Some of the claims on the "Hunting Accuracy" thread seem a little incredible to me. For all of you guys that have sub-1" or MOA guns I have some questions. What kinds of guns are these? Please be specific and tell any modifications done to stock rifles. Are they 3 or 5 shot groups? I assume they are 3shot, as that is common for hunting loads. What is your set-up, ie sand bags, shooting rest, or etc. Also, do you consistently shoot these groups, or are they your best group? Please be specific. thanks capt david

Idon't require my hunting rifles to shoot 3 shot MOA but they all do except an old 30-30 I keep around. It must be easy to get this level of accuracy because my rifles all do it with some tweaking of handloads, trigger adjusting and stock bedding. I do use a comfortable sand bag technique. I like accurate rifles, they allw me to take shots I wouldn't take otherwise.

Not every rifle I've owned will do MOA. The ones that did took some effort to get there. I've got a couple now that will do an honest MOA with 3 shots and on a few days will come in at MOA for 5. Both rifles were worked over by a good gunsmith ($) and I spent a lot of effort working up a load for each rifle ($). Out of the box MOA with factory loads? Very possible, just takes $. If you put money and effort into a rifle that is fundamentally sound you will probably be able to realize MOA accuracy in many cases.

Many varmint rifles should be able to shoot less than MOA. Not all big game rifles need to at all. Some of my rifles are quite accurate.

Another thing is that some can shoot better than others.

I know of a hunter/guide/target shooter from PA who does not post here these days. He was ranked very high nationaly for bench rest and he had his BR smith build him a 7mm-08 on a Remington with a Hart barrel. I have the pics. of the targets he shot with it here somewhere. The groups are just about all one hole at 100 yds with hunting bullets.

Sub MOA rifles are easy to find. Most any Savage will do it off of the shelf. Sub MOA shooters are harder to find. I can't do it unles I have a rest of some sort. Most of the time when hunting I steady myself off of something tree, pack, or blind.

I don't know where you are going with your question here but a modern bolt action rifle should shoot somewhere close to MOA from a benchrest situation or it is junk IMHO.

I agree with ElCaballero,
Most any (with few exceptions)modern production rifle will shoot 1-MOA with some sort of factory ammo. And within any production model you will find one that shoots horribly. This is probably due to worn tooling at the factory. Most of the time you can take a new gun back to the dealer you bought it from and he will either check it out and adjust, or send it back to the factory for you. This assumes that the dealer is reputable.

Sub MOA production rifles are few and far between, but they are out there.

Capt David,

I'll try to provide a comprhensive answer.

My sub MOA rifles have been 4 remingtons, 2 winchesters, 1 ruger, 1 savage.

They are 3 shot groups off of bags where I use pressue on the front bag to djust the rifle.

I generally load hornady interloks as I find them to be very accurate in all my guns. I usually find Nosler partitins to open up groups by about 3/8 of an inch or so.

I often find the Hornday Custom Ammo to be sub MOA.

The typical modifications I make are to have the rifle bedded and the trigger tuned. I leave the issue of free float or forend pressure to the gunsmith.

I also use Leupold dual dovetails mount where ever I can. I eventually convert most of my rifles to that set up unless there is some reason not too. I also like to have them re-drilled to 8x40.

From a reloading perspective I use H4350 as I find it to be very accurate in anything from a 6.5x55 to 375HH.

I normally load 10/1000 of the lands or as longas the mag box will let me.

I re-cut the primer pockets and de bur the flash holes and re-trm the cases every third loding.

I have no if any of the above is necessary but most of my rifles will do 3/4 of an inch or better.

If I really wnat a rifle to be accurate I send it to Fred Zeglin and have him do an action tune and re-cut the chamber. Fred has produced three 1/2 inch hunting rufles for me all with factory bbls.

None of the above is necessary for hunting purposes...I do it for fun

All my rifles are custom Mod 70s. Pre wars, pre 64s and custom classics. I prefer Krieger (except my 300 win was built by Charlie Sisk and it sports a Lilja barrel) and Conetrol mounts, German Zeiss scopes. Since they are all custom, no bedding is actually needed as the action to stock fit is perfect.

I don't have any stock rifles- if I buy a stock rifle all I want is the action, I let my gun shop guy cannabilise the rest.

I suck at shooting. I've tried rests, the ones that are one piece two piece, etc....I still suck.

My best groups (3 shot)have been in the .4s outside to outside with a .270 so around .12s (1/8)- that is with a wood stocked pre war mod 70. Ask Soverns for a pic. I usually can put two in the same hole/touching with all my rifles, but fuck up the third. I have no patience at the bench.

I'm anal about powder and velocity. I chrono my loads and most spreads are in the single digits- my best 270 load was +/- 0, 1, 3, 7 fps (5 shots). Barrel harmonics to me is the key to good groups.

