quote:

Idaho "Not another wolf thread until September....pleeeeaaaasssseeeeee....." Vandal

Awwww come on! What else is there to bitch about? Except for Bush's energy policy, or the lack of one!

quote:

When was the last time you asked your folks in congress to support the western senators and representatives in our fight to overcome these issues which are having a CAUSE and EFFECT on YOUR cost of hunting in WYOMING?

Well the Reid amendment passed with overwhelming support from all corners of the country. Now that you have the right to manage the wildlife within your states borders it's time to get with the program and eliminate those wolves.

IdahoVandal and Redhawk1, you both have completely missed the point I was trying to make. I will repeat it again.

I said,
I really am not addressing whether wolves should or should not be here,
what they do or do not eat,
whether they should or should not be delisted, etc., etc.
and for God's sake I am so sick of wolf threads I could just puke!

What I thought I said very clearly was....

IF there would have been 48.9 state's senators and representatives supporting the small number of our congress men/women who were opposed to the re-introduction of, protection of, and the non-de-listing of... when we were trying to stop the feds from getting these things I listed protected, re-introduced, or to stay on some protected list then the Game & Fish dept of WY would not be spending money to "manage" ( and yes I know they are not "managing" them yet) these predators BECAUSE THOSE PREDATORS WOULD NOT BE HERE! And those monies would be available to spend on other issues. But if the funds are being spread to these projects then new, fresh source of monies must be found somewhere else. Unfortunatly, one of the areas being considered is raising fees for non-resident hunting.

And no, I do not want to debate whether or not the Wy G&F is spending funds wisely because, frankly, I don't have a effing clue what they spend on new trucks, toolboxes for those trucks, or paper towels in their restrooms! If you do and you have a problem with it then move here get you a$$ appointed as a commissioner.

Damn I feel better now.

ES: I completely get your point...

I believe I made no reference whatsoever (in this thread) as to my personal feelings on the wolf reintroduction issue.

However, maybe I misunderstand your original point, but did you not compel citizens of states besides WY, MT and ID to ask their legislators to support the legislators from those states?

Again, people who live outside of Wyoming have nothing to do with Wyoming getting their management plan in order. Idaho and Montana are sueing the FEDS to be able to move forward even without Wyoming's hold up. I can only speak for myself, but I don't blame the rest of the country for the state of Wyoming's failure to move forward on this issue.

I completely agree, the wolf should be delisted as soon as possible...So if you live in Wyoming please call your local legislator and encourage them to move forward.....the rest of the country is waiting (Including ID and MT)......

Idaho Vandal

I think you're missing one element of this whole deal IV. The Wyoming legislature and game and fish proceeded with their plan, under the guidance of the USFWS, believing that there would be no hold ups with the plan being accepted. Unfortunately, some USFWS biologist in Washington DC who has probably never even seen Wyoming or a wolf for that matter, made the decision that the plan would not be in the best interests of the ESA, and gave it the thumbs down.

The people of this state want to move forward and get these things delisted more than anyone...it is unfortunate that any of this ever happened. Now that it has, folks here need to do everything in their power to get wolves delisted. So they can prepare themselves for the lawsuits coming from the bunny huggers!

MG

quote:

However, maybe I misunderstand your original point, but did you not compel citizens of states besides WY, MT and ID to ask their legislators to support the legislators from those states?

Again, people who live outside of Wyoming have nothing to do with Wyoming getting their management plan in order. Idaho and Montana are sueing the FEDS to be able to move forward even without Wyoming's hold up. I can only speak for myself, but I don't blame the rest of the country for the state of Wyoming's failure to move forward on this issue.

I completely agree, the wolf should be delisted as soon as possible...So if you live in Wyoming please call your local legislator and encourage them to move forward.....the rest of the country is waiting (Including ID and MT)......

No.

I am not talking about soliciting support for ANY current effort. And certainly not talking about the stupid lawsuit (which I hope never gets resolved and the Feds have to live with the bed they made).

I was pointing out that IF 10 years ago there would have been support we wouldn't be where we are today. Pure and simple. That is all the point I was making.

