The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Vetting rcamugliaGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Vetting rcamuglia | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
You seem to have a bunch of experience in shooting? from what I can gather. But you are so busy posting negative crap, writing fiction, and being a comedian. It is hard to tell how much is actual experience and what is smoke and mirrors. So would you please list your actual experiences and being a positive source of information to the forum? If something works, please don't expound on how it doesn't. It makes you look like a, well, umm, a fool. Just because you don't personally agree with it, doesn't automatically make it wrong. | ||
|
| One of Us |
No different than this thread speaks for you SDhunter. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Robert Wilde, You have an issue with reading comprehension. At least you posted something constructive.  This post is directed to rcamuglia. | |||
|
One of Us |
I do know this, rc won the match at the NRA land in New Mexico where they take 60 shots from varying distances at 10" discs. The ranges were out to over 800 yards. This last weekend he was in San Antonio for a shoot although I don't think he did as well. I have also seen many of his photos with game animals. Mostly in the thread about how to display photos and avoid gore. From his posts here he is a knowledgeable reloader, perhaps a bit precipitous at times, but brings up interesting and intelligent points. He obviously has the wherewithall and opportunity to do a lot of shooting. Like some others he is disgusted with the lack of respect for game that is displayed by some with using insufficient calibers and bullets. He has chosen to take these shooters to task, sometimes with humor. Do I believe everything he says or agree with him always? No, but I always find him entertaining and often thought provoking. JMO ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
One of Us |
When the Deer is killed with 1 shot and the bullet exits the animal, the cartridge is obviouly adequate.........  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
 We live in a free country where even the clueless have their say. | |||
|
| One of Us |
What part of 1 shot kill with an exit do you not understand?? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| one of us |
+1 Excellent post Mr. Woods. Only problem I've ever had with R is trying to get him straightened out after Woods explains something to him.  R definitely knows to use an "Adequate Cartridge" for the Game at hand rather than a weenie, high-potential wound/maim Stunt Cartridge. Most everyone knows his Flicks set the Standard for the Board in clarity, sharpness, composition, with a class presentation. If you don't, then you simply aren't paying attention. | |||
|
One of Us |
Yup Well said! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Without RC's knowledge and wit, AR would be a lesser place. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
One of Us |
Thats a big 10-4  "Earth First, we'll mine the other planets later" "Strip mining prevents forest fires" | |||
|
| One of Us |
How old are you GIRLS anyway? Perry | |||
|
| One of Us |
Old enough  "Earth First, we'll mine the other planets later" "Strip mining prevents forest fires" | |||
|
One of Us |
I'm not sure I understand this. Is there hostility between these two individuals? Or, is this supposed to be humorous? I have read several of rcamuglia's posts and discussion starters and found them to be interesting, challenging, informative, and sometimes humorous, but nothing that I found too be harmful or really out of line. He seems to be an asset to the forum. As for the originator of this discussion, I don't know very much, but the original post seems out of line to me--under the wrong section (what does it have to do with hunting in America?) And, it doesn't seem to be very constructive to me. I, personally, do not care much for verbal attacks on others. I think we hunters, sportsmen, and reloaders need to support one another as much as possible. Red C. Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Old enough to know better and young enough to not care  | |||
|
| One of Us |
And I agree 100%.....but this isn't the real issue.....it's about the very basics of our sport....it's about ethical hunting..... Few things rile folks like such subjects as "hi-fence" hunting, buying wild game, dishonesty in drawings, using (clearly) target grade bullets for big game, and this subject....shooting big game beyond the limitations of the equipment.....and yes...some will even say beyond the ability of the hunter. Start any thread with any of these premises (and a bunch more) and prepare for disagreement....and to include name calling and all such behavior.....these subjects are at the heart of our sport and the unethical hunter forces all of us to bear a price for their behavior. Some of these threads are "borderline"....and the reaction isn't so fierce.....but in this case IMO the thread that started it is not borderline.... rcamuglia has been vocal and IMO reasonably so.....disagree all you want....he has made a point quite well.....actually the point was best made by Robert Wilde with his hilarious post about cavemen. I'm still laughing....that poor guy being dragged to her cave.....  But to expect any thread other than what we have here under the circumstances is just not reasonable.....and I, for one, salute rcamuglia for the way he went about his argument.... Well done sir! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sorry SD, I just saw your thread, so I haven't had the opportunity to respond.
