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A new sub-species of deer has emerged in the Commonweath of PA. Called Odocoileus Viginianus Pencilvaniaus Matchhuntersis. This new sub-species of deer are designed to be shot only with matchbullets, like the Matchking at ranges over 300 yds. to 3000 yds only please. When shot with said bullets, exit wounds are always softball sized, (never quarter, half dollar, silver dollar, golfball, hockey puck or baseball sized mind you). Sucess rates are always 100%, except in states other than PA, where overall sucess rates are very poor. Tools for hunting this new elliusive sub-species include, 1/4" MOA firearms (complete with gun carriage), a benchrest, sandbages or machine rest, rangefinders, and the ability to mumble backwards, the complete loading tables and ballistic drop charts from the "Bible" (aka "Sierra Rifle Reloading Manual" all editions). No camo need, and no cover scents are required, however, membership in a 1000yd club, and a vast imagination is recomended. This new sub-species of deer, was spawned by a new type of hunter, called a Matchhunter. Tired of simply poking holes in paper targets, they have breed this new type of moving brown target with 4 legs, and a fuzzy whitetail, that bleeds and dies instantly when shot with matchbullets. Who would have thunk such a thing was possible few years ago. Now with tongue firmly planted in cheek, I await the flames of your rightous indignation. Regards, Bob [ 08-04-2003, 00:54: Message edited by: Shadow ] | ||
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The amateurs go for the 1000yd deer ,in and around Williamsport Pa , but the experts go for the 1000yd woodchucks. | |||
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Don't forget that they are 100% one shot kills guaranteed. [ 08-03-2003, 21:46: Message edited by: Fjold ] | |||
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How coincidental! In Washington State, we've discovered a sub-species of deer on the Olympic Peninsula, called "Odiferous Vaginismus Penisanus Farofficus". It's extremely offensive scents keep hunters at a distance, necessitating use of Long Range rifles and calibers! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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It's kinda curious how that selective breeding works. I hear they are working on a Cape Buffalo that tips over from rimfires.........@ 700 long steps ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} Gabe | |||
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I really like this thread Shadow, but I strongly suggest you listen to what the man himself says...Quote by Boyd Heaton: Read about where a very good friend of mine shot a black bear at 700 yard's with a 200gr MK...On another web site a story about an elk shot at 2890 yard's using a MK bullet.Bullet went through BOTH shoulder's and left an exit wound the size of a volley ball.. Now Shadow... he said volley ball, not soft ball!! I also think that hunting preserves for this species can consist of a parking lot (I mean uhh vantage point) overlooking the deers habitat. Of course the vantage point will have electricity for laptops, cell phones, RV's, george formans, white trash kids toys etc. A hike up the road (10 yards) and you will find a quicky mart with the latest gun rags, wd-40, beef jerky, any pop you want, Navajo jewelery, scorpion paper weights, and wind proof lighters. Pets would be allowed so the kids can teach their dogs to catch loogies they spit at'em [ 08-06-2003, 08:54: Message edited by: smallfry ] | |||
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Awe shit guys that's funny!!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} [ 08-06-2003, 09:57: Message edited by: Marsh Mule ] | |||
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Smallfry, You're right of course. Must have gotten my balls mixed up. Of course it is possible that balls are smaller in PA, its very cold there. Regards, Bob | |||
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Seems to me what we have are a bunch of Ignorant people who like to talk about something they know nothing about...Its a shame... ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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Boyd, I was wondering when one of the "world famous" MatchHunters would drop in. Certainly you do not think that only you and your other gentleman "hunters" are the only one's that ever pulled a trigger on game over 400 yds? Can it be done, of course. People of far greater consumate hunting skill than you have done it. But does that make it a sound practice? You get your jollies sniping at deer at long range and I contended that this "practice" is nothing more that "match shooting" at live targets. Nothing you can say can change my mind. Skill in shooting you most certainly have, it is your judgement that I find wanting. Your "technique" involves no hunting, simply the precision of long range match shooting, as applied to live targets. Your "sport" is certainly legal in all 50 states I guess, about like abortion. That does not make it any less repugnent. I am