And I am including in my rant was not just wolves, but bears, mice, and what ever else was proposed for re-introduction (wolf), added to the protected list (mice), and kept on the protected list (grizzlys).

quote:

Originally posted by Madgoat:
Unfortunately, some USFWS biologist in Washington DC who has probably never even seen Wyoming or a wolf for that matter,

MG

Actually, Ed Bangs (the person of which you refer to)resides in Helena, MT and it would appear he has seen a few wolves in his time. Here is an excerpt from a short biography about him:

"I went to college for a couple of years in California and then I graduated from Utah State University with a degree in Game Management and later got a Masters degree in Wildlife Management from University of Nevada Reno - whose mascot happens to be the wolf pack. My first job was in Alaska working for the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge. Quite honestly, my initial responsibilities entailed picking up garbage and doing campground maintenance - and I didn't mind a bit because I was in Alaska. But I volunteered for a lot of biological programs and eventually became a Refuge Biological Technician and later the Refuge Biologist. My work involved caribou reintroductions, working with brown bears, moose, goats, sheep, wolves, lynx, marten, coyotes, bald eagles, and trumpeter swans. It was a great job. I got to be out of doors, snowshoeing, flying around in helicopters and airplanes, capturing and following animals. It was very exciting and rewarding.

I eventually decided that I wanted to come back and live closer to civilization and family so I moved down to Montana. (In fact a lot of Alaskans end up moving to Montana because Montana is the last remnant of wild country in the lower 48 states). In 1988 I took a new position with U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (USF&WS) managing wolves in northwest Montana. Because I had some experience with environmental impact statements (EIS), wildlife planning and reintroduction efforts, when congress directed the USF&WS in 1992 to do an environmental impact statement, I became the project leader for that multi-agency effort. I eventually became the project leader for the reintroduction of wolves in the U.S. and for coordinating all of the efforts between the U.S. and Canada. After that, the USF&WS designated me as the Wolf Recovery Coordinator to oversee wolf management in the northwestern U.S."

By no means does any of this make him any more special than anyone else, but I do believe that it is not fair to say that the decision was made by some biologist in Washington D.C. who has not seen a wolf........


IV

Elkslayer: Apparently I did misconstrue your point.

Wiedersehn.....

IV

Ed didn't make the decision, nor was responsible for going over Wyoming's plan. It was done out of Washington.

Also, there was a peer review done by 12 of the top wolf researchers/biologists in North America regarding the Wyoming plan. Yea, there were some questions concerning the plan, but the majority had a favorable response with the way Wyoming wants to manage wolves.

Check out the Wy G&F website for the lowdown.

MG

I stand corrected. Ed Bangs is merely the supervisor.

Here are the folks that did review the plans (WY, ID and MT):


U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service selected peer reviewers for the Montana, Idaho and Wyoming State Wolf Management Plans, October 2003. All are recognized authorities in wolf management and/or research, and each has 15-35 years experience with wolves, large predator/prey or livestock depredation issues.


1. Dr. Warren Ballard, professor and associate chair, Texas Tech University; retired Alaska G&F research biologist;editor, Journal of Wildlife Management.
2. Rod Boertje, Alaska Department of Fish and Game biologist; wolf and predator/prey research and management.
3. Mark McNay, Alaska Department of Fish and Game biologist; wolf expert involved in Alaska wolf management planning; helped plan capture efforts in Canada during wolf reintroduction in 1995 and 1996.
4. Dr. L. Dave Mech, USDOI Geological Survey Senior Research Scientist, Minnesota; leading world-wide authority on wolves; chair of IUCN Wolf Specialists Group.
5. Dr. Rolf Peterson, professor, Michigan Tech University; project leader Isle Royale Wolf Research; leader of Midwest Wolf Recovery Team.
6. Adrian Wydeven, Wisconsin wolf expert; lead state wolf biologist/management planner for Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources.
7. Dr. Paul Paquet, professor, independent researcher, wolf/carnivore predator/prey expert in Canada; conducted privately funded feasibility studies for NE and CA/OR.
8. Bill Paul, Minnesota USDA, APHIS, Wildlife Services; wolf control/depredation expert.
9. Jim Hammill, president, Iron Range Consulting & Services; just retired as biologist and manager from MI DNR; as the Michigan state wolf expert, he planned and led Michigan wolf recovery.
10.Dr. Dan Pletscher, professor, director of Wildlife Biology Program, University of Montana; predator/prey wolf expert, Boone and Crockett Club member.
11. Dr. Kyran Kunkel, Department of Ecology, Montana State University; Montana, Minnesota and Alaska research experience in wolves; PhD on wolf/ungulates in NW Montana.
12. Dr. Todd Fuller, professor, University of Massachusetts; editor, Wildlife Monographs; wolf/carnivore expert.

