A M E N .... !

Shadow,

A death threat?? Hardly. Simply a response to someone who has unjustifiably attacked me with a slanderous air.

This is how it was done in the days when man had honour and was not kept captive by silly laws induced by the politically correct sheeple.

My challenge could be construed as your suicide if your intent is to simple stand there. But then, I cannot dispatch an unarmed man under such circumstances so you're safe there, as well.

In a subsequent post you ask the LR hunters to convince you with their intellect. Now I'm a bit confused. My intellect recalls your words from your third post in this thread, [Q]Nothing you can say can change my mind[/Q], and I wonder about your stimuli.

But then, I have much better things to do.

sscoyote,

Backpeddling nope. I been consistant across the board. BIG GAME at Long range (which could be 300, 500, 600 or more, you pickit) with hunting equipment OK, Long range @ BIG GAME with match equipment, not ok, or at least it is not hunting.

Here one of your posts, on the thread called "Texas Heart Shot".

sscoyote
One Of Us
Member # 10182

posted 03-04-2003 13:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know much about the big game thing, but you know the most explosive shot placement on a prairie dog i've ever seen is right up the heart of Texas, maybe because that's where they're the most solid?

Not much help here for the big game boys but just thought i'd stick that one in (pun intended).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 353 | From: pueblo.co | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged

Don't know much about "big game"??? Then what in the hell are you talking about, sir. Your profile states you are a user of Single Shot pistols, and a varmint hunter. Varmints aren't big game, and pistols, well I guess your not shooting at 900 yds @ an elk.

Maybe a closet LongRangeBigGame hunter????

Also saw your positive comments on Nosler Accubonds, those sir, are not matchkings. So, in summary nothing I've said applies to you.

You use fair chase, you practice, you use Hunting bullets, I find no reference to you benchresting big game on purpose, using wind flags, big eye telescopes, et al.

In short nothing you've posted here at AR should get your panties in a wad over what I said.

Oh yea, and a writer. And when your editor said "no" to an article about long range hunting, did you call him a dipstick?

Write this one up, smart ass.....

The "sighter shot" approach involves a spotter to insure observation of the "splash" to correlate POA to POI. It is used at very long ranges and/or as is often the case, in flukey wind conditions such as those found in hilly or mountainous terrain. It is not difficult to see this with proper glass.

The first shot to kill approach is necessarily range limited but can be applied to distances beyond 1000 yards on targets as small as P. Dogs.

Both approaches use range finders, either optical or laser, or both. Hand portable ballistic calculators are often used, data pooled from range sessions and/or verified by same.

Some may use the .50 BMG for this, but it is not a cartridge of choice for the savvy.

The fellow who designed and builds Hall actions(what is his name? ) has rifles with water jacket cooling systems and makes first round hits on prairie dogs in the neighborhood of 1200 yards. Guess that's a bit extreme for my capabilities, not his. Or his wallet.

I note that many folks that criticize this activity are from the East. Many that do it are from the West. Wonder if that's because on a clear day in the Rockies you can see 250 miles?

My remark about Dems(what a slam! Sorry.) is based on my perception that control is the essence of the Democratic Party. Control the masses, because they aren't responsible enough to control themselves. For their part, perhaps...

I'm done with this thread.

Shadow, did you expect to come in to the china shop like you did, and not break a few plates. You yourself realized you were going to receive a nasty commentary, and elicited it for that matter. As far as closet long-range big game shooter goes, there's nothing in the closet at all about that. This is something i've been investigating the efficacy of for awhile now. I have enuf shooting experience to know that those guys at longrangehunting.com know their S--- man! Truth is in a lifetime of shooting i've only rarely seen shooters that are as committed as those guys are, and many of them they are cutting edge as far as their chosen discipline goes. There are some things to be learned from these guys, if you're insightful enough to recognize it. I don't always agree with what is presented to me anywhere i go in life-- but one thing i do know, and abide by-- treat others the way you want to be treated-- PERIOD! When i see someone bullying others i don't like it.

Oh, and that editor approached me respectfully when he turned down that article, and i'll always have the utmost respect for him for having the sensitivity to do so.

My previous comments stand as stated.

Shadow, so your not running this thread just for kicks, as I originally thought. And it's good to see you give credit where credit is due.