condeming therefore, not out of ingnorance, but with a full understanding of your capabilities. Because a thing can be done, and done well, does not mean it should be done (think Auschwitz). You have no respect for the game hunted, the skill and beauty of the hunt, only of the kill. Because you can kill, further even than that of the most skilled hunter, this makes you superior. No sir, you give the word hunting and hunters a bad name. Your constant use of the title "assistant pit chairman", in a hunting context, does not lend credence to hunting prowess or judgement. A bench rest, match bullets and windflags, make for a good contest, but have no place in a big game hunt. I await your reply with great interest. Regards, Bob [ 08-06-2003, 22:57: Message edited by: Shadow ] | |||
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quote:The only thing I've killed beyond 300 yards or so Boyd was looking to shoot me. So I plead ignorant to blowing Bambi away at 1000 yards. I do know about shooting from the prone position at a target that far away. With open sights or scope. Aided by wind flags. And what happens to my MK when I misread wind or mirage. Or have the wrong dope on my rifle. Bambi is neither enemy or target. He deserves to be dispatched quickly. This cannot be done with a target bullet at ranges where the smallest gust will result in a wounded animal. Wally | |||
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Shadow, "POP QUIZ HOTSHOT" theres this MILLION dollar buck accross a canyon you have the tools and experience to make the shot! 1) Do you pass and let someone else get the most wonderful blessing in life, or 2) Make the shot knowning that there a only a few people in the world that could do it with your precission. I never ever had the experience to do that but by God it arose I would give it my all. Do you hunt for meat,trophies or both? Now come on be honest if you could get a buck like no one else has EVER seen before that would put it up so high in the record books you wouldn't try it!!!!!!! Now where I come from here in the Great State of TEXAS there are times when you you get a once in a life time buck and it maybe a 700 yards. How do you think they get to be that big, by being SMART staying away from the average joe hunters (my appologies to any hunters named Joe on this fourm). But thats the way it is! [ 08-06-2003, 21:49: Message edited by: CoonDawg ] | |||
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Coondawg, If the "MILLION dollar buck accross a canyon" (sic), is greater than 400 Yds. I'll pass, thank you. I've hunted for meat and trophy's, and a man's "got to know his limitations". The skill "knowing one's limitations" is acquired by years of failure, and being driven by one's ego, and not by one's brains. And I doubt even a experienced hunter, even one from the "Great State Of Texas", could tell a "million $ deer", from a cactus at 700 yds. Those are mine, what's yours? Bob [ 08-06-2003, 22:12: Message edited by: Shadow ] | |||
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The long range guys don't shoot million dollar bucks. From what I've seen, they prey on the does, fawns, and button bucks that wander out into the semi-open hillsides across the mountain from their benches. Million dollar bucks, hehehe ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} This is to all you MatchHunters:  [ 08-06-2003, 22:33: Message edited by: todbartell ] | |||
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Well well.. looks like I am moving up in the world.. I can now call myself a "Match-hunter" kinda has a nice ring to it... Kinda demands respect in a way... Sure beats being a Walmart hunter huh... Shadow, I am droping in on this thread without reading most prior threads that prevoked this self apointed intellegence on your part. Forgive me if i become redundant. What I find amuzing is that people often find it necessary to degrade and or denounce abilities, skills and techniques of another person in order that they in some childish, self appointed, self-serving and egotistical manor need to better themselves. In reality it is a desperate cry for attention and an attempt to hide what is obviously ones insecurities within ones self. Albeit, you are always free to voice your opinion and you have without question succeeded in a colorful and exravigant manor. Kudos to you. It is amusing that you actually think you have psychologically and intelligently slandered another persons chosen and prefered way to hunt. Which you obviously know nothing about or you would not have stated "it is not hunting". It does in all actuality involve a great deal of hunting, pre-season scouting, and paterning of known deer migrations, feeding and bedding routes. We all know this is your way of letting us know your limitations, inabilities and insecurities within the skills needed to be sucessful for this chosen way of hunting. have a great day.... your name Shadow... mmmm, not really .. you are obvious. | |||
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Sounds like a bunch of guys who shoot deer with a shotgun are commenting on this thread. Long range with a shotgun is slightly over 100 yards. Doug | ||
