personal, but why tell someone else what they can't do when they obviously have the skill and equipment to accomplish said feat?


Perry

Exactly, AZ might as well toss his so called "Resume" out the window when he starts running his yap like that. Always the guy on the sofa/recliner judging every hunting situation with google or some old book from the depth of the reloading room. One of those guys that thinks his post count actually means something.

For some the fun is getting close, for some it is shooting at a distance many of us are not comfortable with. As long as game is not wounded and if it is wounded it is followed and recovered great.

I find it curious the experienced shooters who appear to shoot long distances on a regular basis disagree on how to adjust for wind.

Last year I purchased a rifle and scope capable of 600 yards plus to learn how to shoot at distances longer than I am used to. So far I am pretty bad at correcting for wind and still try to keep shots on game at 300 and under. One of these days I will venture out and try varmits at longer range.

So for you long range shooters any tips on judging wind at distance?

BigB

quote:

Originally posted by SMACK!!!!:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
AnotherAZwriter,
Like Ray you are arguing with SUCCESS and trying to use your resume to trump actual SUCCESS. All your resume tells us is you can not hit a disk 9/10 times BUT these guys did have 1 shot kills on animals. Ya'lls logic in this is.... ????



I have no dog in this fight so this is not personal, but why tell someone else what they can't do when they obviously have the skill and equipment to accomplish said feat?


Perry

Exactly, AZ might as well toss his so called "Resume" out the window when he starts running his yap like that. Always the guy on the sofa/recliner judging every hunting situation with google or some old book from the depth of the reloading room. One of those guys that thinks his post count actually means something.

Smack,

I am pretty sure my hunting resume is longer than yours.

And don't get me wrong; I am not saying "distance x" is to far. But I am saying that once you are dialing one click or for every one mph of wind, you are not going to be able to hit a paper plate nine of ten times. Can you kill game? Of course you can. And I am not in the camp that says 500 yards is a stunt. Personally, 500 yards in a 10 mph is infinitely easier than 700 yards with a 2 mph fishtailing wind. Your margin of error at 500 is huge compared to that at 700. The wind speed isn't what matters, it is your ability to not only dope it perfectly over "x" range, but then shoot under the exact conditions, because you and I know they are going to vary.

At really long ranges, you can throw in another variable: the wind speed where your bullet is traveling is different than your line of sight to the target. The closer you are to the ground, the slower the wind speed. But your bullet may be several feet above your line of sight. IMO, at really long ranges, you have to "add" some for this affect.

BTW, I am certainly no armchair expert. One of the prinicipal reasons I live in Arizona is to shoot at long distances several times per week. Going out this afternoon, as a matter of fact.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by SMACK!!!!:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
AnotherAZwriter,
Like Ray you are arguing with SUCCESS and trying to use your resume to trump actual SUCCESS. All your resume tells us is you can not hit a disk 9/10 times BUT these guys did have 1 shot kills on animals. Ya'lls logic in this is.... ????



I have no dog in this fight so this is not personal, but why tell someone else what they can't do when they obviously have the skill and equipment to accomplish said feat?


Perry

Exactly, AZ might as well toss his so called "Resume" out the window when he starts running his yap like that. Always the guy on the sofa/recliner judging every hunting situation with google or some old book from the depth of the reloading room. One of those guys that thinks his post count actually means something.

Smack,

I am pretty sure my hunting resume is longer than yours.

And don't get me wrong; I am not saying "distance x" is to far. But I am saying that once you are dialing one click or for every one mph of wind, you are not going to be able to hit a paper plate nine of ten times. Can you kill game? Of course you can. And I am not in the camp that says 500 yards is a stunt. Personally, 500 yards in a 10 mph is infinitely easier than 700 yards with a 2 mph fishtailing wind. Your margin of error at 500 is huge compared to that at 700. The wind speed isn't what matters, it is your ability to not only dope it perfectly over "x" range, but then shoot under the exact conditions, because you and I know they are going to vary.

At really long ranges, you can throw in another variable: the wind speed where your bullet is traveling is different than your line of sight to the target. The closer you are to the ground, the slower the wind speed. But your bullet may be several feet above your line of sight. IMO, at really long ranges, you have to "add" some for this affect.

BTW, I am certainly no armchair expert. One of the prinicipal reasons I live in Arizona is to shoot at long distances several times per week. Going out this afternoon, as a matter of fact.