| |||
|
| one of us |
Excellent posts by both of you. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey R, Another guy who used to post here had it as his Signature Line. I decided to save it because it explains Experienced Hunting Wisdom extremely well. Here it is: "A hunter should not choose the caliber, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong." - Bob Hagel | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks HC, woods, and Vapo. You all make the forums a wealth of invaluable accurate information.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Is this where we do the group hug?  Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
One of Us |
LMAO!!!!!!! -------------------------------------------- Nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home. | |||
|
one of us |
Everybody here knows I am the biggest ASSet to these forums. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
|
One of Us |
Rick has also won the National Fitasc championship and is one of the better shotgun guys around.. We have a common friend. I have met Rick and he seems to be a good guy. | |||
|
One of Us |
The only thing I know about rcamuglia, he was very proud of some Burris scopes he had for sale a few years ago.  If you still have them, let’s talk. $ 385.00 is a reasonable starting point. | |||
|
one of us |
I don't know Rick well, but I've met and shot with him a few times. While I don't know his specific rifle shooting/rifle hunting credentials, it sounds like he's well on his way to reaching similar status to his competitive shotgunning exploits. I'm guessing most of you don't follow competitive sporting clays, 5-Stand or FITASC, but Rick is one of THE MOST DECORATED competitors in the Western US. I believe he's been appointed to the All American shooting teams many times. In fact last weekend he competed in the National Championships and faired very well (top few percent) in all events. Anyone watching carefully on ESPN2 this past weekend also would have seen him as the guest on an outdoor show, introduced as a "Professional shooter for Browning". (They don't pay just anyone to go shooting and hunting!). This alone obviously doesn't qualify him as an expert in rifle shooting or long range hunting, but if he applies half of that drive and skill to rifle shooting and hunting he'll be ahead of most of the rest of us put together real soon (he may already be - as I said I don't know anything about his rifle shooting/hunting experience). As a bare minimum that background should make his opinions a valuable addition here. From what I've seen of his posts I think his biggest fault is that he hasn't yet learned what a waste to time it is to argue with anonymous people who spend their time picking keyboard fights (And no that's NOT directed at ANYONE in particular, it's just venting from too many frustrating experiences on forums from anonymous trouble-makers entertaining themselves by taking shots at fellow hunters and shooters). If my stupid signature line was ever appropriate it would be now... especially on election day. | |||
|
| One of Us |
He also feels he is the all knowing in caliber selection for Mule deer and is the all knowing in what exact distance each mule deer should not be shot at beyond with each particular caliber. If you don't believe me ask him. He also believes in crapping all over threads with his all knowing ego instead of just passing it by if he doesn't agree. When put in his place he leans on several of his little lap dogs to all dance around and turn pretty much everything into a joke. I could care less if he even knows which end of a rifle or shotgun should be pointed down range. Browning huh? Seems if thats the case he wouldn't act like such a JACKA$$ on open forums. But obviously he does no wrong, if you don't believe me. Ask him!! What a load of crap... -------------------------------------------- Nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The only load of crap around here SMACK!!!! is you. Give it up. You have lost big time. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Another lap dog arrives. -------------------------------------------- Nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home. | |||
|
| One of Us |
rcamuglia, Thanks for the reply, I just think that a guy with your experience can be a positive impact to the forum. Just seems you have been negative, and degrading lately. I like to read and learn from these forums and hate it when good information gets all mucked up in pissing contests. Yes, I have been guilty on occasion. If you present the information in a factual, nondegrading way, it will not come across as bragging. You have been there done that. I respect, and prefer those types of experiences. All you can do is present your information. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink mentality. I have serious personal opinions on many hunting issues. My philosophies vary greatly from many on this forum, but it is a free country. For example, I don't agree with longe range hunting. That is my personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less. From reading many posts, it works and is a valid hunting style. For me to come on and degrade people for hunting in that manner and tell them they shouldn't, and it doesn't work is ludicris? Those people would laugh at me. Why, because they know better. They have been there done that. Most importantly they enjoy all the aspects of that discipline. You seem to have this huge issue with people shooting critters with in your words "less than adequate" cartridges. But yet is has been shown time and time again that they work. In the mule deer thread you have a huge issue with the cartridge, I have more of an issue with the distance. But from what I have seen, Smack and his brother are more than capable in the distance category, and if you put a bullet in the right place, the end result will be just fine. What poses a bigger challenge to shot placement? A cartridge that is on the lower end of the adequate spectrum or a long distance shot? What if you take an average hunter and hand him a 22-250 loaded with Barnes TSX bullet and present him an average shot (125 yards)or give that same hunter one of your longe range set ups and expect him to make a 6, 7, or 800 yard shot? I know which scenario has the best chance of putting the bullet in the right spot. And proper bullet placement IS the MOST important factor in a clean kill. You cannot argue that. For every argument you pose against smaller cartridges, I can come back with an argument against long range hunting. In the real world, both work and are viable methods. | |||
|
| One of Us |
very enlightening thread, and not just about RCA. Rich DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
************************************************************************* The answer to your question is YES and YES. When you combine an inadequate cartridge with a long range shot like smack did, your chances of putting the bullet where you want it, in this case the vitals of a big game animal on the large size of the scale, are much less than with cartridges I would consider "adequate". IOW, your chances of wounding the animal, leaving it to run off never to be recovered ultimately to become coyote food, are greater than if you had taken the exact same shot with a caliber that I would consider to be "adequate". This is and will remain the crux of my arguement. You will remember that I emphasized this repeatedly in the thread I authored "Choosing the Grendel for a Long Range Deer/Elk Cartridge" If you have had any experience shooting small targets at long range you and others would understand. I will do my best to explain. There are many factors that effect the ability to accurately make hits with a rifle at long range. Among them are the Drop and Wind Drift of the projectile. There are factors that directly effect the Drop and Wind Drift of the projectile. Among them are the Velocity and Ballistic Coefficient of that projectile. Bullet ballistic coefficients are found through scientific testing; some use Doppler Radar to get the most accurate figure. The ballistic coefficient is the bullet's ability to resist drop and wind drift. Generally speaking, the faster a projectile can be fired the better the ballistic coefficient is preserved. I illustrated the ballistic differences between the Grendel and other common long range big game cartridges in the table I posted:
If one digests the data in the picture, one should conclude that the Grendel has TWICE the drop and TWICE the wind drift of the other standard cartridges. This makes hitting the target more difficult. Whether it is TWICE as difficult, I don't know but I would have to guess. I have shot different caliber rifles at long range and bullets in the same caliber rifle that differ as to ballistic coefficient. The ones with bullets that have smaller BC's are more difficult to make consistent hits. Now the factors of judging range and wind can be examined. The use of an accurate rangefinder can possibly remove the factor of drop. This is of course in the case of knowing exactly what the bullet is doing at every range which takes actual shooting and nailing down drop data for your load so that you simply have to dial in the correction. It also depends on ACCURATELY ranging your target and the actual atmospheric conditions accounted for at the time of the shot such as temperature, pressure, humidity at the elevation at your location. There exists the possibility of errors. Let's go to an extreme low velocity weapon; a hunting bow. If bow sights are adjusted to fit the velocity and drop of the arrow and the shooter mis-judges the range of the target by a mere 5 yards, the result could be a poor hit or a complete miss. This also is true for weenie cartridges at long range. The margin for error is much greater. The same goes with mis-judging the wind. I have observed wind at my shooting location as LEFT TO RIGHT, only to see the dirt from a miss at the target blowing RIGHT TO LEFT. Wind reading is an art and long range shooting is all about the wind and BC. smack and his brother mis-judged the wind as he said and the shot didn't impact where he wanted it. Luckily it was good enough. These things I've discussed are important to making an accurate long range shot. Purposely choosing the Grendel or any other caliber with similar ballistics risks the possiblity of not making a shot as accurate as it could be made with a ballistically superior round as shown. Making the choice to shoot big game animals with this type of cartridge can only be the result of Ego, Machisimo or Bravado to "see if it can be done". It displays utter disregard and devoid of respect for the game. *************************************************************************