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Just a few questions... 1. How many people are killed each year by a long range hunter???? NONE that I have ever heard of... 2.How many people are killed by normal hunters??? Far to many to think about...... 3.How many normal hunters wound deer??? ALOT 4.How many LR hunters wound deer?? I bet alot less... Just think about that for awile and you will see that I am right... Just becouse YOU cant do it doesnt mean it cant be done.... just my 2 cents.... 6.5 Bandit | |||
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I could just ignore this, or post something with little meaning(might anyway), but I have to say at least something on the subject. I'm not here to judge people(Kings X in the Political section), but rather to share what little knowledge I may have, and to perhaps learn something along the way. I shoot long and short, shotguns and rifles. My limitations aren't yours or vice versa. I have 20/15 vision as an example, and you might be surprised what I can see at long range. I've dispatched big and or dangerous(people with guns) game 5'-1000 yds +, none have escaped. When I see folks passing judgement on others in this or any shooting forum I wonder if I'm listening to Democrat Trolls. I do not support ignorance in the field and intervene when possible and appropriate. I recognize superior capabilities and knowledge and if I can I adopt it. FWIW, to the best of my knowledge the longest shot resulting in a kill with a sniper rifle(human target) is in excess of 2700 yards. The longest shot I'm aware of on a prairie dog is around 2500 yards. Somebody who posted on this thread recently tagged a P. Dog at 1600 yards+. If you or your equipment aren't up to that, no big deal to me. If your attitude isn't up to it, fine. If you think for second I'm interested in making YOU shoot at hose ranges, you're wrong. If you think I'm impressed by your standards or limitations, wrong again. You do your thing, I'll do mine. Being a DEMOCRAT is nothing to be proud of in my opinion. Go try to control somebody else. | |||
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quote:And that right there, folks, is why this thread deserves to be put to rest. It will lead nowhere productive, by Shadow's own admission. | |||
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Amen Dan.You have the freedom to choose for yourself Shadow,not anyone eles.I'll send John Edwards your email address so he can contact you for his support. | |||
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Hey Shadow, Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and come on out West here for a few days. I'll split the cost of your travel expenses. You bring your favourite long arm and I'll ready mine. We'll have an unbiased team of observers drop us out in the prairie with one cartridge apiece and you and I can work this out between us at 1000 paces. ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} If you're going to call someone an unethical hunter, at least have the balls to do it to their face. You're like the punk that flips someone the finger and then quickly rolls up the window and locks the door. Go visit your mommy, you seem to be starving for attention. Or,.... book a flight. | |||
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Before I pass judgment on a person, or the way they hunt, I would make sure I knew all the facts. These LR Hunters know their stuff. The way they hunt is quite sophisticated, the equipment is up to par as well as their skill level. A lot of time money and rounds shot is required to acquire the skills needed. Before making comments check out their video you might learn something you don't know. Keep an open mind and learn. Frank D | |||
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Shadow my longest shot to date is 250 yards but that does mean I'm not trying for farthe out> Yes I can tell the difference between a cactus and a deer a 700 yards because I try to use the best equipment for the job . I'm not knocking your ability to shoot, wouldn't do that but last year I had to pass on a nice buck because the borrowed scope failed ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} at the wrong time, the deer was at about 400 yards.I was man enough to know not to take the shot for fear of wounding and not finding him. This year will be different. I know now that if he is within 500 yards he's mine. Like you said a man has got to know his limitations and that day I knew mine but I'm also changing them so that I WILL BE BETTER. Ever here somebody called an A$$ its either a whole one or they Half A$$ed, never 1/4 or 3/4s so if I have to be one I'm going to be a whole one for doing the most I can ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Shadow, Just remember who won the civil war and all those sharp shooters from Pa. DAMN YANKEES Mike | |||
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You know Shadow, old boy, i think you bit off a little more than you can chew here. That was a costly comment. You see, you made one mistake-- you forgot (or maybe never even heard) the old saying, "Those who lack toleration for others become the least tolerated." Wisdom might just dictate treading a little lighter next time. [ 08-07-2003, 11:21: Message edited by: sscoyote ] | |||