I am not in the same catagory as some of the posters, I have had a remington that out of the box with reloads was MOA with 110gr, 165gr and 180 gr. Currently I have a 96 swede that I sporterized including trigger and with the original barrel and reloads is MOA with 129gr (note all Hornady). I also have an H&R single shot that with some tlc and the right reloads is MOA. On the other hand, I have a 35 Whelen built on a 1917 receiver that is driving me nuts. Fiberglass stock, glass bedded, and I cannot get 3 shot groups under 2 inches. WHY MOA....the challenge and its FUN... On another note, I have a .36 TC Seneca with iron sights that will shoot MOA at 40 yrds....when I do my part. Some people watch football, others basketball. Me, I would rather be at working on a rifle, go to the range or fish.

1) Remington model 700 BDL .338 RUM
trigger job
muzzle brake
225 Barnes TSX 96.5 H1000 .030 from lands
3 shot group--Caldwell benchrest--100 yards
BEST group-- .4"
AVG. Group (20-25 3 shot groups-- sum of center to center of widest spread/ number of groups)
---- .71"
AVG. Group if I remove "shots I pulled and called when they occured"---- .62"

Data collected between June and August of 2005--no wind--Avg. temp about 80 F.
# shot groups fired and then about 15 minutes before next group---about 4-5 groups per session.

Hope this answers your question?

IV

I like to shoot, reload, and generally tinker with all my firearms. Have been doing it for 35+ years. I also have a very talented gunsmith who can do wonders with any firearm, action, and trigger. What I really love, tho, is to properly execute a stalk and then watch a perfect one-shot kill on an animal during hunting season. It doesn't matter the range, as long as I can get no closer. This is the reason I practice all year long, and the animal deserves nothing less. The accuracy of the weapon removes one of the variables in the equation. That said, I won't own an inaccurate rifle (greater than 1.5-2"), even tho plenty of hunters are satisfied with "minute of animal" guns. Most all of the good ones have been Remington 700's, several Win Model 70's, two Savage's, and I have never kept a Ruger more than one year ('nuff said on that). I also use a laser rangefinder, as much as possible.

My most accurate rifle is an early Rem 700 SS in 7 Rem. Mag, with heavy barrel, action tuned, and a 2.5# trigger. Handloads with IMR4350 and 140 grain Nosler old-style Solid Base bullets. Best group of my life is a witnessed (that's the key!) 1.91" outside, 5-shot group at 300 yards, from prone, on the National Guard range here in town.

I have Model 11 GL Savage 300WSM that is pillar bedded from the factory, with a gunsmith trigger job (3 Lbs) and a new crown that will shoot 3 shot groups into 1" from sandbags, off of a solid bench every time. If, the wind is consistent and I do my part and don't pull a shot.
The load is:
Hornady 180 grain interlock and H4831SC
Winchester brass, sorted by weight, collet sized, flash holes uniformed.

I have another Savage 110CL in 243Win, glass bedded into an MPI stock, with a Sharpshooter Supply trigger.
Off of sandbags and a solid bench it will put three different loads into 1" or less consistently if weather and my skills are optimium.
The loads are:
5 shot groups -58 grain Hornady Vmax,IMR4064, in Winchester brass, weight sorted, flash holes uniformed, etc. (It will also shoot 1" off of a Harris bipod with a rear sandbag, prone)
5 shot groups - 70 grain Hornady HP, IMR4064 in the same brass.
3 shot groups - 85 grain Nosler partition BLC2, the same brass

I have a Ruger 77MKII 7mm Mag pillar and glass bedded into the factory laminate stock, gunsmith trigger job (2.5 Lbs) new crown that will shoot only one 3 shot group under 1" consistently.
Load is 140 grain TSX with H4831SC in Remington brass, sorted for weight, flashholes, etc.

These are all guns where when I'm shooting well do not have any unexplained groups or fliers. If it doesn't shoot into 1", I know it is something that I have done wrong and I can identify the fault right then.

I own two 7mmstws that consistantly average 3 shot 1/2" groups.I also own two 300ultramags that consistantly shoot 3 shot 5/8" groups.All four are built on trued and lapped 700 actions with premium barrels and are pillar bedded into mcmillan stocks.All loads used are handloads.All groups are fired off sandbags but not using any type of gun vise.

Blank,

Was that National Guard range there between June 1, 1973 and June 23, 1975? I lived in IF during that time. I was just a kid then who couldn't afford a rifle or the ammo to shoot in it. My economic profile has vastly improved since then, to be sure. I lived on Brenthaven Drive, directly across from Skyline High School. IF was a nice, little town in those days. I was back there in July 2004 for a day or two, and it's much too big now. You must have more stoplights per capita than any town in America of similar size. Whew!!

Were you here in the Navy for that period? Yeah, I hear you about the traffic and getting too big. On Friday and Saturday night, all 50K people are on 17th Street!!!!!!!! You should see the Fourth of July fireworks, with 80-100K people all jammed up at the river.

The NG range is the one west of town; used to shoot Hi-Power out there, not open to public anymore, but we have the Skyline Gun Club and also the Silhouette range where you can shoot. Haul your stuff 20 miles in any direction and shoot on the 2 million acres of BLM or USFS .