I cannot speak for whether or not they have been to Wyoming, but I think it is fair to say that these people have a small amount of experience with wolves.

IV

Here is a link to the 12 experts I believe you are referring to, and it is not fair to say a "majority" had a "favorable" response to Wyoming's plan.....

Peer Review of Wyoming's wolf management plan

IV

quote:

Montana is the last remnant of wild country in the lower 48 states

not for long, if people don't stop moving here.

Perhaps Im just uninformed, but Ive been getting the impression that Wyoming residents and officials alike want desperatley to get the feds off their front porch and to be able to manage ALL of their animals on their own. And that what they do NOT want is a half assed compromise on the issue that will leave them too restrained to manage effectivley.

I also believe that their increase in points cost for non-res is their way of speaking out about both the endangered managment issue and the Tollman issue. I say good on them, over hunting and greed has screwed up hunting here in Utah beyond reproach. At least WF&G seems to care about the wildlife. Everywhere you look there is way too much emphasis on $$$$$ and opportunity and no where near enough on sensible managment for the benefit of the herds.

quote:

(In fact a lot of Alaskans end up moving to Montana because Montana is the last remnant of wild country in the lower 48 states).

I have to disagree! Wyoming is just as wild. In fact the most remote location in the lower 48 is in Wyoming, according to national geographic!

Wyoming "wild"?

If you get rid of the wolves and grizzlies and cougars, what is left that is so "wild" about Wyoming or any of these places?

I guess if you consider cows, coyotes and certain families of insects to be wild, well then......I concede.

IV

I'm not for total erradication of large toothy critters, but it should be legal for some to end up as rugs! I totally agree that wolves, g-bears, lions, black bears and bigfoot make Wyoming a wild place. It would be nice to have all management of these critters in the state's hands.
As to some previous posts, yes the 12 experts were solicited by the USFWS to go over the three state's plans and provide their expertise...however, these 12 did not make the final decision to dump Wyoming's plan, neither did Bangs or anyone around these parts.

MG

Maybe Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and Colorado would be a little more wild if we could stop all this immigration!! We're starting to look like the west coast in places!!

Too bad the best ground is being made into condo's, golf courses, and retirement communities!!!



MG

I know Wyoming fish and game dept. is crawling with democrats. The other issue is how easily they have divided hunters, resident versus nonresident. Even in Wyoming those who hunt are not in the majority and if they lose the support of nonresidents, which the state is chiseling away at ceaselessly with the support of Madgoat and Kudutroll then it looks like the anti-hunters win. After all the Wolf and Grizzly bear are there to manage game.

And your point ricky?

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
.....Even in Wyoming those who hunt are not in the majority.....

Don't bet on it. There are a few yuppie types around Cheyenne and maybe Casper but from what I have experienced hunters and shooters are in the majority.

quote:

I know Wyoming fish and game dept. is crawling with democrats... Even in Wyoming those who hunt are not in the majority

Pretty strong statement for someone who doesn't breath Wyoming air!

And the "Mouth" of Texas calls me a troll!