***************************************************************************** Yes I can argue that and I have along with many others here on the forum. It will continue to be a subject in dispute and I'm sure nothing I contribute will change any minds. This is where energy comes into the equation for making a clean kill. Some have posted that "it's holes that kill, not energy". IMO It is tissue damage to vital organs that kill. Energy is dependent on projectile mass and velocity. Generally a projectile with more energy at the POI will create more damage to whatever it hits. If a marginal hit is made with an inadequate caliber, less damage will occur and the possibility of losing the animal is greater. You can see from the table that the 120 grain 6.5mm bullet fired from the low velocity Grendel cartridge has 1/3 or even less energy as compared to the other ballistically superior rounds. Can you imagine shooting an 800 pound elk at 400 yards with this round? smack touts it as impressive but it is simply irresponsible. To compliment the shot is irresponsible and encourages more folks to attempt it. Why wouldn't the "average hunter" choose a caliber based on Bob Hagel's signature line? The "average hunter" would be best advised to use a ballistically sufficient round as opposed to a round that takes bullet placement skill that is beyond what the "average hunter" can perform. The combination of shooting skill and adequate caliber is the best way to insure positive clean kills on the Big Game Animals we manage and revere at any range | |||
|
| One of Us |
Can't take back the time in my life it took to read that post, I guess in the future anyone that has decided on a caliber for hunting and wants to shoot past 150 yards on a mule deer please consult with rcamuglia and HE will let you know if HE agrees with such caliber and range combination. What rcamuglia does not understand, is that there are other hunters/ marksman in this world that are just as capable as he feels he is. We have had plenty experience with taking mule deer with many different cartridges. We knew the cartridge was capable, we knew the rifle and scope combo with the BDC hold overs was right and the money and plenty accurate and we knew in the right situation in the prone supported the bullet could be placed accurately, as it was. We also knew that the energy and the 6.5 120gr ballistic tip were completely up to such a task at such a distance. If we would have had any doubts the buck in question would have been taken with a .277 Cal 140gr Nosler accubond, due to the fact there were two on scene when the buck was planted cleanly with the Grendel. All it is in the end is rcamuglia opinion of the shot, everything else went off perfect. -------------------------------------------- Nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ray Taking your point from your last response. If Smack's brother is an above average shot, meaning he put the bullet exactly where it needed to be and the bullet/cartridge had the capability of doing the damage to organs it needed to. Isn't this whole post/rant irrelevant? Perry | |||
|
| One of Us |
You know, you guys are right. How foolish of me to post with thought, substance, facts, and statistics. Reminds me of a friend who walked out of a second storey apartment into a waist high railing, did a perfect complete sommersault, and landed safely on his two feet. True story. He just walked to his car and left. You guys should start recommending this method to folks you know as a good way to get to the ground level and avoid using the stairs since it works now and then. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Really??? That's your answer? Perry | |||
|
| One of Us |
And there it is, perfect.. rcamuglia 50 plus posts on this are all a irrelevant rant. -------------------------------------------- Nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home. | |||
|
| One of Us |
A bullet that that psses through an animal and exits is not inadequate. The ammo that Smack posted listed the velocity as 2550 FPS and you used 2400 FPS. You may well be an exce3llent shot but your rant is idiotic _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
My answer was in my post. I'm not going to take you all by the hand and lead you with quotes back through it all. We'll argue again about the same topic I'm sure sometime down the road, but if you have any more questions about my stance on this or how I got there, just refer to the big ole huge post above. I spent a lot of time with attention to detail on it and I have no more to say on the subject. If smack wants to show the board I'm wrong by putting on display the ballistic capabilities of the Grendel, he can join us who are "out there doing it" at Whittington center the first Sunday of every month starting in February. Best wishes to y'all.... | |||
|
| One of Us |
You claim the cartridge to be inadequate and the results PROVE other wise. Smack nor anyone one else claimed that the Grendal was the end all be all cartridge, therefore your rant comparing the Grendal to other cartridges is ridiculous. Results speak louder than words _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