I will work on the bedding and the trigger first. These are just required for all my rifles. Then float the barrel not just 2 or 3 pieces of paper either about 1/32 per side. If this doesn't get me in the 1" range I will work up a load. If that doesn't work and it isn't drop dead gorgeous trade it. Just me. Also I use a bench, adjustable rock style front rest sand bags and I setle my scope on the bull when I dry fire the reticle on the highest power setting doesn't moove the gun at all. (If the gun mooves when dry fired your groups will suffer.)

If I had a rifle that shot 1.25" real 5-shot groups I'd consider it a "keeper".....I assure I've had several of my rifles shoot better than that.....but consistantly.....heck.....it's the internet...remember?

I have a couple that are way under the 1MOA, a Remington 700 built 30-plus years ago by Ed Brown of .45 fame when nobody knew who he was. It is a .220 AI Swift that has its third barrel a 1-12 Douglas. I shot a 3- shot group this morning .380 with it. It wears a fiberglass stock, a 40X trigger and EB used the striker from a Mod. 600 Remington on it, supposed to help lock time. I have a 700 VLS that with H335 and a Sierra 52 bullet has never shot a 5- shot group over .5, I think that was over 21 shot strings. It is bone stock with a 12X Leupold, interestingly enough it will shoot .5 with Remingon 55 factory ammo, and shoots about 1.25 with any other ammo. My Ruger RSM in .416 Rigby of all things is a consistent MOA gun, I shot a 3- shot group .890 this morning as well with 370 North Forks and 105 grains of H4831SC. It has not been touched, except I did a trigger job on it myself. There were a couple of other casual shooters at the range who couldn't believe a rifle like that would group into an inch. It has a 1.75-6x Leupold with a Premier Reticle German 3-post. My Ruger 7x57 has had the trigger worked by me as well, and the barrel floated, will shoot 3 in a consistent .7-.8 with 140 TSX's and H414, everything else in it is 1.25 in. My Sako in 7 Mag will shoot .75 for 5- shots with RL22 and 175 Nosler partitions, no light bullets shoot worth a damn in it. It is an old Classic stock Sako that hasn't had any modifications, but is damn near worn out from hunting. I have a CZ in 9.3x62 and a Whitworth in .375 that are in and out of the 1 in. range with good handloads, but I won't claim them to be under 1 MOA rifles. I also have a bunch more that won't shoot 1 MOA, as does everyone else. I almost forgot this one, my .257 Weatherby with RL22 and 100 TSX will surely go under 1 MOA for three shots as long as you keep it clean, it fouls enough in 15-20 shots that the group size will go up. I find a lot of people shoot too fast at the range to achieve their best accuracy with a light barreled rifle, you need to let them cool off, some of mine, especially the 7 Mag will really chang ethe group size if you get it hot.

Captdavid

Varmint riles and hunting rifle to me are different animals. In a varmint rifle if it won’t shot .5 MOA or less it’s gone.

With hunting it depends on what your using it for. I’ll tell you now my .378 Weatherby won’t shoot MOA. That may be the rifle and a little bit of me. It will however shoot pretty consistent 1.75 in groups a little better if I really do my part.

Most of my hunting rifles have specific uses. I’m not the; oh if you could just have one rifle kind of guy. I’m not much of a compromiser when it comes to hunting. I some areas where I have hunted your long shot was going to be under a 100 feet and MOA doesn’t make much sense. I usually just use my Dad’s old 32 Winchester Special. Now in other areas as hunting conditions change so do my requirements of a weapon. A rifle shooting 1.25-inch groups in my opinion is about a 300-yard gun. Had a couple of them they are now sold and gone.

My oldest and first new big game gun purchase was a Remington 7MM Mag in 1973. I still own the gun today. It has always shot pretty good 1.25 with factory ammo. That’s when I discovered hand loading. Adjusted the trigger down to about 2.75 pounds, new synthetic stock and bedded the action. Ever since then the rifle has shot a .75 MOA. Year in a year out never changes when I take it to the range each year to zero it’s five shots and the thing goes back into the case.

I’ll have to tell that is a real confidence builder to have a rifle that shoots like that. All my zeroing is done off a rest at a range and bench. A pretty controlled environment. That is pretty much the regiment that all my hunting rifles go through. You know the gun shoots. Yes probably better than you are capable of in a hunting environment.

When I go out hunting I know my rifle and I know my shooting skills. At this point in my life I don’t take the really long shots anymore on big game. I do feel confident enough if I can get a natural rest to shoot to 400 and 500 yards, 300 to 350 freehand is my limit. With a 1.25 MOA piece of equipment I won’t feel that way. Every year I do a lot of practice off hand shooting 22’s and center fires at ranges from 50 to 350 plus yards it pays off.