I noticed on another AR forum a Texas 4 day mulie hunt going for $2,000,00/day w/a $2000.00 kill fee......bit pricey, eh? No wonder Texans look elsewhere to hunt. Maybe, if the East and West coasts took better care of their wild game and game habitat, more Western types would look more to hunt in those places and you, too, could raise the prices......but you certainly can't blame the Western states for trying to save what they have. Looking down from Alaska or right and left if you live in the West doesn't give any of us a very positive image of things to come.

Joe

ELKSLAYER, I do know one democrat! And he is pretty strange. I do know a couple of men that don't hunt, they did but are pretty old!!

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
I noticed on another AR forum a Texas 4 day mulie hunt going for $2,000,00/day w/a $2000.00 kill fee......bit pricey, eh? No wonder Texans look elsewhere to hunt. Maybe, if the East and West coasts took better care of their wild game and game habitat, more Western types would look more to hunt in those places and you, too, could raise the prices......but you certainly can't blame the Western states for trying to save what they have. Looking down from Alaska or right and left if you live in the West doesn't give any of us a very positive image of things to come.

Joe

It is obvious you have never been to the Eastern States. Here in Delaware we have a lot of deer and a lot on very nice deer. NO game management problem here. Also in Maryland the deer are huge and plentiful. Now I will not go out west or the mid west just to hunt deer. We have a great deer population right here, and I get 6 deer tags with my hunting license. 4 doe and one any deer and one Quality buck tag. Last year I filled 5 of the 6 tags and passed on a lot of them. I got a nice 10 point during shotgun season and a nice 7 point with my bow. In Delaware all for $12.50. In Maryland I passed on a lot of 8 point bucks due to having already shot a 10 point. But I did help the farmer out and removed 5 does from his over populated heard. Why go to the mid west. Nothing bad about hunting there except the expense of non-resident tags and air fair.

My only reason to want to hunt out of State or the mid-west or West is for ELK, Bear, Prong horn or Moose. I also like the great State of Alaska for Caribou. I am going back up there next year for another Caribou drop hunt.

Thats the trouble, you guys just don't get it. You hang out in your small towns with guys like yourselves and judge everyone as if they are like you. Does them and you a disservice. Resident hunter on nonresident hunter, both support hunting. Non hunters don't care and many who are too old to hunt aren't going to activly support your cause. So divide and fall in it boys.

And what cause might that be????? I invited two nonresidents to come elk hunting this fall. I told them both, put in and if you draw stay with us in our camp. I will go wether I draw or not. One is a retired school teacher, 42 years, the other is a retired engineer. Both in thier 70's. One is a complete stranger the other hunted with me last fall. Both opted for cow tags, which is almost a 100% draw. I pretty much told Redhawk and M16 the same thing.


Nonresidents are welcome in the community in which I live, there is an outdoor cookout down town for them right before deer season opens. Open barbeque put on by the merchants. I have met some great guys at the cookout. And not one wanted equal tags or equal price. They were just glad to be here.
So Ricky just keep on trolling!

Redhawk,

Sorry to disappoint but I was born and raised on the east coast. The only east coast states I haven't hunted are Mass., RI., and Fla. I hunted waterfowl on friend's farms before your geese were mostly golf course geese. I've hunted the ES of Md and it has some fine Whitetail.....there are a couple of other places in other EC states that do also.....but they are, by far, the exception to the rule....I really don't think you can talk about the EC's fine whitetail management without a smirk....you do have a GREAT whitetail population. I've guided and done depredation work in several EC states and have seen the great numbers....and if numbers are any indication, the EC has the finest whitetail in North America. I was on the EC in several states last year....I went to NJ two years ago for the bear hunt debacle.....more great management. I would leave New England out of this as those guys and gals know how to hunt and aren't joined at the hip to their 4wd or ATV. What I was trying to point out is that there is nothing on the EC that is not available to the Western guys......I understand why they want to keep it mostly for themselves....I have no problems w/hunters coming to Alaska......pay the price and take your chance......Redhawk, if you get here and I'm not in camp, look me up.....you can buy me a beer.