Maybe you and RC should just get together and compare your junk, because nobody else gives a S@&T but you two.

Save it for a magazine article AZ. Thats the problem these days. A bunch of dumb asses reading articles from the likes of you. Their time would be much better spent in the field "Doing it" learning from it.

Noone here is going to convince the other that their point of view is correct, so how about putting an end to the retarded bitchfest?

quote:

Originally posted by gimpsuitjones:
Noone here is going to convince the other that their point of view is correct, so how about putting an end to the retarded bitchfest?

Love it! It is what it is..........

Interesting view points presented here.

As usual there are a couple of lads who refuse to believe in the field experience over their own opinions. Sounds familiar.... like my dearest buddy Hotsh#t. RC seems to have many of the same twisted responses as the above named.... wait a second they are buddies!!!!!

But on to more important matters. I've shot quite a few critters with the smaller end of the caliber range and enjoy the experience. But then again I've taken a bunch of critters with a bow, no sites, just instinctive. One of the underlining facts of this discussion of the use of the smaller calibers that seems to be neglected is the amount of shooting time a lad gets with the smaller calibers compared to the larger end of the spectrum. My guess would be if you had a safe full of shooters that on a rounds fired basis, you would discover that most of the hunters with such a safe, will be shooting their smaller calibers.

The lads that I've been around that shoot a lot especially with one rifle, tend to be the better shots. Many of the guys here will go afield in the varmint seasons and spend a lot of time and lead chasing them. The more you shoot your shooter the more familiar you are with it's performance in the field with the wind and all the other factors. So with some of us shooting many hundreds of rounds with these smaller calibers it should not shock the "armchair" opinionaters that we are able to shoot better than they are....... and can hit stuff at longer distances.

Seems like jealousy is a terrible thing!!!!

What part of Idaho? I started shooting the area above Cat Creek Summit about 1980 on a regular basis. Gradually, moved east to as far as those lava rock beds just west of Poky on 20/26.
There were thousands of Rockchucks back then.
Geovids made me a good shot.

Rich

My humble opinion: if you shoot a lot of 'chucks here yearly, you get to be a pretty good wind and mirage doper, and a decent judge of distances.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
What part of Idaho? I started shooting the area above Cat Creek Summit about 1980 on a regular basis. Gradually, moved east to as far as those lava rock beds just west of Poky on 20/26.
There were thousands of Rockchucks back then.
Geovids made me a good shot. My humble opinion: if you shoot a lot of 'chucks here yearly, you get to be a pretty good wind and mirage doper, and a decent judge of distances.

Rich

Most of my Rockchuck lead flinging is done from Burley to Mt. Home close to the Snake River. It seems that what is needed is water, rocks, (usually found in plentiful supply in these areas) and pasture and/or hay fields. I have shot some north of Boise on the way to Idaho City but that was quite a while ago and haven't heard any reports of any numbers up that way. Some of the local golf courses have a supply and I would love to get permission there but the managers don't want lead flying around the heads of the golfers???????

I would think that between Mt. Home and Homedale would be productive but you have to deal with the National Birds of Prey restrictions on shooting rifles and then down by Homedale is gets very agriculture oriented. Possible around Homedale but not the easy access of Federal land.

quote:

Seems like jealousy is a terrible thing!!!!

I agree! It's right next to stupidity.

quote:

Originally posted by Scotch Bonnet:

quote:

Seems like jealousy is a terrible thing!!!!

I agree! It's right next to stupidity.

And the peanut roars

jwp475

Looking at those pictures is proof of the validity of your long range hunting methods. I would be interested in hearing about some of your experience that you've gained with these methods and equipment but it might be better accomplished by a PM rather than casting pearls before swine here on this thread and board.

Congrats on those long long shots. I know how difficult those are to pull off and how much skill and practice it takes to do that.

I don't know if your remember Buliwlf or as I referred to him on these boards, Bulsh#t, but RC reminds me of the old gent. Apparently Buliwlf is no longer with us according to Idaho Shooter. RC promotes himself as the suppository of all knowledge and offends all who don't agree with him. Amazing that he would be a representative of Browning with that attitude. It's kinda like Clint said "A man's got to know his limitations" and RC is very limited. I once disagreed with him and he told me "It's on!!". Boy was I scared with that comment!!!!

Don't let the bas#ard bother you and keep sharing your experiences here. Thanks.