The big thing is lots of folks really shoot some tremendous groups off the bench. That’s the only way they shoot until hunting season. Then off hand they get a 50-yard shoot and miss. My Uncle was my mentor in hunting. Arne always encouraged me to shoot off hand. We’d shoot 8†paper plates tacked to trees at 100 yards free hand. He told me when I could hit that plate 5 out of 5 times at a hundred yards he would take me hunting. I could do it the second year we were shooting together. That old man knew more about hunting than anyone I’ve seen since then. He only had one large game gun a Rock Island sporterized 30-06. I can’t remember when he didn’t bring game home. We had some very good experiences together over the years.

I've had several real "shooters" over the years. My definition is CONSISTENT same point of impact with groups of 1 1/2" or less @ 100 yds. Talking of a bench with hunting appropriate loads.
Anything that groups better is just icing on the cake.

Rem 700 26" Douglas #3 taper in a Brown precision stock,straight glass bedding of the action and first few inches of the bbl. Originally a .280 Rem, later rechambered to .280 AI. BOTH chamberings have shot 1" for 5 shots with 150 or 160 gr NP's. Took my biggest elk to date with this gun right at a lasered 400 yds.

Winchester M70 CRF circa 1997. Stock except for bedded action. .375 H&H With 300 Sierras it will group just a tad over an inch all day long off the bench. I've won a few accuracy bets with this one. Does it's best work with a 3.5-10X scope but has a 1.5-5X in Talleys otherwise.

Sako with a 24" Hart barrel in .300 H&H. Brown precision stock. With 180 NP's or 190 Hornady BTSP's over H4831 it's a 1" for 3 shots at 100 yds. Neat thing is at 200 yds the groups only open up a bit more, generally under 1 1/2" for three shots.

Weatherby Ultra Lt Wt in .280 Rem. Box stock. Action never out of the stock or even a screw turned. With a 2.5-8X Leupold , 4 rds in the mag and a lt nylon sling it weighs an ounce under 7 pounds. With 150gr NP's over IMR4831 it has done a few 200 yds 3 shot groups microscopically under an inch; .990", .980" etc. Have shot several whitetails at 250-350 yds. A very consistent rifle, pt of impact hasn't varied in FIVE years. I can put my yearly pre hunting season sight in targets one on top of the other and the groups are all +2" and hover at an inch or less.

Pre 64 Win 70 Hart 22" bbl. Originally a boring .30-06. PJ Hart had a .25 bbl that a customer had returned. He turned it to match the original bbl and we did a .257 Roberts AI. I've only had it for three years but it seems to be another one with a very consistent point of impact. Shot a good whitetail with it at 365 yds two years ago.

Cooper SS in .222 Rem. Have shot a few .4" groups at 100 yds but this guy EASILY shoots an inch or under. EVEN with me and my lousy eyes behind it. With a good bench shooter we got the .40" 5 shot group. His first two groups were .48" and .55" all five shots.

Really good shooting rifles are IMHO fairly common. Especially with a little bit of work.
On the other hand........I've surely had several that NO amount of coaxing was able to make them shooot better than 1 1/2" + or worse.

Bench rested groups are fine but I also check the POI at 100 and 200 yds prone with a Harris Bipod. At times the POI will shift from the bench to holding the rifle free hand. The bench is fine but one needs to practice from field positions a lot to be truly capable for hunting.

FN in MT

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
Were you here in the Navy for that period?

I was there as an instructor in 1985 - 1988, loved it then.

All rifles were accurized, blueprinted, or whatever term you prefer, all bbls match grade SS, all bedded, floated, most have Pachmyer decel pads, etc.:

Jensen's custom ammunition's riflesmith, Ruger MK II, 270 Win, 25.5" Hart #1 contour bbl., glass bed, 3# trigger, stock shortened to 12 and 3/4" LOP. SUB MOA with TSX, Btips, ABs, Sciroccos, partitions, and aframes.

Richards Rifle Co., Remington BDL 700, 270 Win. 24" Broughton-Richards bbl. sporter magnum contour. Rimrock stock. Easiest rifle I ever worked up a load for....very NONpicky. SubMOA with 140AB, 150Btip, 130 partition, and 130Aframe.

Mickey Coleman Rem BDL 700, 270 Win, H-S Precision stock, 24.5" Lilja bbl. #3 contour, SubMOA with 150 Btips, 130 scirocco, 130 SST, and 150 Npartitions.

John Noveske, Rem BDL 700, 30.06, 22" factory contour fluted PacNor bbl., pillar bedded factory stock, shoots regularly in the .3's and .4's with 168 TSX, 180 TSX. 1/2" factory 165 Btips from Federal. 180 AB, 200 AB, 180 Speer spitzer, and 180 Npartitions. All SubMOA. Lapua or WW brass.

Shilen Co., Rem BDL 700, 300 RUM, H-S Precision stock, 28" Shilen select match grade #4 contour bbl., (special order), Muzzle break, SubMOA with 200 AB and Re25 or RETUMBO, also 180 TSX, and 180 partitions.

Shilen Co., Rem BDL 700, 7 Rem Mag, pillar bedded factory stock, #4 contour Select match grade Shilen (special order), Muzzle break, 24". 150 NBTs from .3's to one holers with good frequency now. 150 Sciroccos and IMR4350 or H1000 1/2".