Joe

rickt300,

Yes, I do sit around in, actually near, a small town with people kinda like me.....that's because I don't want to be like you!!!!! You and your ilk that hunt over piles of bait behind high fences, shoot hogs with lights at night, etc., do more harm to our image as "hunters" with the nons than I ever will talking about it.....actions speak louder than words.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
Redhawk,

Sorry to disappoint but I was born and raised on the east coast. The only east coast states I haven't hunted are Mass., RI., and Fla. I hunted waterfowl on friend's farms before your geese were mostly golf course geese. I've hunted the ES of Md and it has some fine Whitetail.....there are a couple of other places in other EC states that do also.....but they are, by far, the exception to the rule....I really don't think you can talk about the EC's fine whitetail management without a smirk....you do have a GREAT whitetail population. I've guided and done depredation work in several EC states and have seen the great numbers....and if numbers are any indication, the EC has the finest whitetail in North America. I was on the EC in several states last year....I went to NJ two years ago for the bear hunt debacle.....more great management. I would leave New England out of this as those guys and gals know how to hunt and aren't joined at the hip to their 4wd or ATV. What I was trying to point out is that there is nothing on the EC that is not available to the Western guys......I understand why they want to keep it mostly for themselves....I have no problems w/hunters coming to Alaska......pay the price and take your chance......Redhawk, if you get here and I'm not in camp, look me up.....you can buy me a beer.

Joe

Joe, where do you hunt at besides all over in Alaska.

I went up to the Brooks range in the Arctic circle. What a great place. We saw well over 2000 Caribou while we were there and all of us got a good bull.

redhawk -

i don't presume to speak for ovis, but i think what he is trying to say is that we love having you guys come out to hunt, and hope that your experience is a great one, but PLEASE remember that it is our state, not yours, and we have to live here the other 50 weeks of the year. trying to change our ways and our laws to suit out-of-state interests (especially when they are not in the interests of the residents) leaves a very bad taste in our mouths. in short, we still have what you guys like to come out here for; don't ruin it.

i am of course not talking to you personally when i say this, but more to the whole nonresident community (and its lawyers) which seeks to teach us how to manage our affairs. obviously, what we have been doing is working, so don't mess with it.

What tasunkawitko said...

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
redhawk -

i don't presume to speak for ovis, but i think what he is trying to say is that we love having you guys come out to hunt, and hope that your experience is a great one, but PLEASE remember that it is our state, not yours, and we have to live here the other 50 weeks of the year. trying to change our ways and our laws to suit out-of-state interests (especially when they are not in the interests of the residents) leaves a very bad taste in our mouths. in short, we still have what you guys like to come out here for; don't ruin it.

i am of course not talking to you personally when i say this, but more to the whole nonresident community (and its lawyers) which seeks to teach us how to manage our affairs. obviously, what we have been doing is working, so don't mess with it.

tasunkawitko, I am not being a smart ass when I say this but Montana , Wyoming, Nevada and Arizona are crossed off my list of places to hunt. The real funny thing is I was raised in the mid-west (Colorado) and (Arizona)to be exact. I have family in both States still. I will go back to Colorado and hunt though.

How do you think that we don't understand you live it that State. You all keep reminding us and with a hearty welcome like that I rather not bother with YOUR STATE.

I personally NEVER treated a non-resident hunter or said anything remotely close to what you all have said to non-residents. I personally would spit in your face if you all spoke to me face to face as you do over the Internet.

You're we love having you come and enjoy your hunt, but don't make any waves speech is talking out of both sides of your mouth.

What tasunkawitko said...

Otherwise!

Redhawk1, I think you have lived back east too long. You've lost your western hospitality and good nature. Why I bet you can even understand those "Easterners" when they talk real fast!


Oh, just curious, since when has Colorado and Arizona been considered the mid-west?

