After Reading this thread and the responses...

it appears those that have rifles that can shoot subMOA are those that get out and shoot a lot, handload and learn to tweak their loads to fit the rifle...

So summary point being.. those that can not get at least some of their rifles to shoot subMOA are evidently those that are not spending enough time shooting them... the rifle may be subMOA but the shooter ISN"T!

Yet the same folks seem to have a trait of calling those who can shoot subMOA...derogatory names or insinuate that they are lying....

NOT pointing fingers mind you... because that summary applies to other places besides just this thread...

I am guilty of testing 10 and 15 different powder with ONE style of bullet in ONE rifle in ONE caliber.. to see what its potential is....

IN the case of two rifles, in the same caliber, from the same manufacturer.. I found that they would not shoot anything even close to "Minute of Elephant" at 100yds.... Then I stumbled upon one powder, with one charge weight, that both rifles loved.. with any bullet weight from 120 to 175 grains.... 40 grains IMR 3031, 7 x 57 Ruger Mk2..

Then it was a subMOA rifle ( both of them) until I went back to other powders... however, Reloader 7 also gave very very respectful performance.. as did IMR 4198....

So one has to work with a rifle to know what it can do somedays...

Some of the doubting Thomases ought to try it onc e in a while....

cheers
seafire

While I agree with you, Seafire, some of these claims are absolutely off the chart. Claims of consistant groups that would win most bench rest matches are an irritation to me. Perhaps the folks have shot A group of xxx but to claim their rifle shoots like that everytime out of the case is an affront to shooters that know better. Like the gun writers that take a NIB rifle, put a hunting style scope on it, shoot factory ammo and make accuracy claims that boggle the mind. I don't claim to be a very good shooter. (to me its like making love, you don't have to be good at it to enjoy it) But I didn't just come to town in a turnip truck.

I am humbled by some of the expertize on this thread, and believe with 7:00AM shooting, no wind, no mirage, and a benchrest - it can all be done. But I have an even more impressive stat. I've got a 75 year old hunting friend here in Idaho who shoots 1-2" groups off the hood of his pickup in the hot afternoon, here in windy Idaho. I have never seen him miss an animal, from ground squirrels to elk, in all the years I have known him.