I use a sandbag rest front and rear. All rifles shoot subMOA repeatedly, or I'm not done with them.

To date, the 7mag, the Richards Rifle CO 270, and the Ruger 270 have one holed 3 shots on more than 3-4 occasions.

I'm using 30.06 Lapua brass for the Richards Rifle Co. 270 obviously necked down.

All triggers are either Jewels set to 1#, or factory worked to a crisp 2#.

I've got a bone stock no modifications Win M70 Supergrade in .338 Win Mag shooting factory Federal 225 grain "classics" best group three shots at 100 yards measured center to center .264". Any day when I'm doing my job behind the trigger it always shoots under 1", mostly under .75" and shot lots of groups at .5".
I'm thinking this is bordering on extremely fine accuracy with a stock gun and factory loads.
Scope is a 3-9x50 Leupold Vari-x II.

I also have my old standby rifle that I use for most game hunting it is a Winchester M70 Lightweight pushfeed in 30/06, this gun was very picky until I figured out it really likes a 180 grain spitzer boat tail bullet and 56 grains of IMR 4350, this is a .75" to 1.00" gun everytime I shoot it. It is bone stock, I adj. trigger and it wears a 3-9x40 Vari-x II
A couple others

Ruger M77 Ultra Light .257 Roberts with it's favorite load it shoots .5" to .75"


Win M70 pushfeed Lightweight Carbine .243 with factory WW 100 grain it shoots a 1.0" group with my loads it shoots .625"

I also have a Win M70 Classic Stainless .375 H&H that nearly qualifies, it shoots Federal 270 grain "classics" ( factory load) to a 1.25" group but this is with a 1.5-5 Leupold on it, I think with the 2.5-8 that I'm putting on it the group size will shrink down to sub MOA with no gun mods to any of these rifles except I've adj. triggers on almost all of them.
All shots are from sandbags front and rear at the bench ( sandbags are homemade from pant legs filled with sand and sewn up).

I too feel that most guns fitted with a proper scope, clean bore and the right ammo whether that be factory or handloads will group 1". Sometimes it takes a little patience and some slight tweaking like free floating but in my experience 95% of the bolt guns I've owned will do that.

quote:

Originally posted by captdavid: What kinds of guns are these? Please be specific and tell any modifications done to stock rifles. Are they 3 or 5 shot groups? I assume they are 3shot, as that is common for hunting loads. What is your set-up, ie sand bags, shooting rest, or etc. Also, do you consistently shoot these groups, or are they your best group? david

I have 2 centerfire rifles that qualify, a Winchester 70 in 7 mm magnum and a Remington 700 in 6mm-284.

The Winchester is dead stock; all of the work went into the reloads and the money into a Leupold scope to replace the one it came with.

The Remington was a heavy-barreled .243, was rechambered and lugs lapped by a gunsmith in Fairfield, CT. He did a nice job. It didn't take much more. I did pillar-bed the stocks I've put it in, but that wasn't too hard as I had a nice lathe and mill to work with.

The Winchester is good for three shots MOA, after that it's just luck.

The Remington will go a few more, but I have never pushed it as I don't want any un-necessary barrel heating. Anybody who wants to can educate me on this point.

Ah, consistency. When I measure groups I shoot off a sandbag, and when hunting try to shoot off a fanny pack that acts just like a sandbag. If I can't get MOA out of one of them, it's most likely me.

The stock the Remington came in had problems with humidity, so I got a synthetic stock and the problem went away.

The Winchester just is what it is. The first two shots differ by a half-inch horizontally, and the third is southeast of the first two by about 3/4", and that's what "is" is. It has its limitations but does what a hunting rifle needs to do.

Winchester vs Remington? I dunno, sample size is too small to draw any conclusions.

I've got 3 rifles that will put every shot in 1 MOA unless I cause them not too.
One Rem 700 ADL in 25-06 shooting handloads with 120gr. HP Hornadys.
One Rem 788 in .222 shooting handloads 50gr. Hornadys
And you probably won't believe this last one.
A sporterized Springfield 03 with the original 2 groove barrel turned down to a sporter contour shooting a compressed load of IMR 4831 pushing a 165gr. Hornady Spire Point

I usually won't keep a gun that is not accurate. I collect Husqvarna 1900 series rifles and the large majority shoot under an inch, several will consistently shoot under .75 inch, and I have a 300 Mag that will consistently make a single ragged hole. All of these rifles are early 1970's. If the barrel is in good shape, the rifle is not picky about ammo. If there is pitting or if the lands are not sharp, then I have to work up the load to tighten the group. In every case, accuracy improves by floating the barrel. Glass bedding sometimes improves the group, but not always. All shooting for groups is done from the bench with sandbags or an adjustable rest. Groups are 3 shots

I also have several Remington 700's that also shoot under an inch. These are early Remington so I have tweaked the triggers. Again the barrel is floated. Calibers are 223, 25-06, 308. I also have a Remington 700 in 375 H&H. It has a custom barrel and action is glass bedded. It will shoot under an inch with 300 gr. bullets, any brand, any design. If you drop to 260 or 270 gr., the group spreads out to 3".