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quote:Retreever: This was all a source of chuckles until I read your post. When we remember who won the civil war, We can think of those sharp Shooters from Pa. However we can also think about those sharp shooters from south of the Potomac River. They put a lot of DAM Yankees in the ground also. Don't forget the South may have lost the war, but it was also considerably outnumbered and it took those " wonderful" DAM Yankees four years to subdue the south. We southern boys also buried a lot more of those union boys, then we buried our own southern boys. So who put more bullet holes in what side???? Long Live Virginia and Long Live the South!! Dam Yankees.!!! Now I have to live in Oregon, because too many of you Dammed Yankees and too many of the dam immigrants you let move into this country have moved to Virginia and ruined it. | |||
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Yumpin Yimminy Seafire!!! The Civil War is over. Get a life Dude!!! | |||
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If you believe the Civil War is over, drive past an Alabama Highway Patrolman with yankee plates on your automobile. A portion of your funds will be the freshest casualty. [ 08-07-2003, 12:20: Message edited by: RuffHewn ] | |||
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quote:Well if you were a walmart hunter and wanted a new title I guess you would feel like you are moving up in the world quote:Definitly sounds like a hurt man. I am not sure why, but everytime there is a Matchking or Long range hunting topic the same people take it soooooooo personaly, to a point of anger. Funny to me is that most of the posts are in the form of Jokes, HARMLESS HUMOR. But real men dont laugh, especally if they want to be recognized as real men. Someone offered money to pay half a trip out so the real man can beat him in a match... I am asking if you could give me that half of the money and we can just admit to everyone that you beat me. I am a student and dont always have alot of money. Though I consider myself a decent shot I doubt I could shoot better then whoever that was at even 400 yards. I asked this question before ... maybe someone in the LR world can answer it for me... 1st pick a known rifle/load from a .308 200grain matchking ... doesnt matter, this will be a cross canyon shot. 1612 yards. between 353-655 yards, while your bullet is traveling across the canyon there is a 12 MPH cross wind at 55 deg and a positive slope of 12 deg at 4 MPH, (assume north is 0 deg) this then changes to 8 mph at 47 deg with a positive slope of 10deg at 5 MPH for the next 227 yards, then 2 mph at 27 deg (opposite direction) with a 5 deg + slope at 3MPH, for the next 447 yards and the remander yardage 8mph with 0 slope at ) MPH again at 43 deg. what is your drift? What is the drop? What is it when your individual MPH values change by 25%? (not the total sum)? Also, what if your range estimation is off by +- 8 yards what would be the range of drop in inches? Also I would like to know between 1400-1700 yards the drift from a 3,4,5,8,mph in incraments of 25 yards... I seriously dont know the answer to these questions, and this would be a reasonable encounter in weather. The great part about it is I gave you known quantaties, something that is not always known in the field regardless of your equipment. One more thing.... when you run into a great buck by accident... and by accident I mean it is much to close to shoot... like 100-200 yards from the fence in the parking lot... do you back the truck up farther, or do you let that one walk? [ 08-07-2003, 12:28: Message edited by: smallfry ] | |||
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Smallfry, Thank you for singleing me out.. not really sure if you are accepting LR hunting, asking about LR hunting or just stiring the pot more... I seem to lean towards stiring the pot... Hey whats wrong with wally world.. I use one of there rifles for all my LR hunting.. especially the .222 for Elk at 1200 yards. Trust me pal I am anything but hurt by some half assed idiot calling Boyd, myself or any other accomplished LR hunter unethical, a non-hunter etc. etc. I bet truth be known this "shadow" has a skeleton or 2 in his closet. I see you are realativley new to this as most guys wouldn't make up a .308 load with a 200 gr. bullet and then launch it at a target 1612 yards away. "1612 yards. between 353-655 yards, while your bullet is traveling across the canyon there is a 12 MPH cross wind at 55 deg and a positive slope of 12 deg at 4 MPH, (assume north is 0 deg) this then changes to 8 mph at 47 deg with a positive slope of 10deg at 5 MPH for the next 227 yards, then 2 mph at 27 deg (opposite direction) with a 5 deg + slope at 3MPH, for the next 447 yards and the remander yardage 8mph with 0 slope at ) MPH again at 43 deg. what is your drift? What is the drop? What is it when your individual MPH values change by 25%? (not the total sum)? Also, what if your range estimation is off by +- 8 yards what would be the range of drop in inches? Also I would like to know between 1400-1700 yards the drift from a 3,4,5,8,mph in incraments of 25 yards... " Y A W N ... again... fire a sighter round and if conditions are that unpredicatable. Pass on the shot.... As afar as me getting out of my truck in a parking lot.... common really.. find me a parking lot out here where I hunt.. That question is easy to answer.. I pull out my Bowie Knife and belly crawl to about 75 yards then I would take a wind, temp. Bar. Pressure and altitude reading.. an throw the knife accordingly.. hows that....? | |||