I'm sorry that you nonresidents feel the way you do. I'm sure you'll find that the vast majority of folks here in our state enjoy having you guys out hunting in these parts and wish you success as well as a great experience, and would like to have you back next season.
Unfortunately now a days, it is no longer about "the hunt" but more about "killing the biggest antlered thing in the woods" for most folks. Our state has been challenged in court several times from those outsiders (USO) who have the $$ and time, demanding more access to land and high quality licenses out in these parts (to line their wallets as well). Add to it the overwelming nonresident support for wolves and many folks who live out here are making a stand for their wildlife. Once again, we love to have you guys out here...but there is no way we're going to get pushed around by folks who enjoy our wildlife one week out of the year, then don't give a rat's about it the rest of the time. There are many issues here we would love some outside support and we just don't get it. It leaves a bad taste in many folk's mouth here...
Add to it that our state wildlife agency is strapped for cash...you all want that giant bull elk, book deer, and full curl ram to add to your collection, but don't want to pay for it. Well boys, sorry to say it but managing for all this stuff is expensive. Like everything else now a days you're gonna have to pay to play. I think that includes residents as well.

MG

Good one Madgoat!

Here are some facts from Wyoming Fish and Game; I am mostly impartial to this whole res non-res deal but some of you may find this interesting:

-a significant majority of hunters surveyed SUPPORT having license revenue spent on NON_GAME species.

-residents spend nearly twice as much as non-residents (about $80 mil vs. $43 mil in 2003)

Here is the link to the official report:Wyoming Hunter Generated Revenue

Have fun dissecting that one!

IV

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
redhawk -

i don't presume to speak for ovis, but i think what he is trying to say is that we love having you guys come out to hunt, and hope that your experience is a great one, but PLEASE remember that it is our state, not yours, and we have to live here the other 50 weeks of the year. trying to change our ways and our laws to suit out-of-state interests (especially when they are not in the interests of the residents) leaves a very bad taste in our mouths. in short, we still have what you guys like to come out here for; don't ruin it.

i am of course not talking to you personally when i say this, but more to the whole nonresident community (and its lawyers) which seeks to teach us how to manage our affairs. obviously, what we have been doing is working, so don't mess with it.

tasunkawitko, I am not being a smart ass when I say this but Montana , Wyoming, Nevada and Arizona are crossed off my list of places to hunt. The real funny thing is I was raised in the mid-west (Colorado) and (Arizona)to be exact. I have family in both States still. I will go back to Colorado and hunt though.

How do you think that we don't understand you live it that State. You all keep reminding us and with a hearty welcome like that I rather not bother with YOUR STATE.

I personally NEVER treated a non-resident hunter or said anything remotely close to what you all have said to non-residents. I personally would spit in your face if you all spoke to me face to face as you do over the Internet.

You're we love having you come and enjoy your hunt, but don't make any waves speech is talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Am I missing something or is Redhawk1 trying to be a nice guy. I sure think he said a bunch of words about me that weren't too kind. What was that saying in the last election flip/flop. The way I see it Redhawk1 posted not to kind word to most residents who disagreed with him over the price of non resident tag now he trying to blame this on everyone else. Good job rehawk1 if you can do it maybe your trying to polish your image since your a moderator on graybeard. I give ward churchill credit he is still the same.

quote:

You're we love having you come and enjoy your hunt, but don't make any waves speech is talking out of both sides of your mouth.

redhawk - if i had any economic interest, your statement would be correct; however, from a financial point of view, i don't care if a nonres ever comes to montana.

the reason that i welcome nonres hunters and wish them well is twofold: the first is because as a fellow hunter, i feel it my pleasure and my obligation to give that guy the best chance he has to have a successful hunt, and help him in any way that "i" can. the second reason is that, as a montanan, i want that nonres hunter to see the best of this country from all sides, so that he can see the difference between what we ahve and what other states have lost. with that in mind, the nonres hunter would, in all likeliehood (sp), see the reasons that we want things the way they are, and to not "rock the boat." it's the restaurants, outfitters, hotels etc. with their hands out who don't give a flying f**k about what this state will be 200 years from now.

so think what you will, but don't EVER presume to think that i am like the people you are now used to dealing with in your "new home." you haven't been off hte farm so long that you have forgotten that people out here still say what they mean and mean what they say. when i welcome you to my state, offer assistance in finding a good hunting opportunity, and wish you well, don't cast your cynical eye on me. when i ask you not to make waves, i ask am asking it for a reason.