The only rifles that do not shoot under an inch are the lever guns. However, I put a Wild West trigger in two Marlins and there was a great improvement. I guess I also have a Ruger 10-22 that is pretty poor beyond 50 yards.

I firmly believe that the large majority of production rifles will, with only slight tweaking, shoot MOA. It is not unusual to have to experiment a little with ammo. More often than not, the shooter is not up to the task. I have had many rifles brought to me with an accuracy problem. When I have test fired them, most would shoot MOA. When I asked the owner to show me how he set up for accuracy, inevitably the problem was the shooter, most often a subconscious flinch.

Always remember that it is a mind game!

My rifles are(and have been) bone stock.These are all 3 shot groups.

Currently I have:

Savage 116BSS .270 WSM .22 MOA with 140 Accubonds

Savage 116 .300 Rum .5 MOA with handloads

Browning A-Bolt .338 Mag .75 MOA with handloads

Rock River Arms AR-15 Varminter .4 MOA w/handloads

Rem 700 .270 Win .5 MOA w/handloads

I did have a Browning A-Bolt in .300 Mag that I had a hard time getting below MOA, but finally got there with the proper handloads. I won't keep a gun that shoots over an inch. I use a bag at the rear and a regular benchrest front with a small bag on it. I have only adjusted the triggers on most of these rifles, nothing more!!

quote:

Originally posted by SD Shooter:
I firmly believe that the large majority of production rifles will, with only slight tweaking, shoot MOA.

I believe this also. At least that's been my experience.

Beyond that, I have been stocking or building my own rifles for the last 25 years, wood and close inletting. I full length bed barrels with slight upward pressure. I sometimes will relieve the bottom of the barrel channel with a pressure point about 4" from the tip of forearm. Never a visible gap between wood and metal, however. They all shoot within the above tolerance. More importantly, with few exceptions, they don't change point of impact year to year. I just couldn't justify spending the time and effort to inlet, shape, finish, and checker a nice piece of walnut......and intentionally leave a gap between wood and metal for the whole length of the barrel. It doesn't gain anything meaningful to me, and if I was going to do it, I might just as well hog out the whole thing and piller bed it.

I really don't think there's much magic in achieving MOA anymore. And I've never been personally handicapped with a rifle that shot "only" that good.

GV

All but 2 (K98 scout 9,3x62 & FN O/U 9,3x74R) of the rifles I own/keep shoot < MOA with 5 shots + handloads. I've had many that didn't but they left quickly. Calibers go from .222, .22-250, 7x64, .308, .300 Win (2), .338 Win, 9,3x62. Rifles are :
- out of box condition : Sauer 202, Blaser R93 (3), Rem Sendero ;
- rebarreled & bedded : Ruger Mk II VT ;
- restocked & rebarreled : Win 70.

I have two rifles now that shoot MOA. Both are Savages, one in 25-06 and one in 300WM. For hunting guns I shoot 3 shot groups from a bench with a sandbag rest. I throw out groups that have an obvious flier caused by shooter error (approximately 10%), when I know I've flinched etc.. Once the rifle can shoot 1" with this setup I take it off the bench and shoot from field positions.

The 300 shot MOA with Hornady Factory ammo and does a bit better with handloads. I have done trigger work and bedding on both guns. The 300 has an aftermarket stock.

The 25-06 started as an 1 1/2" rifle. It gradually worked it way down to 1" as I got better handloads and did the trigger work etc..

Both of these rifles shoot better than I can. I have had a lot of trouble trying to turn these guns into 3/4" shooters. I can't seem to consistently break that barrier. It is probably a reflection of my shooting skills. I'm still working on it, tinkering with loads and shooting technique.

I would imagine that I could take a broomstick and if I sent it to enough gunsmiths and they did enough aftermarket work on it, it could be a sub-MOA.
I shoot 5 shot groups. Even with the magnums. I just let them cool a bit more. I often shoot several rifles at several different targets in rotation. One shot each until the groups are done. And most of my rifles are stock 700's, pre and post J locks or 788's. As posted, I have found with a little tweaking, they will shoot MOA or less. Almost without exception.
Among the rifles I own which will shoot 7 out of 10 5shot groups into a MOA or less are:
1 7mag BDL, 1 300winnie Classic, , 1 7-08 Classic, 1 7-08 ADL Douglas rebarrel, 1 788 7-08 Douglas rebarrel, 1 788 .260 Douglas rebarrel. I also own a 300Savage Classic and a 8 mauser Classic that I've done little with but I don't doubt they'll come in when I get to them. I have a 45 year old 700 in 30-06 that useta shoot MOA or better but the throat is going and a .280 Classic that I had just gotten when I got bitten by the 7-08 bug so the only thing that has been done with it is shoot it. Those two rifles will shoot 1.25-1.5 groups.