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quote:What's the big deal? Just how big do you think a volley ball is after it has been shot with a 200gr MatchKing? | |||
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Interesting. The longrange hunters have boiled their arguments down to death threats(Holmes), being a democrat (as opposed to being a real lifelong Republican, NRA Life member, NAHC Life member, NSCA Life member), and looking for my Mommy (can't, she and dad are both dead). Bitting off more than I can chew? Don't know. I have never said your practice should be banned. I would not support such a thing. Make it illegal no. Does it take skill to shoot at long range? Yes. Does it take proper equipment? Yes. Equipment however, does not make a man. The bottom line, is I think, is long range shooting at big game ethical? The answer is both simple and complex. Yes and no. The following is my opinion only... It is ethical if...... You have at least a 95% confidence in making a kill on the initial shot. ( I mean nothing is 100% except death and taxes) You can follow-up the initial shot, and if blown at a possibly running animal. Terrain allows a follow-up stalk or shot if the beast runs-off. Terrain is most favorable for this in most of west, than in the east, generally. If the shot is taken with accepted hunting equipment, which would include equipment commonly used by miltary snipers. (who hump their own equipment, as opposed to depositing it out of the back of the truck) It is unethical (but not illegal).... If these conditions above are not met. If the choice of equipment includes, benchrest, machine rest or sandbags, windflags, matchbullets, rifles that weigh well over 15 lbs.,( like the .50 BMG) the use of optics that are not man portable, the use of tripods that are not man portable, et al. The use of Ranging shots. The use of such stuff ranks right up there with shooting game from helcopters, running down game with atv's, shooting from the back of moving trucks. Technology allows such thing's to be done, most are illegal. So equipment persay is not a refuge for the unenlightened. Many of the arugments made by LR Hunters are compelling, some are downright silly. Sound arguments: Skill, dedication, practice, and the use of the right equipment (within reason). Silly arguments: We never miss. We never have animals runoff. No limits, 700 yds is ok, as is 1000 yds., as is 1300 yds. as is 1800 yds. as is 3000 yds. There has to be a limit. There has to be a point where each of you say, that's too far. Equipment is not a subsitute for judgement. And skill and practice will only carry you so far, and no further. I am not trying to impose my moral jugments on you. Only you know what your limitations really are. But the constant stretching of the envelope is adolesent, and does all hunters a disservice. I've tried to make both a logical and adult case for my views. If name calling is best you can do, spare yourself, I'm not really interested in scatologial debate. If you don't argee, fine, tell me why, I'll listen. I'm really very open minded. I've be wrong before and I guess I'll be wrong again. Convince me with the power of your intellect. Regards, Bob | |||
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WyoWhisper, honestly... I do not know how you guys go about your hunting. I assumed you calculated, but you say you fire a sighter? | |||
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Shadow, I think the image you have in your head is that all long range hunters throw there gear in there truck go out and and sit int the middle of the field in their trucks.... This is far from the truth...Equipment is the key but most have light weight equipment just for hunting especially if they are planning on humping it to there location.. The 50cal's I have used in the Army are very light right around 8lbs.. there made that light so they can be carried and "sneek" into positions and have bipods on them.... You dont have to have a bench but they do help... When hunting from mountain to mountain there are alot more advantages then what you may think.. Lets say this there is a deer in the midlle of the mountain say 900yds out.. If your not sure what the bullet is goin to do becouse of wind light etc... Fire a spotter round about 50-75 yds to the right or left of the deer that far to the side of them wont even bother them 9 out of 10 times... Now I know whats goin on just from that spotter round.. Move