However if your argument is one of ethics, then your premise is a red herring. For technology ultimately has nothing to do with ethics, else we would be back in the dark ages without the benfits of today's technology, e.g. medicine, etc. For the purpose of this discussion the ethical question ultimately boils down to:

1. Is taking the life of the animal morally right as defined by our standards of belief. Those standards typically being the society we live in and support, and our belief system, and our own conscience.
2. Is the manor in which we take that life morally right as defined by the same standards.

Hunters generally break this down into a personal standard (an ethical yardstick if you will):
"A sanctioned, humane kill for the right purpose"

Whether or not we make the kill at 100 yards or at 2000 yards we still measure ourselves by this yardstick (which implies self-imposed limitations when we cannot reach a desired level of adherance e.g. when we think we cannot make the good shot).

We could apply this yardstick to any type of animal treatment, whether we're hunters, laboratory technicians doing animal testing for medical research, or in the pest control business.

Technology is only a tool given to us to achieve an end. It is not the technology itself, but how we use that technology that is governed by our ethics.

AB

Outstanding post, AB.

Clarity, brevity, and reality.

Bravo!!

From Holmes

quote:

---

Simply a response to someone who has unjustifiably attacked me with a slanderous air.

This is how it was done in the days when man had honour and was not kept captive by silly laws induced by the politically correct sheeple.

---

Slanderous air, you sound hurt. What you really meant to say is that real men ought to shoot at each other over a post on an internet message board? So laws against murder one are silly? Did you grow up next to a chemical factory? Did your mama not love you? Seriously man, get a grip.

Not all of us have closed minds on this issue, and you influence no one with that childish ludicrous language.

Gabe

AlbertaBound

His point to me is one of ethics, but I don't think that the tools or technology have anything to do with it. I think the point he made, which I also agree with, is that shooting at game at extended ranges is childish and an immature stunt. Hunters want to get closer. The guys that pound away from ridge to ridge don't even desire to get closer. They want to prove to someone else that it can be done. What they don't comprehend is that maybe what they are trying to do defeats the purpose of hunting.

An argument parallel to Shadow's is made by many turkey hunters. They don't desire to build or buy a shotgun that can kill reliably at 60 yards because they feel that if they can't get the bird to 30 yards they didn't defeat that bird and as such are not deserving to kill it.

If a guy is trying to get closer and can't, that's one thing. If a guy is shooting long distances just for the sake of doing so, the exercise has become a glorified dick measuring contest. Silly and juvenile.

Gabe

I have seen the light!!!! I used to be one of those real long range hunters, but following this argument, I have decided I want the other extreme to be a real man.

I will wear a ghillie suit and lie and wait with a knife and give 4 legged quarry an OJ across the throat. Then I will cut out his heart as a victory reward and share his soul.

Well well well shadow this is a hot one.Match bullets on live game never. A game king, you bet or a nosler balistic tip, you bet. long range that is up to the one pulling the trigger. Only when that time comes should the one pulling the trigger make that choice.

Hunting is defined different for different people. Some it is a bow and arrow, some handguns, some rifles. I don't think the equipment makes it hunting or what is long range. The better the equipment the further the range. Whether you walk all day or the animal walks up to you while your eating lunch it is still hunting.
Also most hunters I know don't use their guns very well, some of them are great hunters, just not great shots. My dad had some friends that took up muzzle loading and they hit about 5 elk for every one they get! That is anywhere from 75 to 200 yards for them. It's just an excuse to hunt in an earlier season in the rut.
I'm just starting the long rang hunting, but my furthest shot on a deer is 550 yards, and that was 7 years ago. The distance isn't the important thing to me and I plan on shooting to my ability if I have to. I don't control the distance and if I can get closer I will. Your ability and equipment control the range you can shoot in a hunting situation. This is a very small group of hunters that can do this. I do know a lot of hunters that just lob bullets too with no idea of how far it is and they really think they can hit the deer or elk (this is the sad part, sometimes they do wound them).

Anyway, from what I've seen and read here the guys doing the long range hunting are a special group and know what they are doing. This has been going on for a long time and isn't new either. I've talked to guys doing this in the 50's and 60's at ranges over 2000 yards.