When I get a new rifle, I first take it apart and look for any obvious flaws or defects. And clean it good. I adjust the trigger, 2# varmint, 3.5# hunting, mount a single high power, target style scope, and shoot it. Using a homemade generic ammo. Something that has worked well in another rifle or is reccommended by one of the load books. Sometimes, it stops there. I have done nothing to my 7mag except clean it and shoot it since I've owned it (one always assumes a new Rem is gotta have the trigger adjusted). If not, I start playing around with the rifle and the loading. I'll bed the action and the recoil lug and play around with the pressure point. It might be of interest that all of the rifles except the 788s and the ADL rebarrel STILL HAVE the pressure points in them. Just to make sure the point is needed, I jack the action out of the stock using shims on the action screws until the barrel is free and shoot a few groups like that. Since I much prefer range time over shop time, my reloading is fairly straightforward. And could be considered almost minimalist. While I do believe each rifle has an optimum load combination and several that will be close, I don't believe in some sort of magic load that will turn a 3" shooter into a tack driver. I don't weigh cases nor turn necks for hunting ammo. I will for factory matches. And I would if we were betting money on any of the above rifles ability to shoot MOA groups.
After I've developed what I consider to be a good load, I'll tinker slightly with the bullet jump and call it happy. I rarely have more than one prime load per rifle. I work up what I consider the best bullet/powder/case/etc and use it on everything. If I want a greater or lesser weight of metal, I'll choose another rifle. For practice, I use the cheapest bullets I can find from a name manufacturer and switch over to the good stuff for my hunting or match ammo. And that brings out one of the most important facets of having a MOA rifle: practice, practice, practice. That is the one thing you can't buy.

I've always found it fairly easy to achieve sub-moa groups from just plain ole' factory M700s, M70s, and Savages.

I don't like to keep a rifle unless it will shoot 3 shots less than an inch at 100 yards consistently (say 2 out of three groups) unless it is a close range gun like a 30-30 or a Mler.

As far as Centerfire Bolt Guns,I currently have 5 M700s and 2 Savages that will shoot sub MOA w/ the Handloads I've worked up for them. Yes, some were a little picky but, once a good load was found they are consistent.

I've got 3 that will shoot 1/2" and better. One, a 700 Police 300 Win Mag (Bone Stock), will flat out stack em', it is very common to put three through one jagged hole at 100 and 3 at less than an inch at 200 w/ that rifle.

I'd say 200+ yards is where you seperate the great ones from the good ones. I've only got two rifles that will consistently put 3 in less than 1 inch at 200 both Factory rifles w/ the exception of one having an HS Precision stock for an upgrade.

I would imagine the rifles I currently have would shoot much better If I had them Bedded into HS Precisions or Mcmillans but, I just don't see the need when they already shoot less than MOA in their Factory config.

I've got a 30-30 that will only shoot 2"-3" at 100 but, when I use it the ranges are very short(brush).

I shoot off Bags, Rest, or Bipods to get the above achieved.

Good Luck

Reloader

Out of the 30 some rifle's I have owned over the years. I have only had 2 that I could not get to shoot under 1inch at 100 yards. One was a Rem 700 7mm mag and the other was a Winchester M70 243. I got rid of both. I find if you get a Rem 700, Sako, or Tikka they shoot like a house of fire. As for a group I shoot 3 or 5 shot groups off the bench with pads to test the rifle's accuracy. I start at 100 yards and after I find a one hole group or close I shoot that load again at 300 yards. If the load shoots 1inch or less at 300 yards and I like the ES,and SD the load is good to go. As for testing my accuracy not the rifles I shoot off a bipod anywhere from 300-600 yards. Most people think you have to shoot off a bench to get good groups but when you get good with a bipod it is almost like shooting on the bench. Sometimes I will shoot a faster group but I am trying for accuracy not speed of fire. I would rather make the first one count then the 4th if you know what I mean. Even on running game I take my time with my shots and since I have been doing that my hit ratio has gone way up.

I have a "custom" Encore with a 26" full bull Virgin Valley barrel in 300WSM that will easily do under 1" at 100 all day any day with factory Winchster Supreme 150 gr ballistic silvertips. I have recently bought a Blaser R93 in 300WSM that will do the same with the same ammo. My son who is 11 has an Encore in 270 with a 26" Custom Shop barrel that will do 1-1 1/2" with Winchester Supreme 130 gr ballistic silvertips. I have other guns that I have done 1" or under with, but none are as consistent as the above mentioned. I generally shoot sand bags at the range, but I have recently bought a Caldwell lead sled that has greatly improved my shooting consistency.

I do not hunt with a rifle that does not shoot 1" groups. What I do is glass the bed and float the barrel. Triggers are set a 2.5 and the length of pull is 13 3/8.
I worked up a load for a friends 270 in a Savage 110 and was surprised when I shot 5 rounds in a half inch hole even with a stiff trigger.
Is being that picky necessary? NO NO NO
Since I am a reloader and have the time to glass beds and float barrels and work up loads then I can set my standards high. All it basically does is removes excuses. Like anyone else I steady myself on something before taking that field shot for meat.