back onto the deer and bang he is dead... Now lets just say this it happend to be a bad shot which can happen at short range and long range both.. But the LR hunter still has a advantage.. Most deer when they are hit will run down the mountain and NOT up even if they run 100-300 yds left right down and up (as long as they dont go over the top of the mountain) more then likely we can still see it to make a follow up shot... Now say you shot your deer at 100yds made a bad shot he runs 50yds and in most places he is now out of site and your stuck following a blood trial and hopeing that he dies shortly... Which depending on how bad the shot was he may die in a few minutes or a few hours... Which is better?? you choose.... One last thing When LR hunters go out and hunt there is at the very least 2 people one watchin the wash and callin the shots and the other is shooting... For this very reason is why most shots are done without wounding a deer or any other game you maybe hunting... 6.5 Bandit | |||
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Smallfry: Can't assertain your location, as I have no clue what is the Western Most Midwestern town. However, in defense of the guy from Wyoming, some of the Walmarts I have seen in the West, are a far cry from the WalMarts you see elsewhere in the country. The ones here in Western Oregon, along I 5 are the same as Walmarts everywhere else. Big on cheap shotguns, 30/30s, a bunch of cheap 22s and cheap scopes, Maybe a 270 and a 30/06. etc. However, I have seen one in Central Oregon, in Bend where Nosler is based ( Bend is a real Yuppie town by the way), but they have a great selection of firearms, great selection of scopes etc. I have been in others in my travels that had powder, primers and bullets available on top of it. So in some spots, being a Walmart Hunter is not a bad thing at all. ( Not in my town, but I wish it was!!). | |||
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6.5 Bandit, I do not have any real quarrel with your post. And I'm certainly not going to nitpick it. But a few questions and answers, just for clarification: 1) My prior comments were not intended to broadbrush all LR hunters. But I have seen Hunters in PA (and I'm not broad brushing PA, but this is where I observed these actions), unload their various matchgear out the back of trucks and setup to hunt. You apparently do not. 2) An 8lb .50 cal??? I thought the military was using Barretts, and McMillians and such, which are in the 20+ lb range. The only .50 cal I've ever fired in anger was a Ma Deuce, and that was solidly mounted to the deck. But just because I have not seen it, does not mean it does not exist. My congrats (and condolences) if you can fire an 8lb .50 cal from the prone. 3) Putting your argument the other way, using the same calibers, who do you think has the greatest chance of a one shot kill, me @ 100 yds. or you @ 900 yds. if your honest, and believe you are, there is only one right answer. Now I am not denigrating your prowess @ 900 yds. It is further than I care to shoot. But as you well know the variables are infinite. Can it be done, yes. Has it been done, yes. Is it repeatable, well, yes after a fashion. If all that is true, should it be done as a matter of routine? Can you get no closer? If 300 yds is a chip shot, to you, and 500yds. a piece of cake, then logically you must shoot tighter groups @ 900 yds. If your answer is, no, that you shoot tighter groups @ 300, than @ 500, and better @ 500 than 900 yds. Then how close to the margin are you? Shooting 3" groups @ 300 is very, very good (under field not match conditions), as is 5" @ 500, or 9" @ 900. If you can drill a 9" plate, 9 out of 10 times, @ 900 yds, under field conditions, than you certainly can hunt at that range, with my respect and blessings, for whatever their worth is to you, sir. Regards, Bob | |||
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quote:I'd like to hear more about your experiences shooting the 8 pound 50BMG. Wally | |||
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Shadow, seems like you're backpedaling a bit here. You're starting to approach the "issue", with a little more tact-- a little, mind you. Seems to me that may have been a little more appropriate in the beginning, rather than entering like a bull in a china shop. I mean, think about it, do you really think you have any credibility left when you assume disrespect? I'll never forget what my daddyo used to say of old, "People have to earn my respect." But you know, truth is people earn disrespect by the way they conduct themselves. The issue that these guys have with you has nothing to do with hunting, ethics, whatever. You've destroyed the foundation for communication right from the get-go. I know i'm wasting my time, because if you haven't learned it by now, you're not going to. Think about it some after the emotional response this comment will elicit has worn off some, and see if it's not true-- have you ever known a dipstick that knew he was one? Of course not, justification of behavior is a powerful force for the human ego. | |||
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