.250-3000 Rem 700 Nosler 100 gr partitions over Reloader 15 2.6" OAL - 100 meters w/ 1/2 value l-r variable wind of 0-10 mph.

Successive groups, first from a cold unfouled bore. Will it do that consistantly? With those loads probably, if I've had some breakfast and the coffee hot. I've got several rifles that fill the bill...like the man said, I do it because I enjoy it, not because it's always required.

captdavid ----- I shoot two Winchester pure stock rifles that have never seen a gunsmith. One in .300 win mag that has a 3 X 9 Redfield scope and it will shoot one hole groups for me and my son, when we do our part, all reloads. The other is in .270 WSM and has a 4.5X14 Ziess Conquest scope and it will shoot .5 inch groups, all reloads. I have two other Model 70 Winchesters that are both customs that have been tweaked and tricked as much as possible and have muzzle brakes, both in .358 STA, all reloads. They both have shot many one hole groups on their best days and mine. I have a cheap sporter Model Weatherby in .340 with a 4X16 Burris Signature scope, with a muzzle brake that is stock all the way that will shoot one hole groups on good days, all reloads. I also have a .338 Lapua with a 4.5X14 Ziess Conquest scope that has been tricked out with it all, plus a muzzle brake and it will shoot one hole groups on good days, all reloads. I have a stock Model 70 Winchester Laredo in 7mm STW with Boss and 6.5X20 Leupold scope, that has shot dozens of one hole groups, all reloads. I have a stock Weatherby Accumark with a 6X24 Burris scope that has shot many one hole groups, all reloads. I shoot a Winchester Safari Classic in .416 Remington with a 3X9 Ziess Conquest scope and muzzle brake that has shot a few one hole groups, with Superior Ammo factory and reloads. I have a .416 Rigby in #1 Ruger with a Ziess Consquest that has shot one hole groups, all reloads. When I say one hole groups I mean a three shot group with all holes touching each other for Magnum chamberings and five shot groups for standard chamberings. ----- These are all hunting rifles that work hard and play hard and they have been from home to New Mexico, Colorado near Laramie Wy twice, and Colorado near Craig each year, since 1992, Alaska several times, Alberta and Africa once each. My shooting days are each a new adventure as far as accuracy goes, some days I can shoot several one hole groups with different rifles, some days I cannot buy one with a million dollars, when they happen, it is a fun day, when they don't, I look for reasons why, and usually it is me. Good shooting.

I hunt whitetail with a Remington PSS .308 Win.
It has a HS precision stock and a 26 inch sporter barrel on it. I had a trigger job done to it but thats the only modification and I can consitently do 5 shot groups less than 1 inch.

A guys got to have something to do when he's not hunting! I have a backyard range and can shoot anytime the weathers decent. I fiddle with loads, bedding, crowns, triggers, scopes and mounts,tea leaves and chicken bones,till I get it to shooting under MOA. If it won't do it, I keep spending money on components and fiddling with it till it does. Tell the wife it keeps me out of bars and other womens bedrooms.

All of my guns are off the shelf guns that have "at-home" trigger jobs. I'm with RELOADER on this one, I've found that a little extra care with the reloading and a good bench set-up such as a "Benchmaster" or a "Lead-Sled", etc. will help a lot.

I'm not the bragging type of person but in good well maintained gun, even reloading for buddies, i've been able to get sub inch groups easily.

All of my guns shoot about 1/2inch groups with Barnes and Sierra bullets and there is nothing custom about the gun. Even though it took some time and patience, I got the original X's and XLC's to shoot under an inch.

I'm a believer in paying attention to detail and praticing good reloading and shooting techniques. This isn't for everyone, and did I ever find that out the hard way, but you can't expect custom guns to fix everything with accuracy. I think the custom, high accuracy firearm, is more suited for the thorough type of hunter/shooter who knows and learns how to use it.

Every exacting detail to the load and maintenance of a rifle can effect accuracy. Most of all I think load development is key to shooting such groups and finding techniques that work consistently that are viable to the hypothesis that derived from the assumptions of "WHAT MAKES ACCURACY" towards your load.

Stereo-types are also a bad thing to stay away from with reloading different types of bullets and components. There are a a lot of bullets that are said to have more accuracy than others but then that is an average over hundreds and even thousands of opinions.

I'm a strong believer in that your OAL(Over-All length) affects accuracy 10-1 over powder charges(Those powder charges I'm refering to are still consistently weighed). But then again, that might change after 100 or more shooting tests.

Knowing your gun is "KNOWING YOUR GUN." A good shooting gun isn't shot with half-way maintained barrels and slapped together loads with inconsistent dropped powder charges and random manufacturer components even though the head stamp and bullet weight are the same.

Overall, the complaint, "I can't get a rifle to shoot under an inch," is easliy solved. Find people that can do it and compare what they do for shooting compared to you and when those differences show up, keep track of what techniques keep reocurring from shooter to shooter and then a good basis my present it self to try for your first hypothesis towards accurate shooting.